War with Iran.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Iran is far from being a democracy...

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

Americans hate muslims. They will never allow muslims to live in America under muslim laws.

It will take as long for them to do that as it did for them to allow black men on the white mans bus.

please, you do not speak for Americans.

say something like, "I believe...", or "I think..."

or you could just stop your hateful rhetoric and move on to another topic.

[Derbysieger 11]

When the Iranians regime got overthrown, America and Iran had reason to fall out with eachother.

Americans had backed the losing regime at the cots of many iranian lives and much hardship, and the American Embassy was overran by the Iranians people.

Iran and Israel however had notne of these issues between them. The onyl reason Israel fell out wioth Iran was to stay in with America.

Iran is a muslin stae.

israelis a jewish state.

Both are religious states.

Both are democracies,both are surrounded by Arab countries who do not like them.

None of the many beefs they have with their many neighbours are with each other. Some of the neghbours surrounding them that they do have beefs with are the same neighbours surrounding the other that they have beefs with too.

They have common enemies.

This all makes them natural allies.

Americans hate muslims. They will never allow muslims to live in America under muslim laws.

Iranians do not hate jews, they do allow jews to live there under jewish laws and always have.

Having common enemies doesn't make you natural allies. That's just wrong. Maybe that's how the US handled things very often in the past but it doesn't mean this is a wise thing to do and applies to anyone. Especially if there are two states of different religion. No matter if they are surrounded by common enemies or not.

And do you think Israel is willing to forget about the ~40000 jews that were killed after the islamic revolution? I think not. Jews and christians don't have the same chances like shiites in that country.

The conflict between Isreal and the muslim world wouldn't stop if the United States suddenly weren't a factor anymore. No. Chances are that Isreal will be wiped off the map if western powers wouldn't care anymore or lose the ability to protect Isreal. A nuclear war wouldn't be a far-off szenario in that situation.

There live many shiites in the region around israel and jerusalem is not only a holy town to christians and jews but also to all muslims. And this makes Isreal an enemy of Iran and not a natural allie.

It sounds more likely to me, that far form them having a beef with non muslims, you likely have a beef with muslims.

Where did you get that from? I don't care which religion people believe in. I just have a problem with fanatics of any kind. Religious or not doesn't matter. The problem is that these fanatics are the ones who rule the country. When religion becomes an excuse for crimes, wars and whatnot there is something fundamentally wrong with the people. That goes not only for Iran but also for the israeli settlements on palestinian territory. There are many fundamentalists in Israel as well.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Derbysieger

[PELHAM 10]

That doesn't change that Iran has no underlying beef with Israel.

To the Muslims much of Israel is holy ground and that holy ground is in Jewish hands at the moment (e.g. the al-Aqsa Mosque). They don't like it, not one bit. Muslims see the whole region as belonging under their sphere of influence because it was in their possession for over 1000 years. They are right about that but we are where we are because America pushed to allow millions of Jews to flee Europe after WW2. Britain actually resisted that because they knew the history and could see the future trouble it would cause. Americans are good guys with a very simplistic world view.

Apart from the genuine religious beef, Islamic political leaders have traditionally used Israel as a slide for when things got tough and it's made a difficult situation worse. Ever notice that Hamas and Hezbollah tend to make mischief whenever there are problems either domestic or international for Syria or Iran? The Arab state controlled media's fill the airwaves and people forget their problems with their governments.

I'm sick and tired of hearing about it. It's one of those things that will drag on until there is a war to settle it or they agree to share.

-The Americans are stuck with supporting a problem they created.

-Israel remains aggressive because everyone around them wants to push them into the sea. They will not give up easily defensible borders because in the future America might turn it's back.

-Iran will keep destabilising and using the situation as a tool to get it's own way.

-The Palestinians are mostly living as refugees elsewhere, no one wants them on their turf.

-No one involved will give an inch.

Edited November 9, 2011 by PELHAM

[froggyluv 2130]

@PELHAM: Pretty spot on post there mate. Just wanted to note that while living in the Virgin Islands (has a sizable Palestinian population), my wife (Israeli Jewish) and I only trusted the Arab cab drivers to bring her home after her night shift at the bar down there -they called her "cousin" and showed her nothing but respect :)

Strangely enough I used to ask them their feeling's on the conflict and they were generally much more subdued and nuanced in their outlook then my experience talking with other Arab nationalities who tended to get far more vitriolic.

Edited November 9, 2011 by froggyluv

[Derbysieger 11]

@PELHAM: Pretty spot on post there mate. Just wanted to note that while living in the Virgin Islands (has a sizable Palestinian population), my wife (Israeli Jewish) and I only trusted the Arab cab drivers to bring her home after her night shift at the bar down there -they called her "cousin" and showed her nothing but respect :)

Strangely enough I used to ask them their feeling's on the conflict and they were generally much more subdued and nuanced in their outlook then my experience talking with other Arab nationalities who tended to get far more vitriloic.

An old friend of my parents lives in Isreal and she tells pretty much the same. The ordinary palestinian wants nothing but peace. It's the fundamentalists on both sides who fuel the conflict.

[Baff1 0]

Iran is far from being a democracy...

Not as far as Israel.

They are both dodgy/fledling democracies in a region more well known for it's dictatorships. It's something they both have in common. A source of natural alliance.

---------- Post added at 10:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 AM ----------

To the Muslims much of Israel is holy ground and that holy ground is in Jewish hands at the moment (e.g. the al-Aqsa Mosque). They don't like it, not one bit. Muslims see the whole region as belonging under their sphere of influence because it was in their possession for over 1000 years. They are right about that but we are where we are because America pushed to allow millions of Jews to flee Europe after WW2. Britain actually resisted that because they knew the history and could see the future trouble it would cause. Americans are good guys with a very simplistic world view.

Peterborough Cathedral is holy ground to all Christians.

But German Christians don't want to go to war for Peterborough Cathedral.

Iranian muslims do not make pilgrimages to Jerusalem. Never have. Never will.

It might host a site holy to their religion, but it doesn't host a site holy to them.

---------- Post added at 10:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 AM ----------

Having common enemies doesn't make you natural allies. That's just wrong. Maybe that's how the US handled things very often in the past but it doesn't mean this is a wise thing to do and applies to anyone. Especially if there are two states of different religion. No matter if they are surrounded by common enemies or not.

And do you think Israel is willing to forget about the ~40000 jews that were killed after the islamic revolution? I think not. Jews and christians don't have the same chances like shiites in that country.

The conflict between Isreal and the muslim world wouldn't stop if the United States suddenly weren't a factor anymore. No. Chances are that Isreal will be wiped off the map if western powers wouldn't care anymore or lose the ability to protect Isreal. A nuclear war wouldn't be a far-off szenario in that situation.

There live many shiites in the region around israel and jerusalem is not only a holy town to christians and jews but also to all muslims. And this makes Isreal an enemy of Iran and not a natural allie.

Where did you get that from? I don't care which religion people believe in. I just have a problem with fanatics of any kind. Religious or not doesn't matter. The problem is that these fanatics are the ones who rule the country. When religion becomes an excuse for crimes, wars and whatnot there is something fundamentally wrong with the people. That goes not only for Iran but also for the israeli settlements on palestinian territory. There are many fundamentalists in Israel as well.

Having a common enemy does make you a natural ally.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I think you are islamophobic because you keep coming out with anti Islamic claptrap like how 40,000 jews were killed after the Islamic revolution. And you keep trying to attribute Iran a foreign policy based on an intolerance of their state religion.

What possible reason would you have to invent a holocaust that never happened?

Irans jewish community is the largest of any middle eastern country outside of Israel.

Far from being ethnically cleansed by it, Jews were actively involved in the Islamic revolution of Iran. Participants.

---------- Post added at 11:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 AM ----------

-Ziggy-;2054326']please' date=' you do not speak for Americans.

say something like, "I believe...", or "I think..."

or you could just stop your hateful rhetoric and move on to another topic.[/quote']

Bullshit.

It was quite Ok for you to claim that Iranians hate Americans.

You personally came out with the same hateful rhetoric about Iranians as you object to when it is used to describe Americans.

You and them... the same.

You hate them, they hate you. Individually and as a national stereotype.

Your two societies have bad blood between you. Everybody knows this.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Baff1

[PELHAM 10]

Explain this then?

During Ayatollah Khomeini's campaign to overthrow Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, Israel, which had relatively warm relations with the Shah, became an issue. Khomeini declared Israel an "enemy of Islam" and 'The Little Satan' - the United States was called 'The Great Satan'.

Debate still runs as to whether Khomeini called out: “Israel must be wiped off the map†indicating military action and destruction, or: “this regime occupying Jerusalem should vanish from the pages of time†indicating a hope or wish.

On 7 February 2010, Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said the destruction of Israel was assured. According to the Teheran Times, Khamenei told Palestinian Islamic Jihad leader Ramadan Abdullah Shallah, "Israel is going downhill toward decline and fall and God willing its obliteration is certain". Khamenei went on to call Israel "a symbol of atrocity, viciousness, and ugliness," and said the West’s "support for the Zionist regime is ineffective."

Iran supplies political support and weapons to Hamas, an organization committed to the destruction of Israel by Jihad According to Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian National Authority, "Hamas is funded by Iran. It claims it is financed by donations, but the donations are nothing like what it receives from Iran.

Iran has also supplied another enemy of Israel, the terrorist organization Hezbollah with substantial amounts of financial, training, weapons, explosives, political, diplomatic, and organizational aid while persuading Hezbollah to take an action against Israel. Hezbollah's 1985 manifesto listed its four main goals as "Israel's final departure from Lebanon as a prelude to its final obliteration" According to reports released in February 2010, Hezbollah received $400 million dollars from Iran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_relations

[Baff1 0]

What's to explain?

I'm as well aware of the history as you are.

Perhaps the difference between us is I don't think God told Iran to fall out with Israel. I think their reasons are a little more earthly.

You know, like the Israeli's were working with the Shah and the U.S. to kill them or keep them repressed.

Israel supplied weapons to the Argies in the Falklands war. Weapons that killed our troops.

Does that mean Britain and Israel are mortal enemies?

I put it to you that while mutually, it does us no favours, that there is still no reason for us to be enemies just because of this. Direct bloodshed on the otherhand would build barriers between our nations that would be very difficult to overcome. Even then. All the terrorist attacks on Brits by Zionists has not been enough to divorce our two countries completely.

It's a still tough one though. Thorny.

We know that Iran seeks the overthrow of the state of Israel just as Isreal seeks the overthrow of the state of Iran.

Clearly Israel doesn't seek the destruction of Iran becuase of Hezbollah. We know this because they already sought the destruction of Iran prior to Hezbollahs existance. In fact theu sought the destruction of the islamic State of Iran prior to the Islamic State of Irans existance.

They did their best to never allow it to even be born.

Now that Hezbollah does exist and that Iran is accused of sponsoring them, that doesn't help, but it's not the root of their issues and since no direct confrontation has been entered into it's not yet something that they couldn't ever row back from.

I just don't think Iran would be intrested in them if they weren't America&co's proxy.

The whole it's their religion thing is a croc argument.

There has been little to no bloodshed between them (some spies executed).

So I'm buying into the strategics as a preference. That's what makes most sense to me.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Baff1

[PELHAM 10]

And on democracy.........

According to the Democracy Index 2010, the country in the Middle East with the highest Democracy Index score is Israel, with a score of 7.48, corresponding to the status of "flawed democracy"; the only one in the region. Iran is 9th from the bottom of the list with a score of 1.94 - Authoritarian Regime.

The five category indices, which all are listed in the report, are then averaged to find the democracy index for a given country. Finally, the democracy index, rounded to one decimal, decides the classification of the country, as quoted:

Full democracies—scores of 8 to 10.

Flawed democracies—scores of 6 to 7.9.

Hybrid regimes—scores of 4 to 5.9.

Authoritarian regimes—scores below 4.

As you can see Iran's score is poor even when compared with other Authoritarian Regimes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Edited November 10, 2011 by PELHAM

[Derbysieger 11]

Not as far as Israel.

They are both dodgy/fledling democracies in a region more well known for it's dictatorships. It's something they both have in common. A source of natural alliance.

Are you serious?

You are making things far to simple in a conflict where absolutely nothing is simple.

And Iran is very far from beeing a democracy.

Do you actually know that one of the reasons the United States are so much hated in the middle east is that they made the foundation of Israel possible?

Peterborough Cathedral is holy ground to all Christians.

But German Christians don't want to go to war for Peterborough Cathedral.

Iranian muslims do not make pilgrimages to Jerusalem. Never have. Never will.

It might host a site holy to their religion, but it doesn't host a site holy to them.

This just shows that you actually know very little about the history of the middle east. Many parts of Israel are holy ground to jews christians AND muslims.

Having a common enemy does make you a natural ally.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Oh come on. Are you really THAT naive?

I think you are islamophobic because you keep coming out with anti Islamic claptrap like how 40,000 jews were killed after the Islamic revolution. And you keep trying to attribute Iran a foreign policy based on an intolerance of their state religion.

What possible reason would you have to invent a holocaust that never happened?

Irans jewish community is the largest of any middle eastern country outside of Israel.

Far from being ethnically cleansed by it, Jews were actively involved in the Islamic revolution of Iran. Participants.

Can you please stop making assumptions about people you know nothing about? I live in a country with many muslims. My turkish neighburs are muslims and I consider them to be my friends. We invite each other to parties and we watch football games together whenever possible. Especially when Turkey plays Germany. Just stop with your stupid hate talk.

And calling the Islam an intolerant religion is just ignorant. First and foremost it's the people that are intolerant not the religion. And if they don't have a religion they can base their intolerance on they use or invent something else.

Besides I'm not making up facts. There were ~40000 Jews killed after the Islamic Revolution reducing the jewish population in Iran to approximately 25000. And don't tell me they are living a happy life. Somehow I doubt that.

PELHAMs post is spot on. Read it again and if you are really interested in the subject do a little more research than reading a few articles on the internet.

And please: Stop the hate talk. I mean it.

[Baff1 0]

@Pelham

I'm not really intrested in how the CIA catagorises it's allies and enemies in terms of political wholesomeness. Sorry.

What were you expecting them to say?

We love Iran, We hate israel.

Hardly.

---------- Post added at 11:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 AM ----------

Are you serious?

You are making things far to simple in a conflict where absolutely nothing is simple.

And Iran is very far from beeing a democracy.

Do you actually know that one of the reasons the United States are so much hated in the middle east is that they made the foundation of Israel possible?

This just shows that you actually know very little about the history of the middle east. Many parts of Israel are holy ground to jews christians AND muslims.

Oh come on. Are you really THAT naive?

Can you please stop making assumptions about people you know nothing about? I live in a country with many muslims. My turkish neighburs are muslims and I consider them to be my friends. We invite each other to parties and we watch football games together whenever possible. Especially when Turkey plays Germany. Just stop with your stupid hate talk.

And calling the Islam an intolerant religion is just ignorant. First and foremost it's the people that are intolerant not the religion. And if they don't have a religion they can base their intolerance on they use or invent something else.

Besides I'm not making up facts. There were ~40000 Jews killed after the Islamic Revolution reducing the jewish population in Iran to approximately 25000. And don't tell me they are living a happy life. Somehow I doubt that.

PELHAMs post is spot on. Read it again and if you are really interested in the subject do a little more research than reading a few articles on the internet.

And please: Stop the hate talk. I mean it.

Many parts of Israel are holy ground for Christians muslims and jews.

how does that change that Iranians are not intrested in going to war for the right to worship in Isreal? Any more than German Christians are?

If you are a Christian in Germany, you do not wish to go to war in Israel becuase the Jews there persecute the Christians or even because jesus ws born there.

You wish to go to your local German church and worship in peace.

To imagine that it is any different in Iran is laughable.

There were no 40,000 jews killed in Iran after the Islamic revolution. If you don't like hate speech, then don't do it.

If you do contiunue to do it, then I will of course continue to make assumptions about you based on your actions

Edited November 10, 2011 by Baff1

[PELHAM 10]

@Pelham

I'm not really intrested in how the CIA catagorises it's allies and enemies in terms of political wholesomeness. Sorry.

That is not from the CIA - it's from the Economist and is an internationally accepted standard of measuring democracy. It would help if you actually read things before responding. Iran by any measure is not a democracy, it's an authoritarian regime and one of the worst.

Edited November 10, 2011 by PELHAM

[Derbysieger 11]

FPDR

Why are you completely neglecting history whenever it suits you?

Before the Iranian Revolution there lived approximately 65000 Jews in Iran - Today about 25000. I'm sure some of them were able to flee but many of them weren't.

I've read books from journalists who met Khomenei and who were in Iran at the time of the Islamic revolution or lived there before. They are a very interesting read.

€: saying 40000 were killed was wrong but read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habib_Elghanian

I admit I should have informed myself better because it is some time (~5years) since I did an assignment in school about the Iranian revolution. I confused some words and stand corrected. But that doesn't change the overall situation.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Derbysieger

[Baff1 0]

That is not from the CIA - it's from the Economist and is an internationally accepted standard of measuring democracy. It would help if you actually read things before responding. Iran by any measure is not a democracy, it's an authoritarian regime and one of the worst.

It's a standard of measuring democracy designed and tabulated by the CIA for the sole purpose of enhancing US foreign policy aims.

Written for the Economist by BI (Business International or bla blah).

Which is a dept/office of the CIA.

(Look up the table you provided in wiki, follow the blue highlighted links to the source, and then the next blue link to their source... whoops it's the CIA!).

You didn't honestly think an article written like that wasn't from the US state department did you?

Hahaha.

Come on. Who else craps on about democracy, hates Iran and loves Israel?

That sort of propaganda is not so tough to spot.

Both America and the UK have active propaganada campaigns to undemine the government of Iran. Psyops.

We even have an Iranian BBC channel that broadcasts in Iran but not here.

Presumably telling them how shit their government is and how cool it is to start rebellions.

.

---------- Post added at 05:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:17 PM ----------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habib_Elghanian

I admit I should have informed myself better because it is some time (~5years) since I did an assignment in school about the Iranian revolution. I confused some words and stand corrected. But that doesn't change the overall situation.

Yes mate, him and also I think 17 Israeli (jewish Iranian) spies have been killed in Iran since 1979.

It really is a very different overall situation than you were describing. Far from being a Jewish Holocaust in Iran on par with Hitlers, Jews in Iran live well and comfortably.

Those that don't can simply leave. Isreal has an open invite to all of them and is very close.

(many have taken this up of course, perhaps 1/2 or 2/3), but equally many have not felt the need.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Baff1

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

Bullshit.

It was quite Ok for you to claim that Iranians hate Americans.

You personally came out with the same hateful rhetoric about Iranians as you object to when it is used to describe Americans.

You and them... the same.

You hate them, they hate you. Individually and as a national stereotype.

Your two societies have bad blood between you. Everybody knows this.

wait! what? I never said any such thing!!!

IF YOU MEANT THIS?

-Ziggy-;2054213']I assume you meant Iran hates America' date=' still silly. [/quote']

your statement, America hates Iran, or Iran hates America as I thought you intended to say ...IS SILLY.

If you are you not capable of understanding that, no wonder you have these extreme beliefs.

Go back and read your post I was referring to, it's confusing.

You are the only one spouting hateful rhetoric.

I hate no one, You are the bigot here, not me.

DO NOT put words into my mouth, and DO NOT project your BELIEFS onto the entire US population.

Continue as stating, "I believe America blankity blank...", and I have no beef with your statements.

Edited November 10, 2011 by [DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

[Baff1 0]

I stand corrected you did indeed not say that.

Sorry about that.

As for the rest of America...

You may not wish to think of your country that way but I don't have any particular vested intrest in portraying it one way or another.

America hates Iran. Americans hate a lot of people.

I'm willing to concede that the odd American might not but the generalisation still holds water.

Right now today you will find the internet full of posts written by Americans calling for the bombing of Iran.

They don't want to send them chocolates or flowers, they don't want to invite them to their birthday parties. They want to kill them.

They have made little league of evil tables (posted by Pelham above) to place Iran squarely at the top of.

Don't be thinking there is a great wash of benevolance coming out of the US aimed at Iran. Nothing could be further from the truth. Your people keep threatening to nuke them. That's not how people who like eachother behave. They don't all conspire together to bomb their friends.

They don't sanction those that they like either. Or call their societies tryannies or describe their menfolk as wifebeaters...

They don't station ships full of planes and bombs in strike range...

They hate each other. Get used to it.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Baff1

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

I stand corrected you did indeed not say that.

Sorry about that.

I appreciate your apology, and respectfully disagree with your opinions. :p

[PELHAM 10]

@Baff1

Can you understand what you read? Your saying that the Economist Group is run by the CIA and the US State Department just because 1 of the founders of a company they acquired 25 years ago (BI) is rumoured to have provided jobs abroad as cover for 4 CIA operatives 50+ years ago?

Tenuous link or what? You clearly are an idiot.

PS Holding elections does not make a democracy if those elections are not free or fair, if the candidates require prior approval by a religious council or if the ballot boxes are stuffed. The election of Ahmadinejad in 2009 was deeply flawed:

-In two Conservative provinces, Mazandaran and Yazd, a turnout of more than 100% was recorded. Yes more than 100% of people voted!?

-There are no booths in the polling stations so voting is done in public, not in private.

-Many voters are illiterate and officials help them fill in their ballot papers.

-Candidates are not allowed to be present at polling stations during voting or counting.

-No independent monitoring at all in Iran.

-At a provincial level, there was no correlation between the increased turnout, and the swing to Ahmadinejad. This challenges the notion that his victory was due to the massive participation of a previously silent Conservative majority.

-In a third of all provinces, the official results would require that Ahmadinejad took not only all former conservative voters, and all former centrist voters, and all new voters, but also took up to 44% of former Reformist voters, despite a decade of conflict between these two groups.

-In 2005, as in 2001 and 1997, conservative candidates, and Ahmadinejad in particular, were markedly unpopular in rural areas. The claim that Ahmadinejad swept the board in more rural provinces in 2009 flies in the face of these trends.

When the government then declares the election a "divine assessment" puts militia on the streets (Baslj) to shoot protesters and declares demonstrators are "people who wage war against God" it starts to look even more fishy.

There is lots of online video showing the Basij firing into crowds and possibly one of the most shocking videos I have ever seen is the killing of Neda Agha-Soltan by a Baslj gunman. On November 16, 2009, supporters of the Iranian regime desecrated her grave and removed her gravestone. Later, on December 31, 2009, supporters of the Iranian Government defaced the portrait on her grave by shooting at it multiple times. The family were ordered to leave their home and neighbours have received suspicious calls warning them not to discuss her death with anyone and not to make any protest.

We have seen this sort of democracy before - Sadam Hussein and Robert Mugabe - it's laughable.

Edited November 10, 2011 by PELHAM

[ProfTournesol 956]

Indeed, discussing of how democratic Iran is appears really as a waste of time.

[wld427 1705]

As for the rest of America...

Please do not make the mistake of attempting to represent Americans.You simply have no idea about us and choose to draw your own unfounded conclusions.... as i thouroughly disagree with every single point you have attempted to make in this thread.

your statements simply amount to slander

Edited November 10, 2011 by wld427

[ProfTournesol 956]

Breaking news : "a massive explosion has ripped through a military barracks in the western part of the Iranian capital, Tehran, with no immediate reports of casualties".

EDIT : seems that there are casulaties. It was a weapons depot.

EDIT2 : the base is belonging to the Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC).

EDIT3 : no causalties finally, and only an accident : "The incident took place around 1 p.m. local time (0730 GMT) when a munitions depot caught fire by accident at an IRGC military base in Bidgeneh village -- located on the outskirts of Shahriar city and about 35 kilometers (21 miles) west of Tehran -- Iranian lawmaker for Shahriar, Hossein Garousi, told ICANA news agency.

The shock wave released by the explosion shattered windowpanes and inflicted damage on a number of buildings in the area.

There are no clear casualty figures in the incident. "

Edited November 12, 2011 by ProfTournesol

[Baff1 0]

@Baff1

Can you understand what you read? Your saying that the Economist Group is run by the CIA .

Incorrect.

I and Wikipedia are both saying that the table you referred to was written and compiled by the CIA and has been published in the Economist.

You suggested that it is a table highly respected for it's authority around the world and I am explaining to you that it is commonly held to be a piece of propaganda written by the US government for the purpose of promoting it's own foreign policy agenda and far from being written by a highly respected group of academics it was written by a front company of the CIA known as BI. Business International.

I'm flabberghasted that your bullshit detectors didn't instantly spot all that oh so convenient guff about democracy , Iran bad Israel good and that you had not bothered to check the origin of it for yourself.

Very very slack.

P.S. please do us both the favour of actually looking this up for yourself before disputing it any further.

I honestly feel that I have nothing to gain from lying to you.

---------- Post added at 02:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 PM ----------

Please do not make the mistake of attempting to represent Americans.You simply have no idea about us and choose to draw your own unfounded conclusions.... as i thouroughly disagree with every single point you have attempted to make in this thread.

your statements simply amount to slander

The whole world has an excellent idea about you.

We all talk with you every day.

That your country holds ill will towards Iran is no big secret.

Why don't you look though this thread and any other on the internet you can find and count the number of american written posts you can find praising and expressing love for Iran .

If you can find any at all, they will be utterly dwarfed in number by American written posts describing Iran in negative context or calling for the violence and mass murder upon them.

I don't have to speak on behalf of Americans. This is the internet, millions of Americans have all spoken for themselves and we've all read it for ourselves and formed our opinions of them accordingly.

Work it out. America hates Iran. Americans hate Iranians.

This is a thread about war with Iran, not the good will we are all wishing them.

Edited November 12, 2011 by Baff1

[PELHAM 10]

OMG Troll

The Democracy Index is an index compiled by the Economist Intelligence Unit that claims to measure the state of democracy in 167 countries, of which 166 are sovereign states and 165 are UN member states. The Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index is based on 60 indicators grouped in five different categories: electoral process and pluralism, civil liberties, functioning of government, political participation and political culture. The Index was first produced in 2006, with updates produced in 2008 and 2010.

>The Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU) is part of the Economist Group.

It is a research and advisory company providing country, industry and management analysis worldwide and incorporates the former Business International Corporation, a U.S. company acquired by the parent organization in 1986.

>The Economist Group is an associate and not a subsidiary of Pearson PLC. The Financial Times Limited, which is a Pearson subsidiary, owns 50% of the share capital of The Economist Group but does not have a controlling interest. The bulk of the remaining shares are held by individual shareholders including the Cadbury, Rothschild, Schroder and other family interests as well as a number of staff and former staff shareholders. The Economist Group operates as a separate and independent business.

>Business International Corporation (BI) was a publishing and advisory firm dedicated to assisting American companies in operating abroad. In 1986, Business International was acquired by The Economist Group in London, and eventually merged with The Economist Intelligence Unit. BI has been known to be used as a CIA front company.

-The company has been identified as cover organization for the Central Intelligence Agency, e.g. see Lobster Magazine, issue 14 in 1987. According to a lengthy article in the New York Times in 1977, the co-founder of the company told the newspaper that "Eldridge Haynes [the other founder] had provided cover for four CIA employees in various countries between 1955 and 1960"

^^ So thats it? x4 jobs 50+ years ago - just as I said.

Edited November 13, 2011 by PELHAM

[ryfle 10]

I'm extremely disappointed with the attitudes of my countrymen and our politicians toward Iran... nothing short of warmongering. I was watching the GOP debate on CBS last night, and was rather appalled at the things they were saying... all regurgitating nonsense about how they would "sanction to death" Iran and attack them if they protested -- possibly with nukes. And as usual, there was only one true voice of reason in the bunch: Ron Paul.

I hate how some Americans (especially politicians) think we're supposed to be the "world's police" who makes up the law as we go. It's really an entire asinine world view for many people. In their eyes, terrorists attack us not because we've been eff'ing with their country and affairs (often totally unjustly) for decades, but because they "hate our freedom and wealth". And America isn't warmongering, we're "pushing freedom with military might"... And we make up the rules about who's allowed to have nuclear power... :rolleyes:

Just imagine if we were a relatively poor country, and another country, say, China, had enacted aggressive foreign policy against us for decades and was constantly interfering with our lives... and Mexico was our mortal enemy, who China supported financially and militarily, who often crossed the borders and killed us. What would you do? Would you be a fan of China? Or would you hate their guts, and maybe even try to kill them? That is essentially the situation for many in the Arab world. In no way does that justify terrorism and murder, like 9/11, but let's be reasonable. We've made the Arab world hate us because we keep screwing with them to preserve our financial interests. And we're making the problem worse and worse. Threatening war with Iran (and worse yet, actually having one) is the dumbest thing possible.

I am not afraid of Iran, nor do I consider it a serious threat. The thought of a country like Iran trying to take on the military might of the US is, well... amusing at best. How exactly could Iran inflict serious harm on us? They couldn't invade us... they'd never make it out of their home ports before being blown up. They can't bomb us, as we have global air superiority and old Migs against F-22 Raptors is a joke. And the idea of going head to head with the US in a conventional war on foreign soil would be suicide... They couldn't use nuclear missiles, as we'd shoot them out of the sky and wipe them off the map... so that leaves them two possibilities for attacking the US: 1) a cowardly attack like 9/11 or 2) a cowardly attack with a crappy quality nuclear weapon or "dirty bomb". But even that would be virtually impossible for them, as we're not off our guard like we were on 9/11. Just getting into the country is extremely difficult, and airport security is... overzealous, to say the least. And the thought of foreign agents trying to sneak a nuke into the US is a subject better left to cheesy spy novels and Hollywood. Sorry... we just don't need to be afraid of Iran on any serious level, and going to war with them is an absurd idea. This sounds too much like the war propaganda that got us into Iraq -- only to discover there were no actual WMDs...

Then there's the issue of legality. Will this, like the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya be a totally undeclared war -- totally outside the bounds of the Constitution? I'm sure it will be... completely illegal by our own laws. When the Constitution was thrown out and the executive branch given the autonomy to invade other countries and execute people without trial I'm unsure... What's next, martial law and suspension of due process? An 8pm nation-wide curfew and mandatory "patriotism training"? lol... It sounds funny, but why not if the highest law of our land doesn't apply anymore? :j: