It was bound to happen sooner or later

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 18 2002,01:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The US didnt go to Afghanistan to free the people there. That had nothing what so ever to do with it.<span id='postcolor'>

yes, but the people of Afghanistan arent exactly Afghan-Cong guerillas either. They are not the enemy. In my quite humble opinion, it doesnt exactly get you very far by racking up all these civillian fatalities when your just trying to find one guy. Granted, it seems we have to get through the taliban to do so, but we should at least be able to distinguish between a threat and a non-threat. I dont think truck loads of refugees trying to flee their bombed out homes qualify as a valid air strike target.

[Longinius 1]

Was surfing the web looking for an old audio clip I found once. I found this instead...

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/korea/hill282.html

Very interesting reading. A proof that friendly fire isn't and that when the going gets tough the tough kick ass.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 18 2002,10:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">maby we shouldent have done anything then.. ya know.. just say "mr binladen.. please dont do that again, we know you hate us for who we are and what we stand for but please leave us alone" then said "mr taleban, sorry you harbor terrorists and starve your own people to death, and murder them for crimes such as learning, teaching and showing their face, please be nicer"<span id='postcolor'>

I agree on that US had to do *something*, without going into specifics.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the US tried to avoid this shit by asking the taleban to let us look for bin-laden in afghanistan.. bush gave them more then enough time to consider it and they basically told us "fuck you, he owns us" (which is more or less true)...<span id='postcolor'>

If you want to know why American-bashing is a commonly occuring phenomenon read you post again. "The US tried to avoid this shit by asking....". Who the fuck are you to tell an independent country what to do and not to do??? And then you have the nerve to talk about restoring democracy in the world, when your diplomacy is :"You give us what we want or we'll blow you up!". The EU is even worse, that is Americas little lap dog, never questioning anything. Pathetic.

No, seriously, the US defends US interests, and that is ok. I just wish they would stop justifying it as protection of democracy etc. The EU needs to grow a backbone and a political will of it's own and realise that what is best for the US isn't always best for EU.

[LordZach 0]

6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ April 18 2002,016)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And Acculaud, where exactly are you getting your information? We havent dropped anything near a tactical nuke in Afghanistan... and mushroom clouds are a surprisingly normal effect in explosions... just not nearly as large, bright, or distinctive as a nuclear device's mushroom cloud would be. 3,000+ civilians confirmed dead... not true. A number of 200 would be exaggerating.<span id='postcolor'>

i think he's talking about the daisy cutters.

the 3000+ numbers come from al jazeera, the saudi (or whoever down there) state controlled media, gee now why would they want to bump them up?  you don't get 3000 civilian casulties from dropping bombs on military targets, unless maybe you shove civilians into SAM sites like saddam does before he has them shoot at allied aircraft.

[Longinius 1]

"the 3000+ numbers come from al jazeera. you don't get 3000 civilian casulties from dropping bombs on military targets, unless maybe you shove civilians into SAM sites like saddam does before he has them shoot at allied aircraft."

No, not really. If you bothered to check the links I provided you'd see that Al Jazeera has nothing to do with it. But ofcourse, checking the links might prove you wrong, so don't do it.

[LordZach 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What causes the documented high level of civilian casualties -- 3,000 - 3,400 [October 7, 2001 thru March 2002] civilian deaths -- in the U.S. air war upon Afghanistan?<span id='postcolor'>

funny, i don't remember hearing about any cursor reports in afghanistan

same with anything from comw. go dig up some independent confirmation from CNN or something. they love to bash the military.

[Akira 0]

Saw on the news the Air National Guard F-16 pilot is most likely at fault.

The Canadians were performing live fire practice, when the F-16 strayed into "restricted" airspace. Apparently, the pilot mistakenly thought the Canadians were Al Queda or Taliban. Request to engage was transmitted. The F-16s were given permission to paint the target but NOT to drop. Apparently he dropped.

Sounds like right now its on the pilots head.

[LordZach 0]

if that's the case he will never fly again.

[Satchel 0]

Such things are sad, but there is´t really something that would guarantee an immediate cease of fracticide in a conflict, whereever there are many missions/sorties ongoing in an area coupled with high mobility these things are about to happen- unless you replace the human factor on the field with machines maybe, but even those would be operated and programmed by humans.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

This thread has gone a bit off topic, let me re-alighn it.

The four dead are:

*Sgt. Marc D. Leger, 29, of Lancaster, Ontario

*Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer, 25, of Montreal, Quebec

*Pvt. Richard A. Green, 22, of Edmonton, Alberta

*Pvt. Nathan Smith, 27, of Tatamagouche, Nova Scotia

The seriously injured have been sent to Rammstein Airbase in Germany and the less injured stayed in Kandahar. The flags at my Armoury (and all others in the forces) have been lowered to half-mast for respect for the dead.

This incedent does not surpise me, it was bound to happen sooner or later. Apparently the pilot in the F-16 saw muzzle flashes from the ground and assumed he was being fired at. I speculate that he might have also seen tracers bouncing up into the air from the live fire excercise, leading him to believe he was under 'attack'.

The pilot radioed that he was being 'fired at' and requested that he be allowed to drop an LGB; request denied. The pilot was only supposed to engage in self defence, since small arms fire is no real threat to an F-16 his request was denied.

He envoked his right of self defence and dropped his bomb anyway.

Both sides were aware that there was a live-fire excercise going on in the area 14 km south of the Kandahar airbase, aparently the pilot forgot about that.

Anyone with a lick of common sense would know that the Taliban are pretty much defeated and would not posses any functional AAA equipment, let alone deploy it. It seems to me that the pilot was a bit action starved and was looking for the smallest excuse to bomb the crap out of something. He did not excersise any restraint, nor give any thought to whom he might be bombing, nor did he bother to check where he was in the first place. I hope he definately loses his wings for life, he should be flying transport aircraft from now on.

I wasn't surprised by this because nearly a quarter of U.S. casualties from the Gulf War were caused by 'freindly fire'. I am not saying that this is strictly an American thing, it has happened in other countries too. It's just sad that Canada goes to war and loses more troops to Americans than to the Taliban.

Tyler

[Longinius 1]

"Anyone with a lick of common sense would know that the Taliban are pretty much defeated and would not posses any functional AAA equipment, let alone deploy it. It seems to me that the pilot was a bit action starved and was looking for the smallest excuse to bomb the crap out of something. He did not excersise any restraint, nor give any thought to whom he might be bombing, nor did he bother to check where he was in the first place. I hope he definately loses his wings for life, he should be flying transport aircraft from now on."

So you honestly think US troops might actually fire when not necessary, against unconfirmed targets? That can't be true because they always check their targets. See the discussion about Civilian Casualties. America would never ever shoot unless they knew what they were shooting at. No way. No how. Yes, sarcasm.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So you honestly think US troops might actually fire when not necessary, against unconfirmed targets? That can't be true because they always check their targets. See the discussion about Civilian Casualties. America would never ever shoot unless they knew what they were shooting at. No way. No how.<span id='postcolor'>

Sarcasm noted.  

[Major Fubar 0]

If I remember correctly a few British vehicles we're destroyed by US pilots during the Gulf War:

"That ain't an Abram's, fire at will!"

[Longinius 1]

"If I remember correctly a few British vehicles we're destroyed by US pilots during the Gulf War:

"That ain't an Abram's, fire at will!""

Yeah, there were a couple of nasty ones. One where a plane took out two British APC's and killed some seven guys. Another where two American AH's took out two Bradleys and then engaged survivors with guns before finding out they were friendlies.

[RonW 0]

Hello:

If you wish to leave a message of condolence or some comforting words, please visit the following website:

http://www.dnd.ca/eng/index.html

or a direct link:

http://dgpaapp.forces.gc.ca/messages/message_default_e.asp

Thanks,

Ron

[Die Alive 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LordZach @ April 18 2002,08:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if that's the case he will never fly again.<span id='postcolor'>

"And if you screw up just this much, you'll be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog shit out of Hong Kong!" Top Gun

-=Die Alive=-