Kinda newbie-like question re visibility

[Lal 10]

I think the main problem with grass(from players end) is the players view point is too low. You can lay in grass thats not really high and yet you cant see anything, then if you look from 3rd person view you can see that your actually higher than the grass :p

Yeah I kinda agree with this. It always seemed weird to me how you almost look down into the ground whilst prone.

[Bulldogs 10]

As someone said earlier, it'd be good if you could raise your head while prone to see over the grass.

I've been in some pretty heavy grass areas, and people seem to forget how high grass can grow without maintenance, heck, I've had areas where you can crouch in grass without being spotable, but there's always options that aren't fully available through game and as such you need compensation. We have the hold breath, And for grass we have the 3rd person view, but it just feels like there should be a better option

[HyperU2 11]

I love seeing the grass but generally when playing it's more a nuisance. When I do play with it turned on, I generally just base my tactics around staying no lower than kneeling. Use other terrain features for cover, and if they're not around, alter my approach accordingly.

[maturin 12]

Turning the grass off is cheating, in my book. War isn't fought on golf courses, and if it gives the AI an advantage, then they certainly deserve it, given all of yours.

[jw custom 56]

As someone said earlier, it'd be good if you could raise your head while prone to see over the grass.

I've been in some pretty heavy grass areas, and people seem to forget how high grass can grow without maintenance, heck, I've had areas where you can crouch in grass without being spotable, but there's always options that aren't fully available through game and as such you need compensation. We have the hold breath, And for grass we have the 3rd person view, but it just feels like there should be a better option

Not just a function to raise your head it should be elevated a lot more by default, as it is now it's like your pressing your head into ground. Maybe a function to raise your head in the higher grass.

[ladlon 10]

Man, I often seem to cause trouble when posting.... :p

Ya, from my point of view, the grass is 'good'... realistic, bothersome (in a good way). As I mentioned, it WOULD be great to be able to lift your head up, even just to peek up. I have a TrackIR as well, and it would be great if you could actually move your head (lift) using that too.

The whole 'does grass block the AI's view' debate baffles me.... Doesn't anyone know 'for sure'? Has the developer not stated something one way or another, or hasn't anyone viewed the code itself?

I'm 'curious' about it, but certainly don't want to cause eyes to roll to the ceiling by mentioning it (as it appears the subject has been discussed to death).

My original post was more in the vain of 'Wow, this is realistically hard! As would be expected from a non-military player, I'm not completely kicking AI butt here. I'm doing relatively okay, but am aware that I'm not doing things 'by the book' and efficiently/properly. For example, having a hell of a time spotting enemies, especially when prone!'.... So, it was more of a 'I'm curious how you guys do it', than a 'This game is stupid' kind of deal.

So far, my sessions are more like 'I'm one team, my squadmates are another'.... as I'm really not utilizing formations, team tactics, etc. As well, since I'm spending a lot of time wrestling with the controls (in one form or another), my participation is not 'equal' to that of my squad.... Not necessarily that I'm doing nothing... but I'm doing DIFFERENT stuff than them. They obviously are doing correct stuff (unless I interfere), and I'm.... well.... doing my own world thing.

Most of the blame simply goes to my not knowing the proper tactics, although part of it DOES rest on the wonky controls (commands, not movement and stuff)... as well as the limitations of the sim (situations it didn't consider, bugs, etc).

I keep going in, wanting to experience the 'by the book' team-based warfare... but sadly, it usually ends up as 'my two teams'... with them saving my butt most of the time (as far as clearing hostiles), while I'm looking around, trying to spot the enemy that the squadmates are already battling with for a while!... or cursing while I try and exit the menu that has gone balistic on me. :rolleyes:

I seem to only dictate where we are walking to, and healing guys. Granted, I've had several kills.... and when doing stuff like a 'Destroy important target' Secom mission, I'm the only one to actually try destroying the thing (as there doesn't appear to be a way to get the other guys to attack them... only to move to them!). Actually, that brings up another question... of how am I supposed to destroy these targets??? I tried grenades, which didn't really work. Usually, I just call in an Apache (which I've set up in my random missions with the radio feature)... but again, it's THEM doing stuff, and not me. I need them to airdrop a rocket launcher or something!

I'm still playing vanilla Arma2. Figured I should figure out things first before going hardcore with ACE2, etc.

Edited March 19, 2010 by ladlon

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Turning the grass off is cheating, in my book. War isn't fought on golf courses, and if it gives the AI an advantage, then they certainly deserve it, given all of yours.

Well said, and I couldn't agree more. Yes I agree that grass can create an unfair advantage, but we as humans should be able to outthink the AI to overcome that obstacle. Seek higher ground, reposition, think like a human - something the AI will never be able to. Reduce their skill and/or accuracy to compensate if it's still too much of a problem.

When things get close, AI hide extremely well nearby, by laying down in the grass. Add shadows and they're practically invisible. Remove grass, and add players who don't use shadows to strengthen their advantage - well... Immersion out the window for me.

But turning it off? Never. Grass is a highly realistic obstacle and gives us something we need - fighting an invisible enemy (even if the cause is slightly off). Never are things as perfect as what is portrayed ingame; perfect scopes, perfect vision, little dust or smoke, concealment that doesn't work at all or AI not being able to exploit it etc. Not to mention how no grass pose no consideration to choice of avenue of approach. With grass on, you have to think twice - it becomes a tactical element - which is a good thing if you ask me. That being said, I don't think I have ever played a game where sun or moon position actually made a point in the planning phase (where to attack from, pluss or minus regarding grass obstacles i.e.) :)

When we end up in trouble due to bad choices regarding grass (and we do, like, constantly :)), I like to try to solve that problem with tactics to counter its bad effects.

My only complaint about grass, is in its uniformity. On Chernarus, there should have been more patches of Utes like grass. Although low grass exists, rarely do you actually find places where you can plan to use it.

[Nielsneo 10]

Man, I often seem to cause trouble when posting.... :p

My original post was more in the vain of 'Wow, this is realistically hard! As would be expected from a non-military player, I'm not completely kicking AI butt here. I'm doing relatively okay, but am aware that I'm not doing things 'by the book' and efficiently/properly. For example, having a hell of a time spotting enemies, especially when prone!'.... So, it was more of a 'I'm curious how you guys do it', than a 'This game is stupid' kind of deal.

So far, my sessions are more like 'I'm one team, my squadmates are another'.... as I'm really not utilizing formations, team tactics, etc. As well, since I'm spending a lot of time wrestling with the controls (in one form or another), my participation is not 'equal' to that of my squad.... Not necessarily that I'm doing nothing... but I'm doing DIFFERENT stuff than them. They obviously are doing correct stuff (unless I interfere), and I'm.... well.... doing my own world thing.

Most of the blame simply goes to my not knowing the proper tactics, although part of it DOES rest on the wonky controls (commands, not movement and stuff)... as well as the limitations of the sim (situations it didn't consider, bugs, etc).

I keep going in, wanting to experience the 'by the book' team-based warfare... but sadly, it usually ends up as 'my two teams'... with them saving my butt most of the time (as far as clearing hostiles), while I'm looking around, trying to spot the enemy that the squadmates are already battling with for a while!... or cursing while I try and exit the menu that has gone balistic on me. :rolleyes:

I seem to only dictate where we are walking to, and healing guys. Granted, I've had several kills.... and when doing stuff like a 'Destroy important target' Secom mission, I'm the only one to actually try destroying the thing (as there doesn't appear to be a way to get the other guys to attack them... only to move to them!). Actually, that brings up another question... of how am I supposed to destroy these targets??? I tried grenades, which didn't really work. Usually, I just call in an Apache (which I've set up in my random missions with the radio feature)... but again, it's THEM doing stuff, and not me. I need them to airdrop a rocket launcher or something!

As a squad leader you direct your men. That is your job. You use your men to spot enemies and then assign targets for them (altough they're usually very capable of choosing tagets themselves), call in airsupport to take out armor or direct airstrikes for entrenched enemies. That's what this game is about and that's why it's so great.

I'm sorry but it sounds to me like you are used to COD type games in where you have to do everything against entire armies(apologies if this is not the case.). ArmA2 is nothing like that and should not be played like that. You don't have to do things "by the book" but you have to use some form of squad tactics be they basic to play this game. Do not only lead your men, but use them as well. The satisfaction in this game comes from using your assets to complete the missions with minimal casulties.

On a side note the AI can be frustrating sometimes(it's the downside of unscripted AI) and the user interface can be clumsy and in the way occasionally but the positives outweigh the negatives by a landslide.

I hope you keep playing and have fun with the game. The many addons enrich the game further so check them out once you're tired of vanilla ArmA2.

[Vick 19]

As I mentioned, it WOULD be great to be able to lift your head up, even just to peek up. I have a TrackIR as well, and it would be great if you could actually move your head (lift) using that too.

read somewhere they were looking into that, would be awesome to peek over cover and such

[maturin 12]

Has anyone tried aiming at the sky and then free-looking? It would be awkward, but when the AI does it their torso rises about a foot off the ground. Any higher and you would be kneeling, so maybe the grass is just too high.

[ladlon 10]

@Nielsneo: Actually, I don't own a single copy of COD or GRAW, etc. Arma2 is my first plunge into semi-realistic/realistic combat sim... aside from the old Rainbow6 Raven Shield and STALKER. Granted, I have been a Battlefield 2 player for quite some time (single player against bots)... but not one of those bunny hopping types of players. (...and I respect that you acknowledge that this may be the case, so I'm not bashing you here... just stating things 'for the record')

I bought Arma2 to actually get the more realistic, command a squad, etc type of experience. I love the stealth, the waiting, the tension, the 'one shot' reality... This is exactly why I got it. I'm neither surprised nor upset that Arma2 is realistic and different from the arcade type war games... quite the opposite.

A similar thing happened to me with combat flight sims. I've been playing 'lite' sims like Lomac, and still wanted something more detailed. I'm not one of those guys who just wants to jump to the dogfight... but instead, I really enjoy the 'power up and taxi' experience too. So, I ended up modding my copy of Falcon4 (...ya, I still have the huge manual binder and everything!) with OpenFalcon (or whatever that one excellent hardcore mod is called)... and that delivered! Powering up is half the game!

So, that was great... but the problem I had was one of those 'be careful of what you ask for' type of things! I WANTED the complex, full powerup (for example), but now that I had it, I was overwhelmed by it (...afterall, it IS hard to learn how to power up a real F-16). So, again, it wasn't a situation of me saying 'This sim sucks' or 'Why is this so complicated now?!'.... but me being glad of the complexity/realism, but simply acknowledging that I'm currently not well versed and relatively unskilled at the task at hand.

In the case of Arma2... it's partially because I'm not familiar (fully) with procedure (... I still completely ignore formation and ordering a stance and 'rule of engagement' to my mates... partially because it's proper use is still a bit new to me, and because I'm often too busy dealing with other things).... and partially because the interface fights me (and part of THAT is STILL unfamiliarity with some of the menu sections that I don't use as often, along with the already stated 'awkwardness' of many aspects of the menu system). Quite honestly, I think I would do a lot better playing with a real human, using voice commands, as opposed to menu commands for bots... a lot of the current difficulty is the interface as well as just the understanding of how to get things to do what I want (translating my wants into menu commands)...whereas with a human, I could communicate it much easier and intuitively.... not just because it's easier to say it, but because there's more flexibility in how to 'say' it, wider vocabulary, etc. (Example: I hate how when I select the command menu (Backspace key) the mates I selected get unselected... Half the time, I select a guy, activate the command menu, only to remember that it unselects everyone for some reason, so the command I want is now grey, then select the guy again, THEN the command. Just that sort of clumsy situation with the dynamic nature of the menu items that helps create a sense of not being fully in control or 'not getting it'...).

So, ya, I'm in no way wanting to quit Arma2... Quite the opposite. I'm in the process of learning each detail, one at a time, to increase the quality of the experience. I'm definitely not 'running and gunning' or taking on the enemy by myself (...quite the opposite there, too!... My mates usually take care of the enemy before I even spot them!... Although, last night, I made a few more kills... but unfortunately spent the majority of the session giving first aid to my mates, who kept getting injured, one right after the other! I couldn't get any shots in! :rolleyes:

BTW, ya, I'd LOVE to do things like call in support, etc... (doing recon and calling in a strike is one of my favorite elements!) but I'm playing out of the Editor.. with a single 4 man team, the Secop, First Aid and Ambient Combat modules.... and an Apache and Huey set up to be called in to join us via the radio. I don't have access to any of the support (ammo, medical, etc)... So, that's a shame. I'm unclear on how to set up the artillery mod (...it's explained, just not as easy to understand as the other modules). The Apache I set up can be used to do a sort of air strike (becomes a member of my team temporarily, and I (usually?!) can order it to attack SOME things). The Huey is more for troop targets,and giving us a lift to farther locations (...or getting us out when things are rough). So, I'm currently also only experiencing a small part of the Arma2 world.

Edited March 20, 2010 by ladlon

[SWAT_BigBear 0]

I've seen push up animation in many video's. I wonder if that lift would be enough for peeking over the top of grass?

I also enjoy grass/weeds at full view.

[SeaVee 10]

Most of the blame simply goes to my not knowing the proper tactics, although part of it DOES rest on the wonky controls (commands, not movement and stuff)....

Take a look at the VAC (Voice Activated Commands) thread. I just got it set up and it makes controlling the squad ALOT easier.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=96773

[Nielsneo 10]

@ladlon: again my apologies for putting you in the COD box. I got from your post that one of your frustrations was the fact that you coud'nt kill or destroy everything yourself but i guess i misunderstood.

I'm glad you like the game and are eager to learn it. Having played OFP for 8 years myself the commands are embedded in my brain so i tend to forget that 9 years ago i had trouble learning the menu system.

If you liked battlefield and are interested in PVP Project Reality is coming to ArmA2. Me i'm more of a single and coop player.

As for the menu it's better to learn the number commands than use backspace. Once you select a soldier the quickmenu has a couple of basic commands that change depending on what you point at so a move command turns in to a attack command when you put your crosshairs on an enemy.

Hope that helps. Good luck.:cool:

[ladlon 10]

No sweat, Nielsneo... I didn't take it badly, as you acknowledged that you weren't sure if what you were saying was the case or not. It's all good...

Frustrated?... Ya, I suppose... But not in the 'I wish I could become Rambo, and manage to destroy all the enemies' type of way... It's not so much about making many kills... Just feeling a sense of control and feeling like I'm doing things correctly.

It's kind of like activating manual shifting in a racing sim... That little reality adds SO much to the experience (...that's a literal example... I used to always play with auto shifting, thinking manual shifting was just something to complicate my driving... but instead, I found it really added... plus made it not only challenging and more interesting, but actually gave me more control!). In the case or Arma2, though... I kind of feel like I can't quite get the clutch to work, so I'm kind of putting along in first gear, wishing I could join in with the pack that is whipping by me at 120mph! Just needing to get a grip on the controls, and understand the tactics, etc.

I'm entirely a single player type... I can count on my hand the number of multiplayer sessions I've had in my life (on any game). Not that I'm against it, but usually you either get slaughtered (or are a burden to) the hardcore players (whatever the game may be), or are frustrated by the moron mentality. I'm a big fan of bots (and staying offline in general)... although I fully acknowledge the fun of playing along with other people. I think the last thing I've ever tried to play multiplayer (LAN) was Ravenshield and Battlefield2.... Previous to that... wow.... It's like Age Of Empires 1.... and Duke Nukem! Ya... You could definitely say that I'm not much on the multiplayer thing!

Ya, I had started using the number keys a while back, which really helped. I just promptly forgot them (... haven't played in quite a while until recently). I only really remembered a few of them when I was using them anyway. I need to make a reference card.

I might start playing some of the scenarios again. I stopped after about 3 of them, as I was getting slaughtered in one (the first night one), and I think the same thing happened with the 4th(?) one too.

Playing those (rather than just running the Editor with the Secom module) will certainly open up some of the many features not available via the Secom module missions.

I haven't installed any of the new maps or missions either.... So, I think I'm just scratching the surface of Arma2 as it is.

A Co-op LAN session would be amazing, though... Nobody here though, even if I had a second copy of Arma2 installed on another machine. I remember watching these great videos of these two British(?) or Australian(?) guys going through missions as a 2 man team. The chatter was hilarious.

I suppose that's one thing I'm missing (since the sim can't really generate that), is the solid feeling of communication and direction/ordering... Telling your buddy, "I think I see someone over to our left, up by that barn. You sneak over to the south side of that car while I keep an eye on him...', as opposed to struggling with 'Space bar, scroll down to this command, oops, I missed, okay, backspace up to the previous menu, argh... Why can't I....? Argh!!!!'. Plus, of course, you don't have all the wonderful chatter, arguments and panic dialogue either.

Hopefully, once I really get an understanding of the use of formations, 'postures' (stealthy, aggressive, etc) and truly commanding (properly) my guys, it'll be just like switching the shifting to manual on the racing sims... so much more engaging, challenging and in-depth.

@SeaVee: Never heard of that. That sounds cool. I'll look into that. Thanks!

[NoRailgunner 0]

Did you try the mission wizard to create some simple missions?

You can find it in SP - My missions. There you get some templates to toy around. Btw on which difficult setting are you playing?

Keep on with training - you must spoil before you spin. :)

[ladlon 10]

@NoRailgunner: WOW!!!!!!! Well, that's a pleasant surprise! I didn't know about those missions! CRAZY!! I never noticed that in the manual!

(Further proof that a proper manual really would be keen....)

I'm going to check it out now. Wicked!

It's like an early (...late??) Christmas.

Thanks!

[ladlon 10]

[Later that evening....]

Cool... Ya, that mission generator thing is good! Even better is the last one, that uses the Secom module (like the one I set up myself)... but also gives me airstrikes and everything! That is SWEEEEET!! Man, here I was with my own homemade, limited little mission, and all the time, this little gem was sitting there without me knowing it!

A shame that you can't have it randomly select things (like what enemies are present, what your target to destroy is, etc).... but the Secom one (last type on the list... I think it's called Combat) pretty much randomizes everything anyway.

I got to say, Arma2 certainly packs a lot of stuff into one package! I was already blown away (when I first got it) that I could fly planes, copters, and even the large planes. Then I was surprised to find all the other components (all the multiplayer modes)... and then my beloved Secom module, which was what I then used from that point on.

Now this! Great stuff!

I'm just having a go now... Made a few kills. Airstrike saved me from a large group of troops headed towards us. Got to really figure out the different types of strike (when I would use each one, etc)... as well as how to point to where you want the strike (...I think I got it right.. Just left clicked on the map... Seemed to work).

Never knew how to use the remote reconnaissance plane thing.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Well, you may also look into Mr-Murrays Editing Guide to get the basics:

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=4847

and try the wiki too

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Category:ArmA_2:_Editing

Happy hunting!

[ladlon 10]

@NoRailgunner: Yep, read all that. The Editor is what I've been using all this time... I created a simple 'random' mission session... Me and 3 other teammates, randomly placed somewhere on the map, the Secop and Ambient Combat modules set to go, and a Huey and Apache sitting at the airport (not part of my team) scripted so that I can have them temporarily join, dismiss or land by my command via the Radio feature.

That was cool, but I couldn't do things like artillery strikes... and my airstrikes were really me having the Apache or Huey temporarily becoming team members, and I order them to attack something. It worked...

But then yesterday, I was introduced to the mission creator by another user Nielsneo (earlier post in this thread), which I TOTALLY wasn't aware of! That basically gives me the same thing I was trying to set up (random missions), but includes airstrikes, artillery and even reconnaissance (...although I never understood how to use that!).

So, that's totally cool....

Now, I have to really learn the do's and don't's of formations, postures, techniques, and generally memorizing the commands numerically (so I don't have to battle the menu interface).

[Gritz 10]

Just thought I'd bounce in here and offer a couple things I've picked up. Like you ladlon, me and a couple buddies are newbies (a week in). When reading your OP, I knew exactly what you were talking about, and judging from several of the responses; I guess we're all in this together (when it comes to grass).

Anyway, in respect to grass, I feel your pain. But I guess there's a couple things I've sorta picked up that make it a little better.

First things is something somebody noted in this thread, but I think I'll kinda push it back up to front of the line to kinda underline it: 3rd person perspective.

I'm a big MMO player, so I'm more than comfortable with 3rd person perspective (usually), but I definitely do NOT like it in FPSims. BUT! It's pretty useful when you're lying in the grass. You still end up panning the camera down to ground level (which usually is again; obscured) to fire your weapon, but at least you can sorta tilt the camera a bit and get a clear(ish) view of what's over the grass. At the very least, it might allow you to see a better spot to move to. So far I've been liberally switching back and forth between First Person and 3rd Person Perspectives when I'm in the tall grass. I just might try to force myself to get used to 3rd Person all the time, because your little avatar does look cool as hell runnin' around out there, plus there is some increased situational awareness in that view.

The second thing is something I'm sure you've already learned just from trial and error: find a better spot. I know that sounds dumb, but I guess to put a finer point on it: find a good spot BEFORE you hit the deck. That's what's sorta been workin' for me. Time doesn't always allow for that, but just kinda have it in the back of your mind. It helps.

I always move crouched, so my perspective is sorta close to the ground and I just kind of have like a check list of things I want to do (avoid open ground, move to cover, figure out where and what I'm gonna do with the squad, etc) before I break cover and move to my next firing position. And one of the things is "what patch of ground is gonna give me (hopefully) decent breaks in the grass to have eyes on the target". As you mentioned, I'm usually looking for any bit of elevation to take advantage of. Good ground is everything. But I also try to do a little mental geometry or billiards in my head where I try to look at some patch of grass and say "ok, I think if I lie down facing that way, and if I draw a line between those tufts of grass towards what I think I'll be able to see through the grass..." stuff like that. I'm usually wrong, but I'm starting to surprise myself with the occasional sweet angles.

But of course, maybe the things that trumps everything in this is: in my little check list, being forced to lie in a field of grass is like LAST on my list of tactical choices (for obvious reasons). :p But, sometimes ya just have no choice.

Ok, I'll stop babbling now.

[forteh 11]

Ive also only recently started playing A2 and quite often struggle with the grass, since installing ACE2 (along with zeusAI, GL4 and some SLX components which incidentally make the game just work better :)) and therefore losing the crosshair you suddenly become absolutely reliant on the ironsites/optics.

This has caused me to slow down and consider the approach before getting into a postion that I couldnt get out of - i.e: playing the game properly. With the standard crosshair I could go prone into tall grass and still effectively target in 3rd person, switching to 1st person would be completely blind though. I do still use 3rd person whilst traversing ground as I find it gives a better sense of periferal vision but switch to 1st person if contact is expected.

One thing that does bug me though, whilst on a sniper mission (sealteam6 campaign1 mission 2 - operation dead kings) I found that the grass was blocking my vision/shot, scuffling forwards to flatten the grass helped but by the time I was back into my sniper position it had popped back up again!:mad:

That said I was really thankfull for the grass and my ghillie suit whilst I lay dead still to avoid the opfor search party a mere 10 metres away :D

I love this game!

[ladlon 10]

Hey, Gritz and forteh... Sorry, I haevn't been on this thread for a bit, if you were waiting for a response long.

Thanks for the advice and stuff! Welcome to Arma2!

Ya, I normally avoid 3rd person, but you are right about it being useful in such cases. Heck, even the dev diary video says that it is 'sort of more realistic than 1st person' (due to the 1st person view's lack of peripheral, etc).

You know, the other thing too is that I'm on the default (big island) map... which is notorious for it's long grass anyway!

But, again, I'm not bashing the game for being 'wrong', or that long grass is stupid.... I'm just there thinking, 'Well, this is realistic... This is good.... I just wonder how the heck everyone else is coping with this!'.

It's kind of funny sometimes too... I'd crawl forward a bit to flatten the grass in front of me... .only to find more grass that was behind that batch! I'd end up crawling all over the place, in search of that 'bald spot', cursing every time I'd flatten some grass or shrubs, only to uncover more grass and shrubs. I kept expecting that I'd end up at the enemy's feet, with him looking down at me with a puzzled and amused look on his face, thinking, 'Dude, why are you crawling around, making crop circles?'

[Flash Thunder 10]

Wrong!

No FACT