War with Iran.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Why would they care about Israel?

They do care. They (and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad first) have claimed several times that Israel should be destroyed.

[froggyluv 2136]

How can the U.S honestly act like it wants fairness over there and then go about letting Israel remain ambiguous on their nuclear arsenal. If I was an Arab or Persian I'd be like f*ck dat. Israel should be held to the same standard as everyone else over there or we lose all credibility that hasn't been lost already.

[Baff1 0]

@Prof

Israel and Iran are always claiming that the other should be destroyed.

My question is simply "why?"

I suggest to you it is because Israel is an ally of their enemies.

A strategic threat to Iran, not because of any shared rivalries or commonly fought over resources, or any history of warring amongst them.

Not because the jewish migration has destabilised the population of Iran in any way.

Not because of any border dispute or land grabs.

Not because of any bood relation with Israels victims.

What does that leave?

I think it leaves their proxy status with Irans greatest enemy first and foremost.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Baff1

[ProfTournesol 956]

@Prof

Israel and Iran are always claiming that the other should be destroyed.

My question is simply "why?"

I suggest to you it is because Israel is an ally of their enemies.

Anti-Zionism ?

[Baff1 0]

What reason do they have to be anti-zionist?

How does Zionism affect them in any way?

They hold no claim to Jerusalem. They aren't arabs. They have no fillial bond with those others who do.

They have a jewish population of their own that is well treated.

Zion isn't being built inside Iran or so close to it as to cause a population displacement into Iran.

What possible reasons do they have to care about Zionism?

When did Iran start being anti-zionist?

Was it after the fall of the Shah or in 1948?

My bet is that they were natural allies until the fall of the Shah. Inseperable.

Until Iran fell out with America&co that is.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Baff1

[ProfTournesol 956]

What reason do they have to be anti-zionist?

How does zionism affect them in any way?

Well, this may be an interesting read on this complex subject.

[Derbysieger 11]

@Baff1:

Have you actually ever read anything about the recent history of the middle east? Especially about the foundation of Israel after WW2 and the islamic revolution in 1979?

Israel wouldn't excist without the United States so what's your point?

[Baff1 0]

@ Prof

Yeah, that says Israel and Iran were tight buddies until Iran fell out with America.

That's what I expected to be honest.

Take America&co out of the picture and they are natural allies.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Baff1

[Derbysieger 11]

Can't tell if really that stupid or just trolling

[Baff1 0]

@Baff1:

Have you actually ever read anything about the recent history of the middle east? Especially about the foundation of Israel after WW2 and the islamic revolution in 1979?

Isreal wouldn't excist without the United States so what's your point?

Yes. I have.

My point is that the tail is not wagging the dog.

Israel knows it's alliance with the US is of greater importance to it than it's alliance with Iran was.

Which is why it is proxied to America vs Iran.

Which is why Iran is no longer allied to Israel.

It's not because of anything Israel has done to Iran, it's because Israel is an ally of their greatest enemy.

How does this affect the future? I don't expect Israel to have much intrest in attacking Iran unless America offers them a reward to do so.

An attack by Israel would be war by proxy in my opinion.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Baff1

[Derbysieger 11]

I'm sorry but that's just absolute BS, sorry.

The Shah of persia was big friends with the US and its allies, not so the people who suffered under the regime. So it was easy for religious extremists to make the people follow them.

It's always the same. People who suffer from great unjustice are always prone to run towards those who promise a better life, no matter what their intentions are

Edited November 9, 2011 by Derbysieger

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

Israel is America's Cold War proxy state and America hates Iran and America's Arab allies on the Persian gulf have reason to fear Iran.

I assume you meant Iran hates America, still silly.

[Baff1 0]

-Ziggy-;2054213']I assume you meant Iran hates America' date=' still silly. [/quote']

They hate each other.

---------- Post added at 07:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 PM ----------

I'm sorry but that's just absolute BS, sorry.

The Shah of persia was big friends with the US and its allies,

And the ruler that replaced him was not.

That's when Iran and Israel became enemies.

Not when Zionism started but when America's alliance with Iran ended and their enmity began.

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

They hate each other.

you really should be a stand up comic. I am laughing too much to take anything you say seriously.

[Baff1 0]

They hate them.

I'll bet that if you took a poll of Americans a significant number of them have called for bombing Iranians today.

And I'll bet a good many Americans have been calling for the same thing now most days for the last 40 years.

They hate them.

They hate their government.

They hate their religion.

They hate what the Iranian people did to their embassy.

They hate their culture and worst of all they hate people who dare to stand up to them.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Baff1

[Derbysieger 11]

You're missing the point. Ayatollah Khomenei was a religious fanatic. For him, the USA weren't just the bad guys. No they were an incarnation of satan. And so were all their allies in the middle east. Now don't try to put logic into that.

Also Israel is a very young state and many muslims had to leave their homes to make place for people of another religion.

The whole history of the middle east is a history of war between religions. I can assure you the conflict between jews, christians and muslims goes way back to a time when America wasn't even discovered by the europeans

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

you would lose that bet. No majority hate anything, but maybe the performance of our own congress...

[froggyluv 2136]

Baff1's point of anti-western interference being a major factor in their enmity toward Israel is a valid one. It's not the sole reason but a major contributor none the less.

Fact is, the West has been messing with the internal machinations of Iran for a long time - petroleum being the major factor.

Read up on the 1953 coup orchestrated by both the US and Great Britain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

[Derbysieger 11]

Of course that's right. The point is that Israel isn't a state like france, spain or germany which all have a very long history. Jews lived all across europe. They were german, french, spanish, russian or british but almost always discriminated by the christian majority or other ideolic bs. It's no wonder there grew a wish for an own state a place to live in peace. After WW2 this wish was stronger than ever before and what happened was the foundation of Israel, a jewish state placed in a region that was almost exclusively inhabited by muslim people for a very long time. Now don't tell my that isn't a source of conflict.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Of course that's right. The point is that Israel isn't a state like france, spain or germany which all have a very long history. Jews lived all across europe. They were german, french, spanish, russian or british but almost always discriminated by the christian majority or other ideolic bs. It's no wonder there grew a wish for an own state a place to live in peace. After WW2 this wish was stronger than ever before and what happened was the foundation of Israel, a jewish state placed in a region that was almost exclusively inhabited by muslim people for a very long time. Now don't tell my that isn't a source of conflict.

Well yes, it's obviously a source of conflict, but the "who was there before" contest is very complex. For example Christians were there before Mahomet was even born.

[froggyluv 2136]

It certainly is a big part of the source and the fact that again it was the US and GB that helped form the Jewish State that most assuredly gives the Muslim world a collective WTF.

I would offer that any non-muslim party that established a State in that sea of Arabs(and Persians) would be most unwelcome -the fact that they are also allowed to almost exclusively carry the big sticks (nukes) while others are prohibited only makes matters worse.

[Derbysieger 11]

Well yes, it's obviously a source of conflict, but the "who was there before" contest is very complex. For example Christians were there before Mahomet was even born.

And exactly this has always led to conflict. Be it the crusaders or in recent history the israeli.

What Baff1 was basically saying is if it weren't for the americans Israel would be big chums with Iran. That's not only untrue but also completely neglecting israeli history because without the United States Israel wouldn't even excist.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Derbysieger

[Baff1 0]

It wouldn't have existed without Germany either.

But it does exist. History did occour.

Israel previously to being the proxy of America was the proxy of Britain and France. At this point America and Russia ganged up on them all.

Later on Israel went on to become the antagonist of Britain in the Falklands War.

Alliances come and go.

That doesn't change that Iran has no underlying beef with Israel. That to my mind, their rivalry is in the mainpart due to Israel being the proxy of America&co and not a matter of their fundamental irreconcilable differences.

Here is more of the history.

Israel were big chums with Iran. Not "could be", were.

Iran and Israel are natural allies. I fully expect that in the fullness of time they shall become so again. But not until America&co have either settled their differences with Iran, or walked away from Israel.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Baff1

[Derbysieger 11]

Yes history did occur. And it is still very recent history, not something that has happened hundreds of years ago like the Thirty Year's War in europe.

The United States, France and Great Britain among others backed the foundation of Israel. Something the muslim leaders never forgot. Conflicts in this region have always been not only political but also religious conflicts. You can't just say religion isn't a factor anymore. It is. And it is a very big factor. Even if it is in many cases only a stupid excuse for an action.

You have to keep in mind that Iran is a religious state. Technically the Qur'an or to be more precise the sharia is law in that country.

So the 'beef' with Israel is that it is not a muslim country (if you want to keep things simple). Also notice that many muslims in that region (around Israel) are shiites which creates some kind of a bond to Iran.

€:

Here is more of the history.

Israel were big chums with Iran. Not "could be", were.

Iran and Israel are natural allies. I fully expect that in the fullness of time they shall become so again. But not until America&co have either settled their differences with Iran, or walked away from Israel.

And that is like saying the United States were allies with Iran. After the islamic revolution they weren't anymore. Same for Israel. If the current regime gets overthrown by the iranian people relations may get better but there are too many skeletons in the closet for those two nations to be big chums. Same for any other arabic or muslim country in that region.

Just imagine the muslims living in the United States would ask for a muslim state on american soil. What do you imagine would the reaction of the US government be?

Remember:

Since the discovery of the huge oil reserves in the middle east this region has become a matter of interest for all the big players in the world. Great Britain, the United States and France all tried to make their influence count. They made politics in that region without asking the people that lived there for permission. The Shah of Persia didn't have the backing of the iranian people. The leaders kept the money and the ordinary people suffered which in the end led to the iranian or islamic revolution. The United States and Israel became the main enemies of Iran

And this is only one aspect of a very complicated conflict.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Derbysieger

[Baff1 0]

When the Iranians regime got overthrown, America and Iran had reason to fall out with eachother.

Americans had backed the losing regime at the cost of many Iranian lives and much hardship, and the American Embassy was overran by the Iranian people to the permanent and lasting fury of the American people. (Not to mention it's oil fields stolen).

Iran and Israel however had none of these issues between them. The only reason Israel fell out with Iran at this point was to stay in with America.

Iran is a muslim state.

Israel is a jewish state.

Both are religious states.

Both are democracies, both are surrounded by Arab countries who do not like them.

None of the many beefs they have with their many neighbours are with each other. Some of the neghbours surrounding them that they do have beefs with are the same neighbours surrounding the other that they also have beefs with too.

They have common enemies.

This all makes for a natural alliance.

Or would do if Israel wasn't allied with Irans primary enemy in preference.

Americans hate muslims. It's a Christian fundamentalist country. They will never allow muslims to live in America under muslim laws.

It will take as long for them to do that as it did for them to allow black men on the white mans bus.

Iranians do not hate jews, they do allow jews to live there under jewish laws and always have.

In my country christian, muslim and jew all live together under their own religious laws and one national law that allows for this.

Not being a muslim is not a "beef". You don't see Iran having a "beef" with China, Burma, Korea, Uganda, New Zealand or any one of a couple of hundred other countries that are not muslims.

They are an enlightened country with a history of empire. Quite used to dealing with other cultures.

It sounds more likely to me, that far form them having a beef with non muslims, you likely have a beef with muslims.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Baff1