The AI's Biotic X-Ray Vision through certain objects: A bit of research on the matter

[Hedo 10]

Must have been somewhat tired the other day...I noticed there was no example hiding in the woods on Chernarus so I repacked it if anyone will try to reproduce this on their machines...

Test 1 - Hide_in_grass.Chernarus (surfaceType = CRGrass1, CRGrass2, CRGrassW1)

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When mission starts go prone directly and do not move a fin, just wait a couple of minutes. 95% of the time the Russian AI squad just passes by within a meter or two and does not detect me (as it should be since I'm wearing a Ghillie suit and are lying completely still in vegetation).

Test 2 - Hide_in_woods.Chernarus (surfaceType = CRForest1)

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The exact same mission copied an pasted to a nearby wood. Doing the same procedure as above and the Russian AI squad always detects me 100% of the time at ~30-40 m!?

Test 3 - Prone_on_tarmac.Chernarus (surfaceType = ?)

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Just for comparsion I copied the exact same mission to the tarmac on Chernarus airfield. Doing the same procedure as above and the Russian AI squad always detects me 100% of the time at ~40 m (as it should be since I'm on concrete).

Link to testmissions:

http://keycat.no-ip.com/files/A2_Hide_in_clutter.zip

/KC

Report this on CIT if you or someone else haven't already. This will help BIS a lot more.

If you don't want to post it, I may do it for you if you want. (with your permission of course)

[KeyCat 131]

Report this on CIT if you or someone else haven't already. This will help BIS a lot more.

If you don't want to post it, I may do it for you if you want. (with your permission of course)

Please do Hedo! I tried before but seems to have some browser issue with CIT and haven't got around to install another one just for that.

Would appreciate if you also posted the ticket number here.

Thanks!

/KC

[Dwarden 1124]

definitely post it on the CIT

btw. i think ghilie gives some bonus against AI spotting

[Hedo 10]

Please do Hedo! I tried before but seems to have some browser issue with CIT and haven't got around to install another one just for that.

Would appreciate if you also posted the ticket number here.

Thanks!

/KC

Posted: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/12144

I just need to know what version you tested it on and the skillFriendly and skillEnemy in your config. Would be probably better if you posted it to me by PM so we don't spam it here. Or if you can, post it in the comments on CIT.

[KeyCat 131]

PM sent and thanks for your help!

/KC

[bravo409 13]

IS the Camoflage issue ever going to be fixed I played a jungle map MANA and IM run arma2 an OA. The Ai can see me when im in the bush tuck in and they magically now where I'm even when I shot then move to a new location they know just where to find me please help thanks.

[NeMeSiS 11]

IS the Camoflage issue ever going to be fixed I played a jungle map MANA and IM run arma2 an OA. The Ai can see me when im in the bush tuck in and they magically now where I'm even when I shot then move to a new location they know just where to find me please help thanks.

If it uses addon objects they may be lacking a viewblock lod and you should consult the addonmaker.

[bravo409 13]

it uses brg_africa plants v1.23 even then where do I find a addonmaker

[NeMeSiS 11]

Thats Berghoff (Or Berghof), he probably has a topic on these forums about his plants, just use the search function.

[bravo409 13]

really getting pissed of with this AI...I downloaded NAM to see if there is a difference in detection when firing a silenced and non silence sniper rifle...Here is how it went down I have the enemy walking down the road I shoot one and I'm about 300m away ok so I then move another location and fire one more hit! then I move again by this time there firing at me so I move about 50 to 75 m away in a well concealed place some magical way they fined me what the HEll ...Anyone have this problem please help I love this game except this problem.

[maturin 12]

First of all, you're only 50m away. Unless it's a Vintorez or an MP5, a suppressor isn't going to do all that much good, realistically speaking.

Second of all, just because they're shooting doesn't mean they know where you are. They might be hosing down a large area of the map that includes your position.

If you don't want to be seen, don't let them have line of sight to you, because they will look once they establish direction and distance, and the alert AI are much better at picking out camouflaged bodies than the human eye is. So shoot and roll behind a bush or rock.

[metalcraze 290]

bravo409

You fire at enemies - when bullet hits it gives away the direction of an incoming fire so you should stay sti... You start to move around? Giving away yourself yourself?

What kind of sniper is that?

[bravo409 13]

Number one the ai shouldn't know where I'm when i move specialy when they didn't see me move. Number two they found me hidden behind a tree an under a bush the same color of my ghili suit. Specially when i could nearly see myself in the bush. Number three you are suppose to shoot an move so they don't figure out where you are. These are my arguments about these things...know what do you think of this.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Number one the ai shouldn't know where I'm when i move specialy when they didn't see me move. Number two they found me hidden behind a tree an under a bush the same color of my ghili suit. Specially when i could nearly see myself in the bush. Number three you are suppose to shoot an move so they don't figure out where you are. These are my arguments about these things...know what do you think of this.

When you shoot someone (and dont 1 hit kill him, i think) he will know your position, and thus so will all his groupmembers.

The suit will help against initial detection, but once they know where you are you might as well wear something pink, or hide behind something and flee when you are out of sight so they lose track of you. :p

Furthermore, you have to completely hide behind the viewblock lod of an object, if you toe sticks out you are spotted as if you are in an open field. You cannot hide behind most trees in ArmA2, they are not big enough, unless you can fly and hide in the leaves, however the trunk is usually smaller than you are. When it comes to bushes, stick to the middle and you should be safe, if you can see them they can see you.

The AI will track you based on last known speed and direction once you are out of sight, and can suppress your last known position, if you walk behind a bush and dont come out on the other side, you may be shot.

Also, the color of a suit doesnt matter, its all numbers in the end, and the ghillie guy just has a better camouflage value in the config than other units.

EDIT: And properly configged silenced weapon will help against AI detection compared to unsilenced weapons, i dont know what NAM is.

Edited April 6, 2011 by NeMeSiS

[metalcraze 290]

What sniper rifle do you use?

And as I've said when you start moving you also start to give away yourself. Especially considering that you run what? The 50-75 meters distance? That much of a movement among still life is quite noticeable.

F.e. let's take that BAF mission where you need to disable SCUD. You are given a sniper rifle that is anything but silenced (AS50). And it's a mission in the desert. I just found some bush, went prone there and started shooting. The best thing enemy did is firing in my general direction (when bullets fly anywhere but your position) and only after more shots. Only some time after that I was detected by an enemy squad incoming from the left some 150-200m away and they started putting bullets relatively close to me.

And I'm playing with Zeus AI plus AI skill to the max in difficulty settings - both give AI eagle eyes.

It's when I got up and started running to the extraction point that all hell broke lose.

The gillie suit is there for you not to run around but staying still and fit in with the rest of the nature.

Remember that intro video on Takistan where sniper and spotter just lie down and shoot? Hint-hint.

Furthermore, you have to completely hide behind the viewblock lod of an object, if you toe sticks out you are spotted as if you are in an open field

That's completely untrue. I've did tests on Chernarus with AI passing me 30m away and like half of my body was exposed behind the bush and they were spotting me only like in 1 case out of 5. In the remaining 4 after they've passed I was getting up, slowly coming from their rear 30m behind and wiping them all out.

And that's with Zeus AI too.

Edited April 6, 2011 by metalcraze

[NeMeSiS 11]

That's completely untrue. I've did tests on Chernarus with AI passing me 30m away and like half of my body was exposed behind the bush and they were spotting me only like in 1 case out of 5. In the remaining 4 after they've passed I was getting up, slowly coming from their rear 30m behind and wiping them all out.

Thats new to me, and i seriously wonder how they did that. :confused:

I'll test it later once i can be bothered.

[dmarkwick 261]

I would suspect that behavior can be seen when the enemy is in safe mode, but not in any sort of alerted mode.

[maturin 12]

Also, the color of a suit doesnt matter, its all numbers in the end, and the ghillie guy just has a better camouflage value in the config than other units.

That's incorrect. The ghillie the snipers wear in-game works well with certain kinds of grass.

Anyways, if you want to be a real sniper and remain undetected, then only fire one shot. Unless you are very close and in the AI's initial cone of vision, they will be oblivious after one shot. Then wait for a while a shoot again. But chances are if you are well-hidden, they will start suppressing randomly and advancing towards your probably position rather than pinpoint your exact location.

Edited April 6, 2011 by maturin

[NeMeSiS 11]

That's incorrect. The ghillie the snipers wear in-game works well with certain kinds of grass.

What do you mean by that? Certain groundtypes make you harder to spot no matter what type of unit you have, and types are grass are (IIRC!) bound to the groundtype. There are no individual camouflage values for groundtypes in a units config.

AI doesnt see colors. (Cue Walker's "AI doesnt see at all" speech, but i am lazy and as all the calculations, values, LODs and everything represent 'seeing' i am going to call it 'seeing')

Edited April 6, 2011 by NeMeSiS

[pooroldspike 128]

Just a couple of points-

In the game, when we see an enemy run behind a bush, we fire through the bush and get him even though we can no longer see him, that's a standard real-world tactic too.

So it's only fair that the AI enemy does the same to us isn't it, so why all the bellyaching, ha ha..:)

In military terms, anything that can be fired through (eg bush, long grass, wooden fence or a small hut etc) isn't real cover at all because it won't stop bullets.

If you want real cover get behind something solid like a stone wall or a house etc.

PS- As for the enemy having 'x-ray eyes', my experience is that he doesn't (although I need to run tests).

If he saw you go behind the bush he'll fire at the bush, but if he didn't see you go behind it, he won't fire because he doesn't know you're there, that's the impression I get.

Edited April 6, 2011 by PoorOldSpike

[andersson 285]

really getting pissed of with this AI...I downloaded NAM to see if there is a difference in detection when firing a silenced and non silence sniper rifle...

Then you should consult the mod-makers of that "NAM"-mod. You cant blame BIS AI for potentially poor configs in usermade content.

[bravo409 13]

ok you people aren't getting it...The Ai litarelly know where I am even when I go way out of the way like way in the bush talking on last test I did 200m..There is no possible way they knew which way I turned and direction I went...I understand that they go for last location but im not there so how do they know I went to the location I ran to if they dont see me doing it. It doesn't matter where I go they find me and kill me. To me that is cheating on AI part I understand they should see through bushes but come on I'm in thick of it an even I can't see them so that is stupid.

[NeMeSiS 11]

ok you people aren't getting it...The Ai litarelly know where I am even when I go way out of the way like way in the bush talking on last test I did 200m..There is no possible way they knew which way I turned and direction I went...I understand that they go for last location but im not there so how do they know I went to the location I ran to if they dont see me doing it. It doesn't matter where I go they find me and kill me. To me that is cheating on AI part I understand they should see through bushes but come on I'm in thick of it an even I can't see them so that is stupid.

Did you even read what we discussed the last couple of pages? The default bushes work fine, the AI cannot see through them. Drop yourself on one side of a bush in the editor, and an enemy on the other side. Dont make a sound. Does he shoot you? No.

[Xenios 0]

ok you people aren't getting it...The Ai litarelly know where I am even when I go way out of the way like way in the bush talking on last test I did 200m..There is no possible way they knew which way I turned and direction I went...I understand that they go for last location but im not there so how do they know I went to the location I ran to if they dont see me doing it. It doesn't matter where I go they find me and kill me. To me that is cheating on AI part I understand they should see through bushes but come on I'm in thick of it an even I can't see them so that is stupid.

No, Bravo409, you aren't getting it. You are talking about the AI seeing through bushes on unofficial maps created by third parties. You need to complain to the addon makers about their vegetation not working correctly, not Bohemia. The AI work fine (at least in this regard) on Bohemia's maps without any third party addons mucking things up.

Here's an example of what I mean: Some independent addon maker decides to make a new gun for Arma 2, but forgets to make any ammunition that works in that gun. If you tried to use AI with those nonfiring guns, would you then complain to Bohemia that their AIs aren't programmed correctly? No, you wouldn't, because the AI clearly shoot just fine with the guns in the stock game. You would complain to the addon maker that his gun doesn't work correctly.

And when you do complain to that independent addon maker, you should do it politely and constructively, since they are working for free.

[metalcraze 290]

In the game, when we see an enemy run behind a bush, we fire through the bush and get him even though we can no longer see him

That's unfair. You used your Biotic X-Ray Vision.

I wonder if people crying about AI tried playing with AI leader?

When he orders you to engage the enemy you can see a red target - either where AI thinks the enemy is or if he sees the enemy directly - on the enemy itself. When the enemy starts running and runs behind a wall or bush the red target continues to move in that direction with the last known speed of the enemy and it often turns out that it points at nothing when reaching the other side of the wall/bush

Then it either disappears because AI leader can no longer see the enemy or if he spots that enemy in time again - it jumps to that enemy's position.

That's how AIs act in this game. There is no X-Ray vision. This is called logical behaviour. Just because you ran behind some bush doesn't mean you suddenly became invisible and teleported into some parallel dimension where AI cannot engage you.

In fact I think AI has not enough of "X-Ray Vision". F.e. at SDood's mission on Takistan called EOD Alpha I had a situation where AI was hidden behind a bush, standing (and perfectly seen to me). My AI teammate was standing and facing that bush just 5 meters away. And they couldn't spot each other until I came and killed that enemy AI after having a few facepalms.

Edited April 6, 2011 by metalcraze