Lack of multiplayer teamwork.

[Arma-2-Guru 55]

Has anyone else noticed that multiplayer, Domination in particular seem to be lacking a huge amount in teamwork. I joined a server just before and everyone was going off on there own and getting killed, then moaning at me because I wasn't reviving them, even though I was under fire and didn't want to risk my life by running out into the road to revive some idiot who has racked up 20 deaths. Has anyone else noticed this or do people just not like being in my team?

Oh and to add to it, I told everyone that we could probably use my squads Teamspeak server and they probably wouldn't mind and the reply was "Can't be bothered, too much effort". Not as much effort as making your way to the main objective ever time you die from the lack of teamwork. It's also annoying that the majority of players seem to go as a pilot just so they can fly around a blackhawk for a while then crash it. If someone wants a test flight, go in the editor.

Edited May 14, 2010 by BushWookie

[Inkompetent 0]

Simply put: As in every single existing game public servers have the same level of teamwork as lemmings have sense of self preservation.

If you want to play ANY game and enjoy actual teamplay, join a community/clan/squad/whatever that suits your preferences.

[chefd261 0]

Don't know if it is relevant and don't want to advertise on this thread but on the 10th/20th SFG server we have started playing Dom wound system with the Death Timer at 1400 in order to promote teamwork and it worked like a charm.We did loose ALOT of people at first when they went out and played Rambo and could not respawn but those who stayed drew more.

Cheer's ChefD

[Zipper5 74]

Say what? That's over 23 minutes of waiting! :eek:

I get the idea of promoting teamwork, but 23 minutes... That would just promote boredom. Especially in a game mode like Domination...

[beton 2]

Well...

in my eyes there are some reasons for lacking Teamwork.

1. Many people are unable to subordinate to a commander and try to do the job they are given cause they think they are "Rulors".

2. Most of the medics are just medics to heal themselves.

3. There are still too many people who are just hunting frags e.g. snipermedics laying somewhere alone in the forest far from the objective.

4. Many people insist on driving a tank alone which is stupid.

thats some of my experiences.... but i still enjoy playing multipayer..

[Liam!!!! 10]

Well I have yet to play a multiplayer game on ArmA 2 despite having owned it for 1 year :/ I usually just mess around in the editor and I'd love to play online. I find it hard to believe that people do not use teamwork on this game, despite knowing its the only way they can win...

[Inkompetent 0]

despite knowing its the only way they can win...

That's the problem with so many servers running more or less unmodified versions of Domination, since the mission per default is VERY friendly to lone wolfing, and there's almost no punishment what so ever for dying. Teamwork ends up being limited to the pilots that fly people to the front. It's the most casual-friendly mission made for ArmA I think. It *can* be very good if played properly, but good luck finding it properly played on an unadmined public server.

[UKMERC 10]

Say what? That's over 23 minutes of waiting! :eek:

I get the idea of promoting teamwork, but 23 minutes... That would just promote boredom. Especially in a game mode like Domination...

Its only boring if you die hence working as a team means sticking together covering each others backs and like the wookie said get on comms its a hell of a lot easier to work as a team.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

23 minutes sounds quite public unfriendly, especially if poor mans revive is not in use. But for an organized game, 10-20 minutes are still below what you find on hardcore game modes. But the default 20 seconds kills multiplayer as long as it is combined with magic relocation capabilities such as MHQ respawn or teleportation. :( In my version/edit (quite heavy edit), I'm using two minute respawn timer in the normal ACE version, and a one minute respawn timer in the ACE WOUNDS version combined with a 300 second (or 60 second if you choose it) revive timer.

And when I've joined others to play it, I haven't heard a single complaint about too long respawn time. Sure, some leave when they can't go Rambo, but that's kind of the point. For those who play with the slightest amount of seriousness, respawn time is not an issue, since they try to stay alive.

And, two minutes are not a long time to wait. Sometimes you're just plain unlucky to get killed. On hardcore games, that gives a hell of a waiting time (seagull for an hour is NOT fun). But at instant 20 seconds, there is no point in even trying to stay alive, and that is unfortunately heavily reflected on the public games where everything is just mayhem.

A two minute respawn timer isn't problematic unless you die a lot. Hell even a five minute respawn timer/poor mans revive would work well on a good populated server.

[Zipper5 74]

Its only boring if you die hence working as a team means sticking together covering each others backs and like the wookie said get on comms its a hell of a lot easier to work as a team.

But even when you're working as a team it's very likely that you're still going to die in a game-world as dynamic as Arma 2's.

[qwertz 10]

This is not a game (mode) problem but rather a server/community problem. You can't really force people to engage in teamplay on a public server (there a people that genuinely want to play on their own), you can only encourage them to join your Teamspeak (Mumble...) which then will lead to better teamplay.

This takes time and effort, hoewever, it pays out - we have now between 50% and 100% of the players on Teamspeak on our pub server on Teamspeak at all times.

[UKMERC 10]

But even when you're working as a team it's very likely that you're still going to die in a game-world as dynamic as Arma 2's.

yeah but if you have like us people who work as a team ie you have an assault element and a covering element, air support there is always someone who is available to pick you up we had a fair few pubbers on last night who enjoyed it this way and they even thanked us for it as well.

I suppose its just what your personal preferences are when your looking for realistic tactical play and thats how we like to roll sure some people were put off but the majority enjoyed playing this way.

Edited May 15, 2010 by UKMERC

[Sardaukar17 10]

All you really need to do is invite someone to team up with you. If it works out stick together and invite another. Trade info and build up a good friends list. All of this stuff that forces long wait times and punishes people for trying to figure out the game is counter to having fun in my opinion. Sometimes people want to just run and gun and sometimes it is a blast to war it as a team. Depends on the mood of the player, the map, etc... I think a good map should be open enough to allow for a balance of both.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

You may not be able to force people into teamplay, but you may punish those who acts like pure idiots and does nothing but get killed all the time without a sense of penalty for doing it. It doesn't only get themselves killed, but when they act like that, it ruins the immersion for those that are trying to have a nice gaming experience.

[Zipper5 74]

yeah but if you have like us people who work as a team ie you have an assault element and a covering element, air support there is always someone who is available to pick you up we had a fair few pubbers on last night who enjoyed it this way and they even thanked us for it as well.

I suppose its just what your personal preferences are when your looking for realistic tactical play and thats how we like to roll sure some people were put off but the majority enjoyed playing this way.

Even with all of that someone is still likely to get shot, especially if you're playing for prolonged sessions. Heck, they might even die due to a mistake they made or a mistake made by their team-mate. To have to wait 23 minutes to get back into playing again...

Well, that's definitely not for me. When the situation requires it I always welcome forcing teamwork with open arms, but if the death penalty for doing so was having to wait a whole 23 minutes (which could be the length of the entire session in some cases) to respawn, I would just ragequit. If I had to wait that long... I would prefer no respawn at all. But hey, if people can stand that, and they enjoy it, then more power to them. :)

[terox 316]

Teamwork requires communications between players

In your standard public domination/warfare server game, you may find small pockets of teamwork going on, but certainly not larger scale unless every player is on the same comms server, eg Teamspeak for example and they all speak the same language releatively well.

If you really want to play the game as intended, then you need to get yourself off the public domain track and find yourself a decent gaming community that uses a voice comms server (V.O.I.P is not really that good), check out their requirements from their website, eg addons etc etc and try it out

PvP in essence does not provide large scale teamwork, CooP however on the right server with a bunch of mature guys will give you that.

Joining a community server without being able to converse with the majority of players on their and finding one that does not have a "Mission Commander" will do nothing more than frustrate you.

They are out there, but you have to put the effort in to find them

[qwertz 10]

PvP in essence does not provide large scale teamwork, CooP however on the right server with a bunch of mature guys will give you that.

Sorry, wrong. What makes you believe that has anything to do with CooP vs PvP? Most ppl on our server are on comms and play as a team - this is just an example, and its all up to the server admins to encourage the players to be on TS.

[mosh 0]

PvP in essence does not provide large scale teamwork, CooP however on the right server with a bunch of mature guys will give you that.

What a load of crap. ATOW and Charlie Foxtrot (whatever the hell it's called) are just 2 examples of how large PvP matches have loads of teamwork.

I see just as much (usually more) teamwork on qwertz's public PvP server as I see in any coop game.

And are you saying mature players don't play PvP? :rolleyes:

I guess I can say coop, in essence, doesn't provide a challenge because your playing brainless AI? No, I wouldn't say something so stupid.

And this reply was made before I drank my morning coffee, so pardon my bluntness... ;)

Edited May 17, 2010 by Mosh

[terox 316]

Touched a soft spot did I ?

Trying to defend your gamestyle of PvP. Why? I didnt see it threatened

Oh by the way, I am fully capable of stating my own opinions, there is no need to assume I meant something that I didnt say

And are you saying mature players don't play PvP?

Try some more coffee

If the servers you mentioned do indeed have the majority of the players on the same teamspeak server, then in essence you should be agreeing with my point about

Teamwork requires communications between players

In your standard public domination/warfare server game, you may find small pockets of teamwork going on, but certainly not larger scale unless every player is on the same comms server, eg Teamspeak for example and they all speak the same language releatively well.

To try and state that a public server that is open to all, (Be it coop or PvP) with no restrictions on language, or requirement to be on the game server's voice comms application and that the teamwork on that server is en mass rather than split into small pockets of players who are communicating with one n other, in my opinion is rather far fetched.

A PvP player may want to just do his own thing and not work as part of a team, this is fairly acceptible on a Dom or Warfare server, but in a coop (cooperative) environment, it is not as easily accepted for the pure essence of what Coop is.

There is a reason why a lot of servers close their doors to the public, and that is all to do with creating good teamwork environment without the chance of a rogue element joining mid game and screwing the mission up.

One of the essential differences between PvP and CoOp is the pace of the game. PvP being much faster and with that (for real teamwork) the ability to control and coordinate these players who can be spread out all over the place, either at respawn or cowboying or trying to work together is far more difficult than in a coop, simply because of the speed at which things occur and the mentality of SOME players.

Also the typical commercial missions have multiple objectives which causes disorganisation as Player A trys to capture point A while Player B trys to capture point B.

I was a fervent PvP player back in the OFP days, even involved in a competition clan. I then switched to CooP and with the right guys with the right attitude, I find a well organised CooP far more fulfilling than a "Get shot, respawn, go capture town" cycle with only X% of players working together.

So my opinions are based on a perspective of one who has tried both types of BIS gaming.

I am sure there is a server out there that can provide good teamwork in a PvP environment, however I dont believe you will find it in the public domain and if you think you have, I would beg to differ for the reasons stated above

The point is where can you find TEAMWORK, as in everyone is working together

You will need to find a server with some form of restricted access, eg requiring you to be on a voice comms server or download an addon pack, or need a password

That server needs to be well run, well organised with mature admins, not teenyboppers

essentially not public domain

Edited May 17, 2010 by Terox

[An Fiach 10]

Touched a soft spot did I ?

Trying to defend your gamestyle of PvP. Why? I didnt see it threatened

Oh by the way, I am fully capable of stating my own opinions, there is no need to assume I meant something that I didnt say

Try some more coffee

If the servers you mentioned do indeed have the majority of the players on the same teamspeak server, then in essence you should be agreeing with my point about

Not trying to ridicule me. I come from a democracy and am entitled to my damned opinion just like you are.

So you are saying that the same thing that is required for teamwork in coop can't provide teamwork in pvp. That was your statement. Are you trying to correct that now? Those elements you mentioned are required for teamwork and game mode has nothing to do with it.

These forums are not a democracy but you are entitled to your opinion, just as he is entitled to say he thinks you are bat-shit crazy for making such an unfounded and sweeping statement.

Personally I think that you just didn't think that through. Public servers require constant administration to accomplish team work and to keep trolls away whether it is coop or pvp and to get any kind of teamwork you need players willing to work together.

[hund 0]

While I don't believe that teamwork is nescessarily lacking in PvP games, I do think that the teamwork that Mr. Terox mentions is of a different kind than the one you are referring to. I am sure both gametypes have their own brand of teamwork, no doubt about it, which one you prefer is largely a matter of personal taste, i guess.

But, by and large I see more teamwork happening more naturally when I play coops than when I play PvPs. I am sure there are some excellent PvP communities out there, I just haven't been lucky enough to encounter one that didn't have that distinct egotrippin' vibe to it.

Now cut out the flaming and personal attacks, you whiney babbehs.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Hund

[An Fiach 10]

While I don't believe that teamwork is nescessarily lacking in PvP games, I do think that the teamwork that Mr. Terox mentions is of a different kind than the one you are referring to. I am sure both gametypes have their own brand of teamwork, no doubt about it, which one you prefer is largely a matter of personal taste, i guess.

But, by and large I see more teamwork happening more naturally when I play coops than when I play PvPs. I am sure there are some excellent PvP communities out there, I just haven't been lucky enough to encounter one that didn't have that distinct egotrippin' vibe to it.

Now cut out the flaming and personal attacks, you whiney babbehs.

Of a different kind? please elaborate.

[whisper 0]

Seen more communication and teamwork going on large scale on Planetside 130vs130 servers full PvP than on any A2 coop game I made bare few exceptions that were lower scale (Zeus server and such comes to mind).

Stating that by nature, large scale PvP will not cater for teamwork and comms is wrong

Biggest teamwork seen so far on OFP serie has been in big PvP campaigns like OFCRA, for me

As for public server, as soon as it's large scale, be it Coop or PvP, you won't find much teamwork. Terox told it himself, you just need to find the "right group of people", whatever the game mode played. To have natural teamplay on public server requires the correct "infrastructure" inside the game mode to be done. That's why I mentioned Planetside, cause this game had some good design exactly for that, teamwork and communication on very large scale on a public server, and it worked (at least, more than in other titles).

Edited May 17, 2010 by whisper

[galzohar 31]

Respawn in any game mode makes teamwork a few levels more difficult, as it's simply that much harder to work together with someone who just respawned on the other side of the island (or even just on the other side of town) comapred to someone who was with you right from the start. In coop it doesn't bring up as much difficulty, though, as you can just wait for that guy and the AI in most missions will not really mind, and in missions where the AI is scripted in a smarter way, you will see teamwork being made that much harder as again it would be hard to work together with someone who spawned on the other side of the islands when you're busy fighting enemies right where you are.

Another thing is that a lot of "teamwork tactics" that people use in coops don't work on players.

It's not about "X type of player uses more teamwork", it's more that certain game elements make teamwork easier/more difficult to use. PvP can have teamwork, it just takes that much more effort from the players, and as a result you will see it happening a lot less.

[hund 0]

Of a different kind? please elaborate.

Galz said it quite well, but I'll give it a go anyways:

I am used a fairly rigid team structure, where you get a role and thats what you do. Team comes before individual, even when doing so is detrimental to the outcome of the mission (leave no man behind and all that).

From the PvP I've played, the individual comes before the team if doing so will win you the mission. This I guess is the competitive element, where you will do anything to beat your opponent.

If you put a coop team against a pvp team, the latter would win everytime because the coopers are restricted by certain dogmas that simply don't apply to pvpers. Both teams cooperate, but along different lines.

I hope that explains what i meant.

For me personally, teamplay is king and I don't really care much about the killing (it gets old after nine years), so coop caters more to my taste.

PS: The teamplay in planetside was quite a sight, back in the good ol days. I played with Sturmgrenadier, and having a complete battlegroup of 100+ players doing their thing is just a tremendous experience.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Hund