Muzzle Velocity

[Panzer Jager 10]

One thing that bothers me in this realism simulator is that weapons with very short barrels, such as the G36C and XM8 Compact, produce the same velocity as an M16A4.

The game features differening velocities based on what magazine is loaded, as opposed to a more realistic solution of basing it off of what weapon is being fired and what ammo it is firing. This is represented properly in ACE, but I think the system should be represented in ArmA 2 or Operation Arrowhead as well.

Example:

30-Round Stanag, 5.56x45 M855 Ball

M16A4 Velocity = 945ms

M4A1 Velocity = 885ms

30-Round G36, 5.56x45 M855 Ball

G36K + XM8 Velocity = 850ms

G36C and XM8 Compact Velocity = 770ms

20-Round Stanag, 5.56x45 Mk262 OTM

Mk12 SPR Velocity = 850ms

That's another point I want to bring up - it is unsafe to fire the Mk12 SPR with standard M855 Ball or any other ammo that is not Mk.262 OTM. However, in ArmA 2, it fires M855, which not only makes it unrealistic but also much less lethal and less accurate than it should be.

Anyhow, what with Operation Arrowhead including many more short-barrel weapons (SCAR CQC) I think it'd be a good step in the right direction to simulate varying muzzle velocities with changes in barrel length, just like in real life.

Here are some numbers on 5.56x45 just for reference. Obviously barrel length also affects velocities of other cartridges.

M855

M16A4 + XM8 Sharpshooter + XM8 LMG = 945ms

M4A1 = 885ms

G36 + MG36 = 930ms

G36K + XM8 = 850ms

G36C + XM8 Compact = 770ms

Mk.16 Standard = 870ms

Mk.16 CQC = 800ms

M249 SAW = 970ms

Mk262

Mk12 SPR + Mk.16 Long = 850ms

XM8 Sharpshooter = ~875ms

Edited June 15, 2010 by Panzer Jager

[Evil_Echo 11]

That is already done by one hugely popular mod.

[Q1184 0]

For what it's worth, here is the corresponding ticket at CIT.

[celery 7]

That is already done by one hugely popular mod.

ACE is not an answer to every problem overlooked by BIS. In many cases it's a problem in itself due to its certain all-or-nothing features and fanbase.

[Big Dawg KS 5]

ACE is not an answer to every problem overlooked by BIS. In many cases it's a problem in itself due to its certain all-or-nothing features and fanbase.

This. ACE is not the be-all end-all mod everyone seems to think it is. The things it improves/fixes are outweighed by the things that it "fixed" that weren't broken or needed in the first place, at least IMO. For this, I will never use it.

[Beagle 674]

This. ACE is not the be-all end-all mod everyone seems to think it is. The things it improves/fixes are outweighed by the things that it "fixed" that weren't broken or needed in the first place, at least IMO. For this, I will never use it.

I can only second this. In my opinion ACE breaks the game even more and makes it twice as complicated as it should be.

[Evil_Echo 11]

For what it's worth - I was just pointing out that at least one group had solved this issue, not insisting that anyone use that mod.

So how about discussing the technique used by them instead of going off-topic with tirades about how much you either love or hate ACE?

[CarlGustaffa 3]

Well I love what ACE does to MP in terms of providing a more realistic gaming platform than vanilla. But as it has serious issues with singleplayer (and frankly, it doesn't really matter, to me anyways), I do anything SP related without ACE.

So certain fixes should not have to be relying on ACE or any other heavy realism mod. Hence I support OPs idea in full.

Another thing that has problem to be a problem, are the drum ammo for G36s and XM8s automatic rifle variants. Although in real life they would be "compatible" with any variants, they are just not used due to the problems with these magazines. These problems don't exist in the game. So why would someone choose not to use them if they were available? We can't create mission player squads based on these weapons where some are ammo bearers for the automatic weapon, because we know it will be vastly exploited by the "action players". Mixing G36s with SAW's in a squad tend to "break the feeling" as well.

So I think drum mags should be made incompatible with weapons not intended to use them, even if they are technically suited for it. Maybe then we can see some missions not being M4/M16 based. "Select weapon family" as a difficulty option sounds like fun, but nobody does it because it will be exploited. At least I think like that.

[Panzer Jager 10]

That is already done by one hugely popular mod.

Actually I know that, I even said it in my first post.

Here:

This is represented properly in ACE, but I think the system should be represented in ArmA 2 or Operation Arrowhead as well.

Another thing that has problem to be a problem, are the drum ammo for G36s and XM8s automatic rifle variants. Although in real life they would be "compatible" with any variants, they are just not used due to the problems with these magazines. Although in real life they would be "compatible" with any variants, they are just not used due to the problems with these magazines.

Along with that, it is debatable as to whether special forces use subsonic 5.56x45 as well, since subsonic ammo cannot fragment it would create really small wounds and deliver very little energy - even 9mm subsonic would be superior. So I don't know why the game has two different types of magazines for subsonic and ball 5.56, as subsonic 5.56 is pratically pointless. Edited June 15, 2010 by Panzer Jager

[nkenny 775]

@OP

Sure. Why would anyone carry short barreled weapons though?

-k

[Wolfstriked 11]

Short barreled have less velocity so less recoil?

[Panzer Jager 10]

Sure. Why would anyone carry short barreled weapons though?

Short barreled have less velocity so less recoil?

Typically short barreled weapons also have lower weight, so same overall recoil, but short barrel weapons are more comfortable in close-quarters. If you mean what would be their advantages in-game, well, none. Weapons in the game are not designed to be fair, they are designed to be realistic. I could ask you why anyone would carry an M24 or M40A3 over an M107? The M107 is more accurate, fires faster, hits harder, doesn't drop as much, and has more cartridges in the magazine.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Panzer Jager

[Jack 0]

@OP

Sure. Why would anyone carry short barreled weapons though?

-k

A 14.5" barrel is quite short, and that's on the main service rifle of the US Army - the M4.

[Wolfstriked 11]

Are you sure about same recoil?Its just a tube extending out a few inches more.From what I gather,I agree with you that shorter rifles main purpose is to allow easy carrying of weapon in cargo and also CQB type engagements.

[Beagle 674]

It is well know among all kinds of shooters that weapons with shorter barrels and less weight have not a stronger recoil in pure Joules, but one thats feels much harder due to less inertia of the weapon with a more pronounced muzzle climb, making auto fire harder to control.

It's the weapons weight that makes you feel the recoil differently.

Thats the reason why the recoil of a 12kg MG3 feels much "softer" than that of a 4,5kg G3 "battle rifle" in same 7.62x51 NATO caliber.

The drop in muzzle velocity is pratically neglectable in usual combat ranges which are 15-150m.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Beagle

[nkenny 775]

It is well know among all kinds of shooters that weapons with shorter barrels and less weight have not a stronger recoil in pure Joules, but one thats feels much harder due to less inertia of the weapon with a more pronounced muzzle climb, making auto fire harder to control.

Its the weapons weight that makes you feel the recoil diffently.

Thats the reason why the recoils of a 12kg MG3 feels much "softer" than that of a 4,5kg G3 "battle rifle" in same 7.62x51 NATO caliber.

The drop in muzzle velocity is praticallly neglectable in usual combat ranges which are 15-150m.

Bingo. I asked a hard question to provoke discussion.

Arma2 offers no real penalties for carrying larger or heavier weapons... Until these are in place -- why bother needlessly penalize shorter weapons?

-k

[Panzer Jager 10]

The drop in muzzle velocity is pratically neglectable in usual combat ranges which are 15-150m.

Not true, especially for 5.56x45 M855.

5.56x45 M855 only fragments reliably at hit velocities above 790ms, and short barreled weapons such as the G36C don't even produce that much speed at the muzzle - thus creating a tiny wound channel. Reduced muzzle velocity for other calibres such as 7.62x51 M80 may not have a seriously noticable effect, but it still reduces effective range.

Here is some real data with pics:

http://www.cbjtech.com/dokument/Reduced%20effectiveness%20of%20the%205.56%20NATO%20due%20to%20shorter%20barrels.pdf

Basically, if you're using something like a Mk.16 CQC with M855, your effective range is about 15m (and even then the amount of fragmentation is extremely low), as opposed to an M16A4's effective range of about 150m. Those numbers are the two extremes of the "usual combat range" - I wouldn't consider a 10x range difference neglectable.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Panzer Jager

[Beagle 674]

@ Panzer Jäger

You're comparing short with ultrashort 21cm barrels here, while I was thinking of the usual M16 vs. M4 bzw. G36 vs. G36K situation.

The extremly short barrels are exactly that...extreme...I never got a hand on that type in my whole service time, never even saw one.

[Panzer Jager 10]

The extremly short barrels are exactly that...extreme...I never got a hand on that type in my whole service time, never even saw one.

Right, but the game does feature extremely short barrel weapons - I'm suggesting that muzzle velocities be implemented for their sake ;) even if you may not notice the difference between M4A1 and M16A4, you will notice a difference between G36C and M16A4, and it should be that way in the game IMO.

[CarlGustaffa 3]

Although "hard to notice" in the game, short barreled weapons have a higher dexterity value. Unfortunately only floating zone users will really notice the effect on this, especially on horizontal rotation. But try swinging an M107 versus an M4 up and down, and you'll notice the difference on the center tick of the cursor.

[Wolfstriked 11]

It is well know among all kinds of shooters that weapons with shorter barrels and less weight have not a stronger recoil in pure Joules, but one thats feels much harder due to less inertia of the weapon with a more pronounced muzzle climb, making auto fire harder to control.

It's the weapons weight that makes you feel the recoil differently.

Thats the reason why the recoil of a 12kg MG3 feels much "softer" than that of a 4,5kg G3 "battle rifle" in same 7.62x51 NATO caliber.

The drop in muzzle velocity is pratically neglectable in usual combat ranges which are 15-150m.

:eek:12kg to 4.5kg...thats2/3 the weapon missing.AK74 to AKS74u is just a drop of one pound.Muzzle velocity drops considerably for AKS from 900 to 730.I would say less recoil on the AKS.

[Panzer Jager 10]

You can always put recoil through a calculator, there are some that do that. While it is not 100% accurate it gives a decent approximation. 5.45x39 powder charge is somewhere near 25gr, although I know it's actually lower than that I don't know the exact number.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp