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Laqueesha

Terrorist attacks in Moscow, Russia.

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So let's remember the same "terrorism" conducted by Britain against Nothern Ireland, Spain against Basques, India against their separatists and so on.:mad:

When you take the Troubles in Northern Ireland, over a 30 year period about 3000 people were killed on all sides. In Chechnya, most sources place the figure over 200,000 for civilians alone, over a period half of that of NI. Don't you dare try and compare them in order to justify what Russia has done in Chechnya. Britain never even came close to levelling entire towns during 'the troubles', as Russia has done in Chechnya, nor used thermobaric weapons on dense urban areas.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing right about the terrorist attacks in Moscow - innocents never deserve to die, whatever race, nationality, religion, political view point or otherwise they are. However, Russia has killed alot of innocents, and this is of your own making; if you cannot accept that the deaths of 200k+ innocent Chechens might drive people to try and get some form of revenge, then you're too unreasonable to be worth discussing this with to begin with.

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What sort of tactics are these? Regardless of where the perpetrators originate from, regardless of their cause, it's a barbaric means of expressing their beliefs, however strong they may be of 'justified' they may be.

I personally don't agree with it, is it Jihad of some sort or truly only because their region is occupied? Now only more of their own will suffer as the Russians have a record of retaliation for such attacks.

If one of the victims were one of my family, even one of my friends you bet everything you have that I'd have plenty of emotion and adrenaline backing an assault.

RIP to those who lost their lives, going about their daily routines. I only hope they did not suffer.

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I HOPE Russia destroys these radical muslim dogs like never before! Send them and their bronze age beliefs to hell!!

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I HOPE Russia destroys these radical muslim dogs like never before! Send them and their bronze age beliefs to hell!!

I'd like to believe this was intentional irony, but I'm not so sure. Either way I laughed :)

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I'd like to believe this was intentional irony, but I'm not so sure. Either way I laughed.

Same.

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And you think that they're doing the exact same thing as Russia is? Some of them may be, but ca. 100000 civilian deaths and disappearances in Chechnya since 1994 frankly makes all Chechen responses on Russian soil very insignificant. Unless you think that the life of a Russian citizen is over 100x more valuable than that of a Chechen, or that it's less cowardly to slaughter a whole village with artillery and airplane bombs than taking your own life to do a fraction of that damage.

I don't think that Russian citizen is more valiable that Chechen, but also I don't think that writing about 100000-200000 dead Chechens sounds like truth. If there were such amount of victims, in early 2000s there would no such large increasing of the population in Chechnya. So please don't joke in such way, because even 100K of dead is the begining of such small nation's extinction.

When you take the Troubles in Northern Ireland, over a 30 year period about 3000 people were killed on all sides. In Chechnya, most sources place the figure over 200,000 for civilians alone, over a period half of that of NI. Don't you dare try and compare them in order to justify what Russia has done in Chechnya. Britain never even came close to levelling entire towns during 'the troubles', as Russia has done in Chechnya, nor used thermobaric weapons on dense urban areas.

Thank God that Irish hadn't ATGMs, heavy MGs, tanks, IFVs, various artillery pieces including "Grad" systems and over 100 L-39 armed jets.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing right about the terrorist attacks in Moscow - innocents never deserve to die, whatever race, nationality, religion, political view point or otherwise they are. However, Russia has killed alot of innocents, and this is of your own making; if you cannot accept that the deaths of 200k+ innocent Chechens might drive people to try and get some form of revenge, then you're too unreasonable to be worth discussing this with to begin with.

I bet you don't know anything about ethnical cleancings of all non-Chechen population in 1992-1994 years. And you don't know about how many Russian, Ukrainian and Armenian people were murdered, raped, slaved and forced to get out of Chechnya without anything (just clothes they had and documents).:mad: There was one famous billboard at the Grozny: "Russians, don't go! We strongly need slaves and prostitutes!". So, what revenge are you speaking about? Revenge of those who joined mad Chechen nationalists?:rolleyes:

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^^

here we go.

Finnish-Russian Love Thread.

Hang on.. why do you drag us in this?

Sad thing that happened at our neighbor.

I hope they can prevent the next ones.

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I don't think that Russian citizen is more valiable that Chechen, but also I don't think that writing about 100000-200000 dead Chechens sounds like truth. If there were such amount of victims, in early 2000s there would no such large increasing of the population in Chechnya. So please don't joke in such way, because even 100K of dead is the begining of such small nation's extinction.

I found this article about Russia trying to cover its tracks quite blatantly with the population census:

http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=159437&apc_state=henicrs2002

I wouldn't trust Russian authorities or media if I were you, they're all a tool for the government to control what you know, what you don't know and what you think you know.

I bet you don't know anything about ethnical cleancings of all non-Chechen population in 1992-1994 years. And you don't know about how many Russian, Ukrainian and Armenian people were murdered, raped, slaved and forced to get out of Chechnya without anything (just clothes they had and documents).:mad: There was one famous billboard at the Grozny: "Russians, don't go! We strongly need slaves and prostitutes!". So, what revenge are you speaking about? Revenge of those who joined mad Chechen nationalists?:rolleyes:

Would you be so kind as to provide sources for those cleansings? How many died there? Even so I doubt it was worse than the mass deportation/genocide, russification and the Chechnyan wars, and I quite frankly understand why they would hate Russians so much. You might find the history of Chechnya an interesting read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chechnya

It's pretty clear that they never wanted to be a part of Russia.

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I found this article about Russia trying to cover its tracks quite blatantly with the population census:

http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=159437&apc_state=henicrs2002

I wouldn't trust Russian authorities or media if I were you, they're all a tool for the government to control what you know, what you don't know and what you think you know.

I trust the people who took part in the war. One of them is my friend, another is relative.

According to the link you provided...

Since then, human rights activists calculate that up to 100,000 Chechens have died in fighting

Who forced them to take part in this war? Nobody. They thought they can establish nationalist state and do whatever they want. But they were defeated.

In 1989 the population of Chechens was 734,500 (link in russian). Now it is 1 031,600. Don't you think it's possible to raise the population after such heavy losses in 1995-1996 years?

Would you be so kind as to provide sources for those cleansings?

Here it is (also in russian, but it's not hard to translate it).

It's pretty clear that they never wanted to be a part of Russia.

Emperor's government had to make Chechnya the part of Russia because it was the stronghold of all the bandits that were on the Caucasus. From there they conducted armed raids.

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So you cannot accept that there may be alot of Chechens who've had thier families killed by Russian action, and might want to take revenge? As I said, if you can't accept that possibility, you're wholy unreasonable and unworthy of wasting time in discussion with. Go on believing that it's all the fault of the Chechens, and the Russians are all completely pure and innocent. You are totally blind.

Edited by Pathy

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So you cannot accept that there may be alot of Chechens who've had thier families killed by Russian action

And what did you expect? Of course there could be innocents killed during that war, but no army can guarantee that only ones, who have evil motives in their minds, will be killed. Take a look at how many innocent iraqies and aghanies were killed since your troops entered these countries. It's not fair, but none of any wars is, and your troops aren't God's messengers, amigo. However, that doesn't justify what they (terrorists) did in New York, London and Madrid.

And, we, russians, understand that well - chechens, iraqies, afghanies - all ot them get their dirty money from the same sources. It's obvious, that this is just another head of that terroristic hydra (their sponsors even sent some arabic "supervisors" to command the ranks of chechens). And thus, when you try to justify moral right of chechen terrorists to commit their possible acts of terror (that you call "revenge") in Moscow, you automatically justify the moral right of other terrorists (whatever nationality they are) to commit such crimes in your country (you're a british, right?). Anyway, pal, if you can't see what I'm talking about, you're wholy unreasonable and unworthy of wasting time in discussion with.

On the other hand - could you please just present your condolences to the victims or simply say nothing, instead of acting like all-knowing and infallible homebred cynics?

@Spooky Lynx

Don't cast your pearls before swines, mate. It's a thankless task. ;)

Edited by NSX

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So you cannot accept that there may be alot of Chechens who've had thier families killed by Russian action, and might want to take revenge? As I said, if you can't accept that possibility, you're wholy unreasonable and unworthy of wasting time in discussion with. Go on believing that it's all the fault of the Chechens, and the Russians are all completely pure and innocent. You are totally blind.

I know that there were a lot of innocent people who died during that two wars - both chechens, russians, ukrainians, armenians and other nations. But I don't accept the way of revenge. Moreover, not the Russia started the 1992-1994 genocide of all non-chechen people who lived there. If you suppose that only chechens have the reasons for revenge, you are totally wrong. All russian people who lost their property, who lost their relatives because of armed chechen nationalists in 1992-1994, have their own serious reasons for the revenge. Does it mean that somebody among that russian refugees should become suicide bomber and blow himself at the crowded place in Grozny?

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Because those countries don't think that struggle against armed separatism is act of terrorism.

Quotation marks are used when you directly quoting a source; drawing emphasis to a word, which you were doing, means you use italics.

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Quotation marks are used when you directly quoting a source

In Russian language quotations marks are sometimes used to show that this word actually means something completely opposite. :)

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Who forced them to take part in this war? Nobody. They thought they can establish nationalist state and do whatever they want. But they were defeated.

They wanted a nationalist state? Those bastards. How dare they try to do what Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine and Belarus were allowed to do. Because of all the territories that seceded or sought to secede, Russia's claim on Chechnya is the weakest. It fought the longest and the hardest against colonial conquest, and never courted Russian support against other enemies. There was never any ethnic, cultural or religious similarity to Russia.

Emperor's government had to make Chechnya the part of Russia because it was the stronghold of all the bandits that were on the Caucasus. From there they conducted armed raids.

Russians didn't live in the Caucasus, it was a site of imperial aggression and colonial expansion. So it's somewhat ridiculous to make it look like self-defense against bandits, because they were raiding your own advancing Cossack colonists. Makes a good false analogy with the terrorism situation. Generations of full scale war to stop small-scale raids.

Pretty much every other country that gained and lost an empire has admitted that colonialism and treating native populations like chattel is a... bad thing. Only Russia seems to keep making the same 19th century arguments over why they deserve dominion over the lesser violent, uncivilized people of the globe.

is it Jihad of some sort or truly only because their region is occupied?
If I'm not mistaken, there isn't any significant Chechen secessionist movement left, terrorist or otherwise. They were bombed out of existence or cowed by the reign of terror being carried out by the Chechen president at the moment.

What remains are Islamic fundamentalists who are looking to blow up any Christian Westerners they can find, regardless of politics. Although politics do matter because you don't see car bombs going off in Georgia. It's jihadi terrorism mixed with Caucasian banditry and Caucasian revenge. Exacerbating it all is the horrendous human rights abuses that are being systematically carried out in Chechnya. The crackdown has the population scared more badly than they were of Stalin, but it's probably making things worse in terms of terrorist attacks. If you want to pacify mountaineers, you have to burn their villages like Ermolov or Yeltsin.

Meanwhile, Russia has taken a terrible hammering. I think the death tolls are approaching 9/11 (Just like 9/11 for Bush, the apartment bombings made Putin's career), and with the repeated attacks, they must be at least as traumatic. Fate needs to cut the Russians some sort of break.

Edited by maturin

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They wanted a nationalist state? Those bastards. How dare they try to do what Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine and Belarus were allowed to do. Because of all the territories that seceded or sought to secede, Russia's claim on Chechnya is the weakest. It fought the longest and the hardest against colonial conquest, and never courted Russian support against other enemies. There was never any ethnic, cultural or religious similarity to Russia.

Nobody forced other nationalities to get out of the Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan (mostly), Ukraine and Belarus. But if you were russian, there would be no place for you in Dudayev's state. You had either to get out, leaving your house to chechens or to be murdered by nationalist gangs.

Russians didn't live in the Caucasus, it was a site of imperial aggression and colonial expansion.

But we lived at Kuban river valley. And bandits conducted raids at the villages situated on Terek river (this land hadn't been belonged to chechens).

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Nobody forced other nationalities to get out of the Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan (mostly), Ukraine and Belarus. But if you were russian, there would be no place for you in Dudayev's state. You had either to get out, leaving your house to chechens or to be murdered by nationalist gangs.

That started to happen after Russia sent troops to Grozny. It wasn't "we want our state, all Russians get out" any more than the Abkhaz, Ossetians and Armenians suddenly decided to expel their minority (or in the former case, majority) populations.

But we lived at Kuban river valley. And bandits conducted raids at the villages situated on Terek river (this land hadn't been belonged to chechens).

Russia had faced raids for centuries, from just about every cultural group in Eurasia. Your ruling dynasty were Norse... professional raiders!

Pacifying the border to prevent banditry, which the Caucasus is still famous for, was incidental. Imperial expansion was the thing.

I am admittedly not familiar with recent Chechen history or the roots of the conflict (that aren't shared by the South Caucasus wars, at least). But the war was a little bit of 1942 in 1994, and nothing justifies that.

Edited by maturin

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That started to happen after Russia sent troops to Grozny. It wasn't "we want our state, all Russians get out" any more than the Abkhaz, Ossetians and Armenians suddenly decided to expel their minority (or in the former case, majority) populations.

That situation started at late 1992. Army entered Chechnya in december of 1994. So for about two years before war started chechen nationalists lead by Dudayev forced slavic population of Chechnya to move out.

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And what did you expect? Of course there could be innocents killed during that war, but no army can guarantee that only ones, who have evil motives in their minds, will be killed. Take a look at how many innocent iraqies and aghanies were killed since your troops entered these countries. It's not fair, but none of any wars is, and your troops aren't God's messengers, amigo.

Please, point out where i've said that they are, because it's news to me. Or are you just trying to put words in my mouth?

However, that doesn't justify what they (terrorists) did in New York, London and Madrid.

Nor Moscow, as I said earlier:

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing right about the terrorist attacks in Moscow - innocents never deserve to die, whatever race, nationality, religion, political view point or otherwise they are.

On the other hand, I think the way G.W Bush conducted the 'war on terror' and the way we (The Brits) followed left alot to be desired, and we should not be suprised when they attempt revenge. Same principle applies here.

And, we, russians, understand that well - chechens, iraqies, afghanies - all ot them get their dirty money from the same sources. It's obvious, that this is just another head of that terroristic hydra (their sponsors even sent some arabic "supervisors" to command the ranks of chechens). And thus, when you try to justify moral right of chechen terrorists to commit their possible acts of terror (that you call "revenge") in Moscow, you automatically justify the moral right of other terrorists (whatever nationality they are) to commit such crimes in your country (you're a british, right?).

I haven't attempted to 'justify' anything, let alone revenge; I've already stated that killing innocents, no matter what circumstance, is wrong. It should not happen. What I have said is that if you go around killing thousands of Civilians, you shouldn't be too suprised when some of the families of those Civilians get pissed off enough to blow themselves up. It is the exact same thing we did in Iraq and to some extent Afghanistan - drove new recruits into the arms of terrorist organisations.

It doesn't make it right, but you've got guys in this thread saying "we should kill the families of these chechen terrorists!" - and none of you Russians seem to argue with this, infact this arguments stems from Spooky Lynx backing up the guy who said that. Do you think thats a solution, after all you've seen and all you know? Kill the families? Don't you think thats the reason why they're blowing up your countrymen in the first place? And you want to kill more!?

On the other hand - could you please just present your condolences to the victims or simply say nothing, instead of acting like all-knowing and infallible homebred cynics?

My condolences to the victims. Violence against innocents is never right.

It's a shame you do not seem to appreciate the value of trying to understand the motives of these terrorists, and tackling these motives, rather than just heaping on more violence and entrenching things even further.

Edited by Pathy

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That situation started at late 1992. Army entered Chechnya in december of 1994. So for about two years before war started chechen nationalists lead by Dudayev forced slavic population of Chechnya to move out.

Years before the full-scale war, but not before Russian troops moved into Grozny in response to the declaration of independence in 1991. So Dudayev's actions were not spontaneous. I don't want to be stuck justifying ethnic cleansing, but it appears Russia denied Grozny independence before the expulsions started, not because of them as you suggested.

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No Russian troops moved in Grozny after 1991. All weapons of training center located near the Grozny and tank regiment located in Shali was left there, and all the soldiers were demobilised or just left their barracks. BTW, this so-called declaration of independence of Dudayev was proclaimed after Supreme Council of Chechen republic (that was the main regional authority center) had been dispersed by armed Dudayev's people. They even used 2S3 "Akaciya" self-propellered howitzer, which was stolen from army warehouse, to shoot at the building of Council.

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Please, point out where i've said that they are, because it's news to me. Or are you just trying to put words in my mouth?

Nor Moscow, as I said earlier:

On the other hand, I think the way G.W Bush conducted the 'war on terror' and the way we (The Brits) followed left alot to be desired, and we should not be suprised when they attempt revenge. Same principle applies here.

I haven't attempted to 'justify' anything, let alone revenge; I've already stated that killing innocents, no matter what circumstance, is wrong. It should not happen. What I have said is that if you go around killing thousands of Civilians, you shouldn't be too suprised when some of the families of those Civilians get pissed off enough to blow themselves up. It is the exact same thing we did in Iraq and to some extent Afghanistan - drove new recruits into the arms of terrorist organisations.

It doesn't make it right, but you've got guys in this thread saying "we should kill the families of these chechen terrorists!" - and none of you Russians seem to argue with this, infact this arguments stems from Spooky Lynx backing up the guy who said that. Do you think thats a solution, after all you've seen and all you know? Kill the families? Don't you think thats the reason why they're blowing up your countrymen in the first place? And you want to kill more!?

My condolences to the victims. Violence against innocents is never right.

It's a shame you do not seem to appreciate the value of trying to understand the motives of these terrorists, and tackling these motives, rather than just heaping on more violence and entrenching things even further.

Very well said, and quite possibly the best post I have ever read on this forum.

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Great then we are all in agreement that violence in those troubled regions (Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan) will only generate more violence.

How about everybody move out of those places now please ? Oh and no meddling, direct or indirect........

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No Russian troops moved in Grozny after 1991. All weapons of training center located near the Grozny and tank regiment located in Shali was left there, and all the soldiers were demobilised or just left their barracks. BTW, this so-called declaration of independence of Dudayev was proclaimed after Supreme Council of Chechen republic (that was the main regional authority center) had been dispersed by armed Dudayev's people. They even used 2S3 "Akaciya" self-propellered howitzer, which was stolen from army warehouse, to shoot at the building of Council.

I'm not putting all the blame for the war on the Russians, just their prosecution of it. Nationalists are frequently monsters.

What does it matter that Dudayev shot at the Supreme Soviet? That's what happens when rule is imposed. The Chechens couldn't go to school in their own language. Stalin shipped them to Siberia where they died in droves. When they came back the Russians were still a threat, and hostile conquerors. Ethnic cleansing in revenge.

Compare that to Georgia or the other Republics, which had native Communist regimes. The Georgians didn't have to shoot at their Soviet because the Soviet was full of Georgians, and it went along with independence. Their native language had official status.

That's the difference between a Soviet Republic and a former military colony under semi-lockdown. The war was a result of Russian misrule dating back almost two centuries, not just Dudayev's savagery.

And it wasn't banditry on the Volga that started it all.

Great then we are all in agreement that violence in those troubled regions (Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan) will only generate more violence

As always, the regimes there are the sticking point. Chechnya is ruled by a Chechen.

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I'm not putting all the blame for the war on the Russians, just their prosecution of it. Nationalists are frequently monsters.

What does it matter that Dudayev shot at the Supreme Soviet? That's what happens when rule is imposed.

It matters that his so-called proclamation of independence was nothing but armed mutiny against legitimate authority. It is a crime. In all countries.

Well, now there is one more important thing that history of first chechen war. Those who organized this massacre, must be punished. Seriously punished.

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