Which recoil model do you prefer?

[SeaVee 10]

Optiojn 2.

As many others have said I like the recoil effect but as others have said it needs to be toned down.

Below is your's truly firing an M1A (civilian semi-auto version of M14) as fast as I can pull the trigger emptying a 20 rd mag. Look at the muzzle rise - or lack there of. Admittedly I'm using a USCG muzzle brake vs the standard flash suppressor and it does reduce recoil but the point is even with the .223 caliber weaps in OA - which have FAR less power than 7.62X51 (.308) the recoil effect in the game is too exagerated.

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Edited July 3, 2010 by SeaVee

[Panzer Jager 10]

the recoil effect in the game is too exagerated.

Not only that but some of the recoil is wrong. For example, in the game, the 7.62x51 M14 and FN FAL have far less recoil than 5.56x45 M4A1. It's rather absurd considering that not only do they actually fire cartridges that produce more recoil, but for balance purposes you'd think they'd have more recoil to offset their superior damage.

The .50 BMG M82A1 also has tons of recoil in-game, but in real life the muzzle brake and free-floating barrel make the recoil more like 7.62x51 battle rifles.

[sbsmac 0]

As a confirmed PVP player I like the new effect since it (quite rightly) reduces the effectiveness of full-auto fire at long-distance. For ArmA2 there was very little incentive to use burst or single-shot when there was no real accuracy penalty.

[Arklight 0]

Pls No option like screen shake or stupid slider :j:

Kick back is definitely realistic

Kick-back is realisitc, the "kick-up" modeled in the Beta is not.

[SaBrE_UK 0]

They really should add the ArmA1 kickback effect, unless they took it out for performance reasons or something... the rifles just don't feel right, not that I have any real rifle experience.

[hellfire257 3]

Yeah its too much. I like it but I really do think its too much.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Kickback is back in with this beta.

Is anyone who doesn't like the new recoil actually trying to combat the rise while it is actually happening?It is very easy to keep a small circle from a large distance by moving the mouse just a small amount.If I spray without control the rise then the distance is huge and it feels wrong when I have to now move my mouse a large distance.It feels as though maybe the mouse is sped up when you press fire?Be nice to hear the devs opinions on all this.

[stilpu 0]

Took a look at the beta files, seems the recoil config wasn't changed from official release. Since in default ArmA2/OA, re-zeroing happens automatically, the recoil config has no value to actually bring the muzzle back down(wards) - segment B0' from this thread:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=89724

Presumably, they'll add the muzzle re-zeroing config entry and everyone will be happy. I've been trying to change the config myself, but I'm having some issues convincing the game to use my recoil definition.

[twisted 127]

as a matter of interest for those who actually have experienced the new recoil - which rifles do you find it too much on?

Edited July 3, 2010 by twisted

[Panzer Jager 10]

which rifles do you find it too much on?

Everything. Especially on full-auto, but it's too high for most especially the .22 calibre Rifles (5.56x45 and 5.45x39 weapons.)

It also seems to get much higher as frame rates drop, so while it may seem right when the game is at 60fps (desert map) it goes way up when you start putting lots of enemies in a visually demanding zone.

[otrebla_snake_ita 2]

The idea isn't bad but I think the recoil should be lighter. However I didn't try the new recoil + betapatch because I don't have OA

[Wolfstriked 11]

The weapons have same recoil as before.They did not add any more recoil they just removed the auto return to original spot.I agree it feels bad when fps drop.Between the stutter and the weapon jerk it feels more unsmooth.But I really like it at constant 60fps.

[jpinard 10]

I keep waffling...

The main thing I don't like it that the recoil is like going up a ladder. I think it would be better if it just shot all arond the aiming point, instead of going horizontally. Right now with an SAW or any machine gun our response is like that of a girl firing an automatic weaopn for the very first time. ENds up shooting striahgt into the air. I'd like to think that since in the game we're somewhat "trained soldiers" it wouldn't be like that. Or maybe have ti scale with the "skill" level the individual has (or does it aready?)

Edited July 4, 2010 by jpinard

[Fox '09 14]

there is nothing wrong with the new recoil model, just the configs. Go play with RH M4A1 and then go play with the BI M4A1, and tell me what is better.

[twisted 127]

http://tinypic.com/r/2yod6kl/6

recoil on basic tacistan sampler mission.. is this considered too much?? didn't feel tricky at all. especially when crouuched and prone. but each to their own. fps between 20-50fps.

of course, if people are using scopes to fire full auto then it would be hard to control , sort of as it should be with full auto.

Edited July 4, 2010 by twisted

[Wolfstriked 11]

there is nothing wrong with the new recoil model' date=' just the configs. Go play with RH M4A1 and then go play with the BI M4A1, and tell me what is better.[/quote']

Holy crap RH M4A1 rocks with new recoil and screen shake.It has massive kickback effect and coupled with new recoil it might be the best weapon I ever fired in a game.Looks very much like what I see from PR:BF2 mods.I love it and also the sounds are amazing!!That said the MK14 has way too much recoil IMO.Yes its a 7.62x39 rifle but its way overdone and especially now with the harder to handle recoil.1-1/2 to 2 times what the 5.45 rifles recoil at right now would be sweet...it feels like 3 times what the 5.45 recoils at though.

I must say again though,the new screen shake adds so much feel to the weapons but IMO is done wrong.I want a powerful weapon to feel just as powerful while prone as while standing.Some of the weapons look like they are gonna explode when standing.I say choose a screen shake setting for each caliber and leave that for all 3 positions....letting the recoil be the deciding factor in how hard it is to shoot the weapon.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Maybe it should be a toggle just like the "camera shake" recoil. I don't enjoy the camera shaking recoil, so I disable it, which makes recoil like it was in ArmA 2 - and ArmA 2 recoil with this new viewkicking is awesome.

No. Camera shake is just a small immersion effect, it doesn't really prevent you from shooting good. This added recoil, kickback, climb is something that seriously would affect your ability to shoot good - something that most here seems to agree we are able to do far to well. In a PvP those who "wants to win" will win simply by turning it off. It would be like turning off ballistics because you want to shoot straight. For those who wants realism, it is no longer fair, so they're pretty much forced to turn off a feature they love just to make it fair. Not a good solution. There will be mods that can eliminate these effects, but they can be denied by servers who doesn't want this "cheat".

If you thought the DMR was bad in Arma2 -- imagine the Mk17 as a reiteration issued to all special forces soldiers. Often with a GL and thermal sight from the getgo.

End of the line is this: If you can't handle the new recoil of the Mk17 -- use a 5.56 weapon.

Indeed, the DMR became a highly problematic asset in Arma2, typically in all game modes that had it freely available. There should still be some climb and kickback on the 5.56, and maybe even smaller on the 9mm SMGs (eliminating caliber alone as the driving force?). For 7.62s the climb and kickback should be "significantly annoying" to make 5.56 weapons a preference for faster shooters.

There should be a random deviation from the main point of the first shot (side, below, up, at an angle, etc.), not a constant pitch up. In addition, the rifle staying "pointed up" after the shot is, to quote Monty Python, "silly".

Agree with the first part, sort of. Maybe a 50% chance of a "predetermined direction" (i.e. right and up), with a 50% chance of going wherever else? You will need to resight (especially true for higher calibers and even more so for standing up). Not sure how to answer the second part. If it stays there, people will have to resight. If it comes down automatically (and fast), it defies the purpose of having it there in the first place. It it comes down too slow, it will just appear annoying.

@Beagle: Fully agree with everything you say. Also, we're not at the range in Arma, we're at war, being shot at, adrenaline running, got the shakes, scared. I don't see why we need range conditions, we kill far too easily and there is no fire fight. How many bullets are wasted in real life before you get a kill?

I don't like the new recoil how it is now. As mentioned before a bit correction after each shot is fine but the way it is now I have to pull my mouse off the table to correct it. Reduce it and don't let it stay completely in the sky. Even when i increase the sensibility of my mouse I have to pull it down half the mousepad to correct it. After two or three shots I run out of mousepad lol

My suggestion is to connect this with the difficulty if possible. That would be great. This way everyone can choose his own recoil.

Ok, running out of mousepad space after three shots do sound like an issue. Shouldn't have to be like this, at least not consistently. Maybe a completely random direction would be best in this respect? But I kind of disagree with hooking it up to difficulty. It would be awful if you join a server with higher setting than you're used to and the weapon suddenly behaves wildly. Also see above.

i hope to see the gun going back to original level after each recoil rather than staying up.

Uhm, that kind of defeats the purpose of having to re-aim your shot.

Pls No option like screen shake or stupid slider :j:

Kick back is definitely realistic

Not having tested it, I can't really comment on how it feels like, or if it's realistic. But yeah, no option and no slider is a must! PvP would break down and everyone would feel "forced to turn it off" - I guess that's the cost of competitive game modes - if it can be exploited, it will be. Hell, it's even a problem in coops :(

I know what I see in a video, and I don't like the idea of dragging my mouse halfway down the pad just to keep a level aim after each shot. Shooting quickly becomes a nuisance.

The "mouse pad thingy" is why I suggest a more random pattern to where the gun goes. Shooting quickly is supposed to be more of a nuisance. The speeds we fire (and hit without reaim) with our assault weapons today are unacceptable and makes the game look like an action shooter. It kills the realism that most of us love, and for those who doesn't want it there are alternative games.

If you have recoil like that (or even mild version of it) you cannot play against AI like that. Even if you have AI on lets say 0.50 skill and precision, once they lock you they sprey on spot which you cannot do already. AI should be equaly effected as well.

And last thing is, meny people cant play with fully playable frame rate (under 30-40). So it is hard enough to aim with current recoil. It would make it impossible with that recoil, the mouse is moving so slow then that AI on 0.4 would rape you.

Agreed, AI should maybe react to accuracy setting better than now. And setSkill array (per individual) should have greater impact. I really don't want my AI sniper opponent to be something to ignore.

Maybe a solution is to make recoil framerate dependent? I agree at least for Arma2 that when framerate goes too low, I'm really not capable of fighting too well. I really don't know how to address this in a fashion that would really work. Anyone?

Not only that but some of the recoil is wrong.

The .50 BMG M82A1 also has tons of recoil in-game, but in real life the muzzle brake and free-floating barrel make the recoil more like 7.62x51 battle rifles.

I expect recoil values to be tweaked as we go along to address issues like that, I'm not too worried.

I've fired 7.62x51 battle rifle a lot of times, and even though it was pretty much uncontrollable standing up on full auto unless you really put some weight on in (dual wielded on full auto was particularly fun :D, but unfortunately I only got to watch this instead of doing it myself), it did not appear anything like this:

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I don't think he was able to hit two targets at 1000m like that, the way we currently do in Arma.

@twisted: Awesome video, clearly showing that using lower caliber weapons is not to be feared at all.

@Wolfstriked: Sounds very promising!!

--- Phew, that was a mouthful :) ---

One thing, what about MGs and SAWs? Are they still "usable" when prone? MGs (M240 and the like) should climb out of control when standing, but when prone I think even todays "climb" is too much. I prefer the ACE bipod simulation, since the weapon can be used over greater distances as means of suppression. Todays M249 SAW is okay while prone, but should be more controllable in any stance. It is the gun of choice if you have it available. It is the main fire weapon of any infantry squad. I consider the rest of the fireteam "SAW protectors" :p Any thoughts on how light and medium machineguns behave with the updated model? I realize we now have packable M2s, but hopefully a weapon squad with medium machine guns aren't rendered completely useless.

[Beagle 684]

Albeit I really like the new recoil simulation in the beta, I wotn use it anymore in MP until it has found its way into a official patch...right now youre at a real disadvantage against players not using it. The auto recenter aimbot gives too much of a unfair advantage in full auto mode right now.

Single fire is still very easy to do in CQC even with new recoil.

Going full auto is something you think twice with the new recoil simulation.

This corresponds now with what we where trained in boot camp (using G3 7.62x51 rifles)...never use full auto (nicknamed "Freundschaft" = "friendship" as full auto on trigger switch was labeled "F") at targets further away as 50 meters.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Beagle

[twisted 127]

One thing, what about MGs and SAWs? Are they still "usable" when prone?

very much so. very easy to control when prone with the new recoils still. standing you have to fire in bursts more to control. but crouched and very much so prone there is control. BIS has done very well.

[Derbysieger 11]

When I played with the betapatch for the first time I didn't like the new recoil at all. But now after a playing with it for a while I'm starting to like it. I set up some targets in the editor and tried different weapons. Some feel really good as it is now. For example I love shooting with the M24 Desert or the M110. It just feels good. Even though the recoil of the M24 and the M107 should be little bit less when you're prone. Machineguns are fine when fired prone. I really like it that you can't fire them in full-auto when you're staying. The M249 is a dream fired prone.

The Mk16 is ok but I would like a little less recoil when fired prone. Same goes for the Mk17.

All in all I'm really starting to like the new recoil but it needs a bit tuning on some weapons.

[Brainbug 10]

In general, I prefer the new way because it is more real than the old one. However it definitely needs some tuning until it is good.

The direction of the deviation should not always be "up", but different depending on the weapon you use. Some move up, some down (often a matter where the gas exhaust is located for example), some slightly sideways. Some rifles don't move at a certain direction because they are quite well centered, but they still move with each shot.

What if the direction was more randomized, i.e. one shot moves the barrel up, the next one down and left, the third to the right etc., also the strengh of the movement should be slightly different with each shot.

And it should also go back a bit. Not all the way, but slightly. If you hold a rifle, the shot will kick against you muscle tension and you will have a spring effect, as a reflex you automatically move the rifle back into the position it had before. But only roughly, sometimes it should correct only half the movement, sometimes this reflex should overcompensate. And the direction should also slightly deviate, so that you don't move exactly to the point where you aimed when you had released the shot. Good to see in the .50 firing video that was posted above, the rifle goes up and the man moves it down in a countering reflex move further than necessary.

So maybe a good way would be to maintain the strength of the recoil as it is now, but implement a move back of about 50% to 150% (random amount varying with each shot). And then randomize the directions. I think that would come closer to reality. And it had the advantage that you can shoot full auto: You would loose a lot of accuracy, but the random directions and random correction amounts mean that you roughly stay in one direction and don't look up in the sky after half a mag (without user/mouse correction).

Of course this has to be adjusted to the rifles, a M107 would react slower (because it is so heavy) than a pistol (which would get a big but fast movement) and so on. And a rifle that in reality e.g. does kick up and left would get these directions much more often and more pronounced than the others. Maybe this can be achieved by giving them two functions: the one I described als base, and another weapon specific one without randomization that says "do the base function slower" or "add X+20 and Y+10 to each shot" or something like that.

The result on screen would look somehow like this (if no mouse movements by the user interfere of course):

Solid arrows mean movement caused by the shot, dotted arrows mean counter reflex movement. First shot is red, second blue and so on.

Any opinions on this idea?

Edited July 4, 2010 by Brainbug

[cole 0]

If I could only take back my poll vote..

The new recoil completely kills SP. Before I'm even able to take down one AI, the others already exactly know my position and have me in their sights. Just great..

[TangoRomeo 10]

I like the new concept requiring more player input. Suggestion:

Full-Auto -> leave as is.

Semi-Auto -> tone down a tad.

[Dreepa 10]

What nemesis says.

It is not a concient choice to move your gun down. You do it automatically, especially a trained soldier. Though what still happens, is a slight offset due to the automatic and conditioned muscle reaction. So the weapon should not climb, but leave the crosshair at a small random offset tot he original point aimed at.

[Beagle 684]

New one, getting 25-30% (especially at the AK's) toned down and optionally randomizing the direction that the weapon moves to when firing.

No problem at all as you can always tone down the A.I. precision in SP.

with this setting and new recoil you will have firefight with a more real duration and outcome becaue neither you nor A.I. can any longer snipe with ironsight assault rifles on the walk.

skillFriendly=1;

skillEnemy=1;

precisionFriendly=0.33;

precisionEnemy=0.33;

Have fun!

Edited July 4, 2010 by Beagle