space bar poll

[*LK1* 10]

I hope this video could help the discussion:

uApmh2m9Oy0

The mission is at DH, issue #4253.

helps a lot thx :)

[maddogx 13]

6-4ly_932mE

[jw custom 56]

At the same place as all the other helps/aids - making it a server controlled difficulty setting instead of forcing it on us.

The post you quoted was in reply against removing the space bar function completely, i'll already stated making it a server setting would be reasonable solution. I don't use the function just like i dont play with crosshairs but thats no reason for me to want it removed!

[--TdC--Rico.it 10]

i vote yes...remove space bar...why?the reality way is a good way:bounce3:

[HyperU2 11]

I didn't even know you could do this before I read about it on here, I don't do it now because I never used it before.

[AnimalMother92 10]

I think removing it for Vet/Expert is a good idea. Leave it on for Recruit and Reg though as "training wheels" (like the red orbs around enemies etc). Using it feels cheap.

[alef 0]

This is my understanding and facts after the test done for the video, previous experience and the discussions here and at A2CIT:

1. Spacebar is the default key for the "Quick Command" feature
   Spacebar key is also used, in combination with Left Ctrl, for the "High Command" feature

   
   

2. You can "Quick Command" your units to nearTargets[] objects and building positions
   This help selecting targets for you group units instead of the "Target" radio menu (key 2), that shows only a short description plus the clock direction. I suppose they share the same nearTargets[] array of the player unit

   
   

3. In his Domination, Xeno uses a display key event handler to block the spacebar key, when the parameter is enabled
   It's not only the "Quick Command" the problem, so the spacebar key, but also the action menu will show the cursor text with identification and range. "action menu" is the one you open rolling the mouse wheel

   
   

4. The cursor always shows a text with the range it points to
   This can't be removed in any difficulty settings. I consider this is an anomaly because you get for free always an accurate range finder. The ASR mod below fixes this clearing the font used to display the text

   
   

5. AutoSpot setting in difficulties config
   If not set, you need right-click (action
   "revealTarget"
   ) on the enemy unit to report its position. This will add it to nearTargets[]
   
   
   This wort a deeper testing for this spacebar issue. At a glance, when enabled seems to be too much sensible. In my video, the player unit spotted the two enemies at time 0 without zooming at all

   
   

6. nearTargets[] accuracy seems shared for units in a group
   This happened in a separate test. I remember having seen this: units in the same group get the accuracy overwritten for the same target, also if group units are far away betweem them or have no visibility on the target, like behind a wall

   
   

7. Different recognition ability based on unit class
   A sniper see and recognize better at greater distances, probably varies also with the optic or vehicle he is using

   
   

Here two tickets at A2CIT related to spacebar or recognition issues:

Friendly Tag should be visible without crosshair enabled

Disable HUD Information when pressing the space key in veteran/expert settings and/or make it an option (spacebar scanning)

Here a mod to disable cursor text. It sets CfgInGameUI::Cursor::font to "ASR_nullfont", which in turn is set as CfgFontFamilies::ASR_nullfont::fonts[] = {}

ASR Disable Cursor Text

(armaholic download)

I think that it's not only the spacebar, but a mix of things that lead to this cheat, that's why I've tried to break them down here.

[NoRailgunner 0]

+ you get the lock-on status from Javelin/Metis + AA launchers.

Perhaps the space-bar was designed to have something like an "allround-click" feature?

[*LK1* 10]

I didn't even know you could do this before I read about it on here, I don't do it now because I never used it before.

:(

do you know there is an action key called "switch gunner" or something like that.

if you select a key for that action you can switch from gunner seat to commander and vise versa just with 1 klick..instead to switch from tank/apc ecc..by using the menu option with your mouse.

what this has to do with the thread?nothing sorry :o but this is another unknown option avaible...

[rübe 127]

I can see how you want to get rid of spacebar-scanning for gamemodes like PvP. Feels like cheating, doesn't it? The same applies to the map functionality in easy mode: spotted enemies are drawn with an icon on the map with a certain accuracy. As some guys already have pointed out: spacebar-scanning is only possible for exactly these reported entities. It is the ingame/no-map equivalent to access exactly this information - the information about spotted/reported entities on the field, which doesn't need to be accurate at all (already elaborated by others...).

Now again, in a PvP-match, this information might feel like cheating to you. But demanding to get rid of this alltogether because of your preference of how you like to play the game is just silly, because you miss one of the key features of Arma which is playing as a leader - be it in singleplayer or in a warefare game. Seriously... have you never wondered why this spacebar-scanning is there in the first place?

It's all about commanding (assigning targets to) your own squad. How else would you assign specific targets to any of your AI-buddies if not for this system? E.g. lets take out the leader first, then the AT guys, right? Would you rather select your buddies, fiddle with the radio command system, assign target (radio 2-??), uhm .. "Soldier at 12 o'clock", nono stupid, it's "Soldier at 12 o'clock", uhm, or was it "Soldier at 12 o'clock"?

Or would you rather open the map and assign your targets there (clicking on the displayed enemy-icons)? Or would you rather point at the targets ingame by means of mousepointing/spacebar-scanning?

ohhh..

That's why, this feature has to stay, because it's an important interface for every leader. If you never play as leader with AI buddies in your team, then good for you (though you miss out on one of the most fun aspects of this game). But don't act as if this option wouldn't be a key-part of Arma and consequently demand that this interface needs to be removed. Are you fucking kidding me? This interface is - as shown - totally essential to a core aspect of this game, needed for every gamemode where a player commands AI (such as in singleplayer or warefare).

Sure, this interface isn't needed for missions where no player commands any AI at all (for you PvP and Coop fags out there, hehe). Fine. Disable it as a mission designer (and yeah, there is possibly room for improvement here). But by all means, this game NEEDS this interface everytime you're in command (again, there is always room for improvements).

End of the story.

[*LK1* 10]

uApmh2m9Oy0

man i understand what you mean but in other easier difficulty mode, has 1 video has showed it works even if you have not detected the enemy.so pretty much a "newbie tool". in vet. and expert seems like it works only with enemies detected(fortunately..)

what i/we( who has voted for second option and the first) is the possibility to
turn it completely off at least for expert mode since that space bar can work
as a laser range finder.

range finder is not difficult at all to add in game.so instead to add the space bar in expert mode they could add that new tool.

in RL is not so easy (if you want to be precise)to establish distances.why then in arma 2,IN EXPERT MODE,should be by using a function avaible for all soldiers?


dear BIS give us a new tool,lase range finder, and the possibility to switch that space bar off
for expert mode.so the people which has voted for the first and the second poll option will be satisfied.and the others which are very attached at the space bar can play with other difficulty modes. Edited May 2, 2010 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[{bdr}*nemesi* 22]

I understand commanding AI is one aspect of the game but there are also other aspects that need to be considered

In PvP the spacebar scanning is quite unfear and unrealistic as everybody can easily understand

If ppl say we should use mods I answer that mods may create issues, for example high impact on server when running games with a lot of players, also it forces everyone to download the mod and may create troubles for large scale events, lastly I want to say that the "vanilla" arma2 is the game guaranteed by BIS so this game should maintain the high standards of a simulation game in itself

So BIS please consider this, and what about the Arrowhead expansion? will this issue be solved there?

[rübe 127]

In PvP the spacebar scanning is quite unfear and unrealistic as everybody can easily understand

uhm, no? Though it may feel like cheating to you, it is absolutely not. Everybody can use it equally. So it's neither unfair, nor is it unrealistic.

This is no cheat. This is the implementation of the concept of information sharing. What happens if someone spots an enemy? Does he jump right into action? Or would he rather inform his side about the enemy first? You know... just in case he's not gonna make it...

The current solution (easy settings assumed, including the map markers) is quite effective to model this process. If someone from your squad spots an enemy, this knowledge will be transfered to you by updating the entities on your map, by drawing these entities according to the given information (which is not always accurate and soon will be of no use if not updated through respotting). It is this representation of your knowledge that gets drawn to the map and it is exactly this pool of information you can query with spacebar-scanning. You do not magically spot everybody. No, it's the information you're supposed to know. It's your knowledge (as in the knowledge of your avatar).

If you don't wanna know about your avatars knowledge and rather be forced to "manually" communicate every single thing you spot ingame to your teammates per chat or teamspeak, fine. Update your map manually, manage spotted enemies manually, create markers and delete the markers and repeat every so often... If this sounds like fun to you, go on. Nobody will stop you.

Wouldn't somebody supervise any military operation from a safe distance, doing exactly this for you nowadays anyway? You know, like managing gathered live information, updating maps for all the involved units, like maybe coordinate the operation and stuff?

What's your point? Everybody screwing around on the map, managing the shared information is neither realistic (I sure hope todays armys are better organized) nor is it fun. And given the spacebar-scanning is in no way more powerfull than looking at the map, it's like you do not wanna have your cake and for gods sake, you wouldn't eat it anyway.

[*LK1* 10]

mmm i dont know if is it unfair since everyone on the game has the same options,but as nemesi as said yeah,is pretty much unrealistic and a bit lame(for me)

What happens if someone spots an enemy? Does he jump right into action? Or would he rather inform his side about the enemy first? You know... just in case he's not gonna make it...

The current solution (easy settings assumed, including the map markers) is quite effective to model this process. If someone from your squad spots an enemy ecc.

i don't undestand this point:where is the relation with the space bar?

no offence,it could be im not so smart to understand the link since it's 6.00 o'clock in my country :eek::eek: time to go bed.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

This is no cheat. This is the implementation of the concept of information sharing

That I can fully agree with. And the spacebar lets you control your AI much better than the number system (number system has no concept of direction, nor highlight the enemy you want your AI to attack).

So maybe the solution is to be able to fully turn off all kinds of automatic information sharing, as long as there are no AI in your group? In coop and ai-less PvP games. Still a problem in Warfare like games though, so then it needs to be up to the server admin if "new style commanding" (which gives access to the space bar menu command style, which actually should have this "scanning" capability, at least when you have AI troops) is allowed or not.

So this could actually have to be both a server side setting, as well as a mission side one. As mission (via command) it shouldn't be able to set a lower difficulty, only a higher one. Means that PvP and pure coops could be set to a higher difficulty (no spacebar command style), than the server who might as well host Warfare missions (where you'd get spacebar command style as long as you're commanding AIs).

[{bdr}*nemesi* 22]

I think the question is not correctly posed if you talk of cheat, it is not a cheat since it is a feature of the original game

It is unfair to the enemy (human enemy) being spotted when he is in good cover and not because you have information of his positiondue to your good situational awareness because its'nt like that, you never saw him and you have no information at all

Sharing information in PvP is mainly done by advanced TS comms, most like in real life

Of course we are talking about PvPs, and you should keep in count that there are several units very concerned on simulation, we are playing coop-style PvPs, this means simulation of real operations and I can assure the spacebar is an issue - we addressed the problem and we had a vote in ATC (our organization) and all units involved voted for removing the spacebar as most as we could

So I would higly appreciate if BIS can do something on that

[rübe 127]

i don't undestand this point:where is the relation with the space bar?

You have to understand that the spacebar-scanning doesn't scan "the world". You can not scan around and detect "new" things, things you (resp. your avatar) weren't aware of anyway.

Instead, spacebar-scanning queries your (avatars) knowledge. You're already supposed to have that information.

See, there is a difference between the ingame world (and everything in it) and your (or any units) knowledge of this world. If you just place a unit in the editor and start up, the knowlede of this unit will be zero: no knowledge of the world out there. Wait a little, look around, and the living things around you will be drawn on your map. This means, that you learned something about the world your avatar lives in. Your knowledge-pool just grew. Move away and you'll lose that knowledge, markers (your knowledge about certain things) are fading away on the map. Thus while the world is persistent, your avatars knowledge is not. It's fragile and incomplete and needs to be constantly "maintained".

The link you probably missed is this: spacebar-scanning does not offer you direct access to the "complete" world. All it does is query your knowledge pool. The knowledge that get's automatically drawn with markers on your map (easy settings). It is exactly the same information. Your avatars knowledge. "Scanning" your surroundings with the spacebar is equal to looking at the map. Sure, the map offers a better overview, while the spacebar-scanning offers somewhat better translation of this knowledge into the ingame 3d world. Yet it is the same. If you look at the map, you can see all your avatar's knowledge. If you scan around with your spacebar, you just query this knowledge without looking at all your knowledge.

Also the information about the distance is by no means cheating. Distance can be estimated. Your knowledge isn't accurate anyway. Thus the shown distance is accurate for things you know very well, while it's a lousy estimate for things you do not know that well. This is nothing like a range finder, it's the representation of your knowledge, your estimations.

This knowledge sharing is a crucial part of the game and affects a lot of other things like guard waypoints, pathfinding and much more (see Info Age).

as said yeah,is pretty much unrealistic and a bit lame

Well, you are wrong. It is highly realistic and BIS did a really great job at modeling this. If you do not agree, you have to think about it a bit harder. What you want is headless and uninformed units/players screwing around like they were autonomous Bruce Willis's dying the hard way by doing his own stupid thing. Sure, this might sound like fun to you, but don't tell me it's more realistic and much fairer and what else. It's not. We are playing war here and not rambo. We have a side-center (abstracted military upper echelon) and we communicate like military forces would do. We share our knowledge.

So maybe the solution is to be able to fully turn off all kinds of automatic information sharing, as long as there are no AI in your group?

Why? Even if you do not have AI in your group, you are still part of your side. Given a radio in your inventory you are still in contact with your sides center. You still share knowledge, report stuff and get instructions and so on... Taking this away doesn't make the game more realistic. In fact, it's the exact opposit. You degrade the players to dumb, uninstructed rambos. Sure, this might be what you need for some PvP missions. Yet most of these do infact model war and not "die hard".

Spacebar-scanning is only an interface. It's a small part to grant easier access to your avatars knowledge. Highly effective to command your units. But the underlying "knowledge pool" is still valuable (and realistic and fun) if you do not need to command any units at all. Even in most PvP games. Two sides, a clear objective... it's a military operation, thus this still should be modelled. I can only think of DM as a gamemode that shouldn't have this.

Just think about it. What are the effects of this knowledge?

case a), no shared knowledge, no representation of your avatars knowlege, rambo style: Since you don't know shit, you run around and then you die. Since the opponent does exactly the same thing, two opposing guys run around until they meet, then usually one of them dies. So maybe you can kill some opponents before you die. But in essence you're just running around like a mouse in its maze.

case b), we share knowledge, we have access to our avatars knowledge by means of map-markers and the spacebar scanning, military style: we move to our objectives and report any opponent activities to our side center. Information gets shared/distributed to all other units. We can adapt to the situation, start flanking maneuver, we may hide and wait for other players to arrive and help out before we attack.

This may be a bit exaggerated, but the effects of having or not having access to this information are pretty clear: take this away and you degrade this game to a run-and-gun game like any other basic tactical shooter out there. On the other hand, if we have access to this knowledge, the game gains another, strategic quality, much more sensible to military activities which are modeled in this game.

In conclusion, it is exactly this knowledge (including auto-markers and spacebar-scanning and so forth) that allows for a higher leveled, strategic (and slower paced) gameplay. Take it away and you're back to any tactical shooter there is. If you want that, fine. But I wonder why are you playing Arma (with it's said to be clumsy controls) then? If you wanna have a fast paced tactical shooter, there are probably better games out there.

I would even argue that this auto. information sharing (map markers and spacebar) implicitly encourages better teamwork. Players beeing better aware of the situation at hand can much better adapt to the situation, helping out where their help is needed. All they have to do is looking at the map, takeing note of the shared knowledge, to finally make an educated decision (aka teamwork).

If you can't look at the map, if you don't know where your teammates have spotted enemies and you have pretty much no clue of what is happening because no information is shared... well, then you do not adapt to the situation, you can't help where you are needed, you don't know shit so you move blindly to your objective and get shot, because nobody told you that there is an enemy ahead that has already shot like twelve little rambos moving along the same route you were coming, not aware of anything... headless chicken...

Edited May 3, 2010 by ruebe

[*LK1* 10]

What happens if someone spots an enemy? Does he jump right into action? Or would he rather inform his side about the enemy first? You know... just in case he's not gonna make it...

The current solution (easy settings assumed, including the map markers) is quite effective to model this process. If someone from your squad spots an enemy, this knowledge will be transfered to you by updating the entities on your map,

i don't undestand this point:where is the relation with the space bar?

no offence,it could be im not so smart to understand the link since it's 6.00 o'clock in my country :eek::eek: time to go bed.

You have to understand that the spacebar-scanning doesn't scan "the world". You can not scan around and detect "new" things, things you (resp. your avatar) weren't aware of anyway.

Instead, spacebar-scanning queries your (avatars) knowledge. You're already supposed to have that information.

See, there is a difference between the ingame world (and everything in it) and your (or any units) knowledge of this world. If you just place a unit in the editor and start up, the knowlede of this unit will be zero: no knowledge of the world out there.ecc.

i have understand what you mean but idont agree,since the space bar is made just to give orders at the AI is not linked at all with the exigence to share information.you could give order to AI even without the space bar

probably with another solution.

and the space bar is not sharing you unit that other players has already spotted,but only enemies that you have spotted...and this happens only for vet. and expert mode.

for regular mode ecc. you can even spot enemies undetected like a "scanning tool".there is a video showing it.

Also the information about the distance is by no means cheating. Distance can be estimated. Your knowledge isn't accurate anyway. Thus the shown distance is accurate for things you know very well, while it's a lousy estimate for things you do not know that well. This is nothing like a range finder, it's the representation of your knowledge, your estimations.

no wait,with the space bar you can clearly now the distance from you and the point you are observing,pretty much like laser range finder.is not an approximate estimation.you can try from yourself,point your scope at 10 m from you and then move forward the scope with the space bar activated..you will see the meters changing:10m,11m,12 ecc...pretty much a range finder.since they can simply add a tool for that, the LRF,and considering also that estimate distances without that tool is part of the skill required in a game like that,taht why i dont like the space bar function.

I would even argue that this auto. information sharing (map markers and spacebar) implicitly encourages better teamwork. Players beeing better aware of the situation at hand can much better adapt to the situation, helping out where their help is needed. All they have to do is looking at the map, takeing note of the shared knowledge, to finally make an educated decision (aka teamwork).

technically you are in truth,but pratically we can all see a lack of teamwork in most of the servers.

Edited May 3, 2010 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[MetalMike 10]

I really don't mind it. I don't ever use it unless I'm playing online, then it's easier to identify who's who in my group. Besides, the label doesn't show up as an enemy anyway until you've seen it/identified is as such. Until then it's just "Man". I think it's fine the way it is.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@ruebe: You're wrong on the range finding capability. Hold space and immediately see range to anything, including ground.

Anyways, in AI free games, we like to play as realistically as possible. That means having to rely on our own observations, reports, and memory. Not the avatars. Like any other aid we turn off, like extended map info or group icons, we want to get rid off this scan ability as well. And rely on manual reporting and observation. But we can't.

Lack of information doesn't create run&gun events. Too much information does. That kills immersion for those who try to play more serious, and there is basically no reason to be afraid anymore.

The ability to turn off reporting would be for human groups. If disabled we report (silently please) to center, but center only reports it back to AI groups. But I can't say I have seen much of this automatic info sharing between groups. If we attack group A, the hidden group B will remain completely ignorant about the fight around them until someone in the group spots us.

[rübe 127]

You're wrong on the range finding capability. Hold space and immediately see range to anything, including ground.

Ok. I assumed this was an estimate (depending on the observers skill-slider). But regarding spacbar-scannable enemies, you really won't get the actual distance to the enemy itself, but the distance to the assumed position (you scan the represented knowledge and not the actual world-entities), which is not accurate... and then I jumped to conclusions, bwahaha, sorry about that. :D

Anyway. Granted, I come from a singleplayer/public game background (though I played in a clan at ofp times), beeing way more interested in AI than "realistic" and player-only game modes.

That means having to rely on our own observations, reports, and memory. Not the avatars.

I think this pretty much summs up the clashing interests/point of views we have. I really like those bots. Arma without any AI squadmates wouldn't be the game I love so much. Beeing in command of a small team or a squad is so much more than just playing one little guy, shooting at stuff. It's like adding chess to a tactical shooter. Played this way, all these aids are a crucial part of the game.

Now what you guys do isn't more serious, more realistic or anything like that. It's not about recruit vs. expert, noob vs. pro. What you guys are doing is playing "another game". You basically remove/ignore a core element of the game (the AI; playing as squad leader (of bots)). For this game, these "AI-aids" apparently aren't welcome and occur to be "unrealistic" (while in the "game" I play, these exact same aids have the opposite effect).

So I guess the request is well justified, but the poll is hardly appropriate:

1) "BIS remove the space bar if you can." is clearly not an option and

2) "for expert mode the 2 functions of the space bar should be turned totally off." is questionable too. What has this to do with expert mode? Exactly nothing. In the end it probably really is all about the "game(mode)" you are playing. It depends on the game/mission, not on difficulty settings. Thus a script-command propably would be more appropriate (I doubt an automatic solution, depeding on whether you have AI or not, would work). It should be simply up to the mission designer I guess.

[*LK1* 10]

1) "BIS remove the space bar if you can." is clearly not an option and

2) "for expert mode the 2 functions of the space bar should be turned totally off." is questionable too. What has this to do with expert mode? Exactly nothing. In the end it probably really is all about the "game(mode)" you are playing. It depends on the game/mission, not on difficulty settings. Thus a script-command propably would be more appropriate (I doubt an automatic solution, depeding on whether you have AI or not, would work). It should be simply up to the mission designer I guess.

dude...there is a reason for the poll trust me :)

option 1 "BIS remove the space bar if you can" it gives at BIS the idea about the negative feeling of the comunity on the space bar simply.can be good to know it :)

option 2 ""for expert mode the 2 functions of the space bar should be turned totally off" means that people want more realism for the expert mode.since is the most difficult level we would the range find function of the space bar off.

1 of the skills required in these game is to establish distances.and since expert mode is for expert you shouldn't be helped by the space bar...

is pretty much the most justifiable option of the poll.if you have voted for the first option you can even be satisfied with the second because it gives you what you are searching at least for 1 difficulty level.

if you have voted for the third option well you like the space bar,but i guess it can't be a big problem if the lame bar is disactivated just for 1 difficulty level on 4....

75% of the voters is partially(and part of them completely)against the space bar..if i am the BIS i

would take in consideration this poll.but of course is not closed yet.

Edited May 4, 2010 by ***LeGeNDK1LLER***

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Ok. I assumed this was an estimate (depending on the observers skill-slider).

For estimates with human players, we give them a mildot scope and tell them to pickup their calculator. :)

But regarding spacbar-scannable enemies, you really won't get the actual distance to the enemy itself, but the distance to the assumed position

True, but a human enemy hiding in a bush, you can just spam reveal him, and you'll get an undated fix. The problem is you get to know what your avatar knows, yet you have never actually seen an enemy yourself. Information will be accurate enough to get the one in hiding with a few shots. He was in perfect concealment, but did it help him?

I think this pretty much summs up the clashing interests/point of views we have. I really like those bots. Arma without any AI squadmates wouldn't be the game I love so much. Beeing in command of a small team or a squad is so much more than just playing one little guy, shooting at stuff.

I can command a small group of units too, if they are human :) I suck at AI commanding, and I guess I'll never be able to enjoy that fully. The spacebar commanding lacks important features, and the number system is just way too confusing, demanding, and time consuming to get around. I've been around since OFP, but I've never been able to memorized most of those commands.

Now what you guys do isn't more serious, more realistic or anything like that. It's not about recruit vs. expert, noob vs. pro. What you guys are doing is playing "another game". You basically remove/ignore a core element of the game (the AI; playing as squad leader (of bots)).

We like to play together as a small team (we're a very small unit). We simply cannot have them around starting shooting while laying down and tag us in the process. For us, coop means humans vs AI.

@***LeGeNDK1LLER***: Oh I truly think they know already :) It's a fairly old problem. Note also the related issues.

[Master gamawa 0]

To be perfectly honest I didn't even know space bar did anything. I am not sure if it existed in Operation Flashpoint or Armed Assault.

I always use the number commands anyway.

My comment: If you don't like it, don't use it.

I never use 3rd person view. I consider it cheating blah blah blah and the choice is mine.

[*LK1* 10]

To be perfectly honest I didn't even know space bar did anything. I am not sure if it existed in Operation Flashpoint or Armed Assault.

I always use the number commands anyway.

there was even in arma and was worst,you couldn't disable it by changing

the difficulty level.