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Herbal Influence

BI Games delivered with own Operation System

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I know BIS might be annoyed to the repeated request to deliver a Linux version of the

game. :o

And sure they are tired of it and have heard all the arguements why people love it and seen that it is quite a lot of work which doesn't pay out - because who uses Linux?! :eek:

Aren't they those who love their Linux and their Free Software because it doesn't cost anything though Stallman repeatedly explained:

"It's not free like free beer. It's free like freedom." (or so).

Ok, here it is, my great news, my great idea:

Deliver the games as Linux versions together with Linux!

  • Linux allows since long parallel installation incl. OpenOffice within less than 30 min - leaves Microsoft untouched! (Dual boot option),
  • boots in less than 20 seconds and
  • is down in 2 seconds. (Ubuntu Linux 10.04))

As a package.


  1. You have more control of the whole software. In earnest, will you ever learn how Microsoft Windows really works? No, you can't though you need to. It is a closed shop. Nada. No freedom for developers, black hole. You depend on the bits of info they throw at you.
  2. It doesn't cost you anything and correctly communicated you deliver a big surplus to your customers. And - as far as I know - you are nevertheless allowed (refering to the GPL) to let customers pay for your proprietary software, but sure this should be checked by a lawyer.
  3. You would be able to advertise: MilSim with OS
  4. But, what I think, would be the most important thing: You would gain applause (and potential buyers) by the whole Linux Community. The Linux Community is growing, Linux is desktop ready (writing this on a Ubuntu Linux 10.4 - Alpha). I know children and very old people who use it every day.

Sure there is a danger:

People will excessively ask you to deliver the game as Open Source Software too, no question.

But with the correct marketing, I find it to be plausible enough to communicate the big step forward for OpenSource by this.

I hope you know you have a lot Linux fans.

I am sure you do since you deliver Linux server software since 2001.

The intelligence of freedom! - my personal trademark for linux ;-)

Yeah, I am really fascinated by Linux, using it professionally since 2004.

BIS is the only reason I have Microsoft still ..... :-(

Edited by Herbal Influence

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+1 for Linux compatibility with BI games.

Although I doubt it will happen any time soon...

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+1 from me. But this idea is like a revolution in gaming - no developers write modern games for Linux, I guess. And probability of linux version of arma is something like 0,0001% :D

---------- Post added at 22:06 ---------- Previous post was at 22:05 ----------

lol, Meek, your signature is the funniest I have ever seen in this forum :D

the game itself is not realistic, it is a GAME :D and only if people invent a "Matrix", like in "The Matrix" film, it will be realistic :)

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It is possible that Valve will release a native Linux and Mac Steam client this year.

That would make it a lot cheaper for BIS to develop binaries for those games as that saves them a lot of distribution problems.

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Cross-platform programming is the future, of course. I hope that Valve and others will support this "revolution". I, myself, would support migrating to freeware Linux.

(I know that Valve used both OpenGL and DirectX in their games, and it is a good fact, because OpenGL was and is a great thing, that makes gaming cross-platformed. Even if to judge from capitalists' theory, this will be good for money-makers, because they will gain new customers, let alone humane goals like providing games to more people on Earth :) )

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why did you have to make a new post about this?

you could have continued the current one called "Linux Port for BI Titles" a few post down.

altho +1 for arma on linux. :)

but sadly thats not going to happen unless you wine it.

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Thank you all for your comments on this.:)

It's not just the question of a port to Linux.

It's - lemme be that insane - a completely new idea.

It's freedom in excess - BIS games are free as hell and Linux is too.

It matches ... ... so unbelievable good ! ;-)

---------- Post added at 23:34 ---------- Previous post was at 23:23 ----------

I think they should port it to GNU Hurd.

Can you explain?

Another aspect - perhaps you mean that - is, that if they would use OpenBSD, they could indeed "compile it as a complete package".

But then they had to take care of every hardware problem ... and - I fear - no dual boot option.

With a Linux, like Ubuntu, they would also deliver a real surplus incl. OpenOffice and wouldn't have to care (that much) about hardware problems for Ubuntu would care for that.

Sure Canonical, the company supervising Ubuntu Linux would be interested in cooperating. :)

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I doubt it makes much sense to have a game that brings the OS with it. Imagine every game'd do it, you'd not have dual-boot, you'd have a twenty-boot ...?

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Well, yes - that's just one more reason only to use a common Linux (Distribution), like Ubuntu.

Here the GPL requires to leave them separate programs (Ubuntu and ArmAII) other than with the OpenBSD.

The user would have a big surplus too: He wouldn't need to buy Microsoft Products anymore which would spare him at least 80 Euros for MS Windows7 and a 500 Euros for the officesuite ...

Imagine buying a game for 50 Euros and receiving a fully functional and modern operation system including an officesuite .... beer anyone? ;-)

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Imagine buying a game for 50 Euros and receiving a fully functional and modern operation system including an officesuite .... beer anyone? ;-)

Imagine buying a game for 50 Euros and receiving a fully functional and modern system including an office suite which wouldn't run any other games.

I'm sorry, but unless other developers start publishing Linux versions of their titles there is just no point for BIS to make their own Linux distro. Note that I am not saying they shouldn't make a Linux version of the game itself, though I can imagine the pain behind porting the whole rendering engine to OpenGL and I'm pretty sure that's not the only thing that would need massive changes.

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Funny, i recall that open-office also runs in windows, Mac, etc... While unix system's are making a comeback it still has a way to go. I used to admin OpenVMS for Digital when i was younger. oh the horrors..

Funny part will be what happens when MS releases their phone that will allow people to play the same games on the phone, xbox, and pc. Developers will jump all over that I suspect. Should be interesting as it may also be that Sony makes the PSP phone a reality. Since they have Ericsson anyway it would be easy for them to market it to carriers quickly.

Oh yeah, forgot to say that OpenGL (last time I did any coding for it) didn't support any native networking, input or sound. Maybe it has changed but this was something that I found out when designing an audio front end for cars in the past. So adoption rates might be slower on the gaming side as they have to write that or license third party code for it. With the market being driven to produce results quicker the last thing you need to tell a shareholder is that you are working on your own networking, sound systems when there is one built into an API that 90% or more of the industry utilizes. Bis might be in a different boat as they have more freedoms but it all comes down to the bottom line. Keeping your company open, if you venture off and waste time in development on things like that it can have adverse affects down the road.

Also another issue with making a game on it's own OS is the fact that you might have to support that as well. I don't know how many game companies would like to take on the burden of supporting a game and the OS. To many different pieces of hardware to even try to deliver a unified driver. God forbid you have to deal with that mess.

Edited by Nutty_101
uugh

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Oh yeah, forgot to say that OpenGL (last time I did any coding for it) didn't support any native networking, input or sound.

I think, it is not as bad, because in latest OSes (new 7 and unpopular Vista), Micro$oft has got rid of EAX support for soundcards, and I think it was a great mistake of theirs! So developers have to write their own sound engines in both cases.

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I used to admin OpenVMS for Digital when i was younger.

Respect. I fired up VAX/VMS in an emulator once... The word 'arcane' doesn't seem strong enough. Supposedly one of the most reliable OSes around though, even to this day.

Can you explain?

See some of the points raised above. It's an awful lot of effort for a company to partake in for what boils down to freetard idealism.

Edited by echo1

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(....)

Also another issue with making a game on it's own OS is the fact that you might have to support that as well. I don't know how many game companies would like to take on the burden of supporting a game and the OS. To many different pieces of hardware to even try to deliver a unified driver. God forbid you have to deal with that mess.

Thanks for your posts!

I read them all but especially concerning OpenGL - I don't understand too much.

But in OpenSource the rule goes:

If you need something, you're gonna have it if people assemble.

Yeah, and the idea is to leave that hardware/OS "discussion" to one of the major distributions, especially not a rolling one (like Novell/Suse which has a contract with Microsoft which I find irritating to say the least), but one which delivers a stable and long time supported (LTS) version every four years like Ubuntu.

I am completely happy with the overwhelming quality of support I received and continue to receive and see people receive on the Ubuntu-Forums every minute.

And I - already - can easily help newcomers sometimes too.

Concerning the OS/hardware BIS would never be left alone - sure they might need more elaborated support in the beginning.

But I don't even think that - I firmly believe that every programmer is into Linux.

For this is a system you really can understand:

It is completely open, it's documented, structured and there are so many helpful hands to ask 24h/7days.

As I said, my Alpha Version (10.04 = Lucid Lynx) - typing on it now and 24h/7days :o - is already stable and will be released at the End of April 2010. It boots incredibly fast and is off when you hit "off". Installation, may it be together with Microsoft or not, is about 30 min incl. whole OpenOffice package.

And for the possibilities to run other games:

1) If you are into BIS games and have a fulltime job and/or family - I don't think there is much time for other games! :o

2) More important: Since 2001 I don't feel the need for other games at all.

Sometimes I think, especially when walking throught the barricades of other games in the supermarkets:

Wow --- a nice flight- or tanksimulator should be nice to play ... while a second later I remember I have all that in BIS games too, sure sometimes less granulated but on the other hand much more realistic for there is also a tank simulator "built-in"! :eek:

And, by the by, do you know the effect of turning round the DVD-package of a "great tank simulator" and looking at more precise pictures on the backside? :mad:

I am simply not interested when friends try to convince me of other games: I did do a lot of gaming before 2001 and only BIS games have been something really new and lasting to be really new. (I happen to watch into other games from time to time visiting friends, so I know them all but only superficial, I must admit.)

3) If you really wanna get into BIS games they need all the time you have for it - speaking of scripting, big crctis (often lasting a four hours), etc. etc.

(...)

See some of the points raised above. It's an awful lot of effort for a company to partake in for what boils down to freetard idealism.

Sure - it is a quite an effort.

And I see BIS undertaking other big efforts that pay out only partly - the Openess of BIS games always leads (and led) to quite the same of Openess to bugs.

And I immediately understand that either you need a kind of Warren Buffet in the background or you have to be quite genious.

The latter I think matches with BIS more than the first.

It is risky, it is (experi-)mental !

But wasn't it the same with:

1) Rynair - who would have thought you can earn money by requesting only 10 % of the fare?

2) Linux itself - Linus Torvalds never thought of his software being used worldwide in millions of millions of copies. Don't forget: Your Siemens TV, your Panasonic TV, your DVD player etc. etc. and soon even your BMW (Audio- and Infotainmentsystem) runs with embedded Linux too.

And BIS is already having a "nervous" customership which does play BIS games for they are that "open".

This matches so much with the Linux community.

Linuxers are mostly

- young academics or at least quite well educated

- thereunder mostly informatics or at least studying kind of technics

- extremely rational = clear thinking, willing to drop things in their way

- free-thinking i.e. hating dependency

- self-conscious, at least relating to software

- interested in understanding it all (which proprietary software doesn't make possible by principle)

- they decide which basic software runs in a company - at least give the most appreciated advice to the board of the company.

So there might be quite a rapid turn within the next years - people only need to suddenly realize what is the fact just today: Linux is more desktop ready than Microsoft ever was.

(Example: I reinstalled on this PC until now (for fun - for its a thing of 30 min, no activation calls, full versions etc.) about a six times Linux without any problems. A week ago I reinstalled WindowsXP - took me two hours, no sound anymore though this PC was delivered with that very MicrosoftXP, it's hardware being Microsoft optimized. And, I tell you what, I was astonished how fast it did boot with no other software on it. Astonished how fast Microsoft7 boots? Sure. But wait ... will boot time decrease like it does with all Microsoft in the past?

Linux - as far as I understand it - isn't affected at all by the amount of additonal software on the PC - for principal reasons.)

I want BIS to be the first to profit from it.

Edited by Herbal Influence

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Yeah, but how many people can you sell a game to at a retail store and expect them to head out to a community forum for support. They will go to the vendor right off or just demand a refund. Major retailers will drop that publisher/vendor if things like this happened. While you're thinking may be somewhat OK for people who are good with computers; you just end up cutting out a huge demographic of players.

Also education does not lean towards a specific OS, or computer. you might be amazed how many of the brightest people use systems for other reasons than cost or dependency. Even more funny is that there are quite a few people who are really good with computer systems yet tend to be more distant from the current education system. Aka people who dropout and lack a full education but are in all honesty quite brilliant in their own ways. So that person would be labeled as uneducated and fast food fodder. Just cause you went to school and got a comp Sci degree does not mean you will not use windows, MacOs, BeOs, Bsd or something else.

Also I find that a bigger demographic of people who use Linux defiantly do not match what you said above. Quite a few of my clients utilize something Unix based for the fact that the system's they utilize to this day started off on AIX, VAX, HP-UX or some other flavor of UNIX (Before MS was even networking). I saw this argument from somewhere else in an article and there really was a lack of basis for any of it.

Got me, just my two cents. One day I hope everything will be cross platform. Would remove issues with testing or having to implement multiple systems because something only uses xxx os.

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So are you saying that ArmA should be open sourced as well?

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Yeah, but how many people can you sell a game to at a retail store and expect them to head out to a community forum for support. They will go to the vendor right off or just demand a refund. Major retailers will drop that publisher/vendor if things like this happened. While you're thinking may be somewhat OK for people who are good with computers; you just end up cutting out a huge demographic of players.

I understand and appreciate.

But if you look at our community of BI gamers: They're having fun with tweaking things. It's like in the ol' days they were modding their bikes 'n cars ... ;-)

But sure, they, the market, should be prepared indeed:

It shouldn't be sold as bugfree, but "open" instead.

There is a lot of "communication" to be done - a genious marketing concept must accompany the whole thing.

Ubuntu itself is absolutely stable, especially when you are giving it only one task, which should be done: Run Arma3.

Linux Distros suck when you want to use exotic hardware and there is no driver at all, sure. But that must be communicated, is not BIS problem: It's a surplus that you can print, surf the internet with Firefox, email with "Evolution" etc. etc. - all "with your Arma3" ! ;-))

Also education does not lean towards a specific OS, or computer. you might be amazed how many of the brightest people use systems for other reasons than cost or dependency. Even more funny is that there are quite a few people who are really good with computer systems yet tend to be more distant from the current education system. Aka people who dropout and lack a full education but are in all honesty quite brilliant in their own ways. So that person would be labeled as uneducated and fast food fodder. Just cause you went to school and got a comp Sci degree does not mean you will not use windows, MacOs, BeOs, Bsd or something else.

You are absolutely right.

But on the other hand: Those I described exist too.

I have seen Linux addicted academics in UK, France and Germany.

They are hardcore, they can "speak" - meaning, they will be able and willing to create a lobby for freedom and Linux.

It's not that I don't also see the people you describe.

But are they as "loud", as "verbal"?

I wish they are - don't know too much of that group, but I hope they are.

They only have to get rid of their Stockholm syndrome relating to their closed and proprietary software :p

Also I find that a bigger demographic of people who use Linux defiantly do not match what you said above. Quite a few of my clients utilize something Unix based for the fact that the system's they utilize to this day started off on AIX, VAX, HP-UX or some other flavor of UNIX (Before MS was even networking). I saw this argument from somewhere else in an article and there really was a lack of basis for any of it.

Well ... my view is the German universities which all full of people engaged in Linux - many frustrated by proprietary software, because it simply cannot be studied for it is a black box and is a big dependency with no chance to overcome it ever.

Got me, just my two cents. One day I hope everything will be cross platform. Would remove issues with testing or having to implement multiple systems because something only uses xxx os.

Ok - and free, at least the basic systems, the operation systems ... which is an answer to ...

So are you saying that ArmA should be open sourced as well?

... no, I understand perfectly well, that BIS only has a chance with leaving it proprietary. And I don't see a problem in this whereas I don't like Microsoft to be proprietary. For some good reasons: Microsoft is a defacto-monopolist and it has problems with the laws every now and then, because it seems it wants to raise it's monopoly to 101 %.

Developed a nice software?

Don't dare not to deliver a Microsoft Main Version of it - or go bankcrupt. :mad:

That's reality all over the world in 1980 - 2010, for more than 30 years now.

I think people would get nervous if they would see only BMWs down the streets ... :cool:

The rules can be different in these ways for BIS:

BIS is a niche game developer.

It can go on earning little money with private consumers, and more money with military all over the world.

But it could only make a revolution of the market - the way I described it.

OFP has been revolutionary.

BIS has a tendency to genious thinking.

If 90 % of the economy and the private people use BIS games everyday I would say: BIS ! You earned enough, it's an obligation to society to deliver the sourcecode. :eek:

But not before.

Edited by Herbal Influence

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I understand and appreciate.

But if you look at our community of BI gamers: They're having fun with tweaking things. It's like in the ol' days they were modding their bikes 'n cars ... ;-)

But they probably don't make up the majority of people who buy the game. And not everyone who likes making missions or mods is that computer literate... You're going to put people off because of reasons that boil down to "lol, open source strong!!111"

Ubuntu itself is absolutely stable

Bullshit. In my experience, very few serious Linux users go anywhere near the thing, it just breaks too much. Once one of their releases comes out, it invariably has a load of bugs or some half-baked feature that has been rushed out before it's ready (Pulseaudio, some of the HAL replacement stuff etc.). You wait six months, and... more bugs. Not to mention the reams of bloatware it gets shipped with. I ran Ubuntu on my PC between 2006-2007 and on my laptop between 2008-2009, and in both cases, it was just problem after problem. I know many other Linux users who had the same issues as I did, so it wasn't some isolated problem, or my incompetence. Oh, and in both instances, they suddenly disappeared when I switched to Arch.

The great dilemma with Linux is that all the good ones (e.g. Arch, Debian, Slackware and others) require the user to know what they're doing, and all the easy ones are often as bad if not worse than Windows (especially given the release of Windows 7, which is a great OS whether you like MS or not). This isn't a co-incidence - when you have to configure everything from scratch, you end up building a system that works in just the way you want. Contrast this with Ubuntu, Fedora et al. where they try and second guess how everyone wants their system to work which causes all sorts of problems and is a lot of work to undo. I'm involved in a society in college that promotes *nix usage, and we have the problem that when people want to know what to try to get familar with Linux, we have to recommend them Ubuntu, despite the fact that none of use it, and most of us hate it. In a sense, we're like the drug dealer who starts someone off on hash so that we can sell them heroin later... but that's another story.

Linux Distros suck when you want to use exotic hardware and there is no driver at all, sure. But that must be communicated, is not BIS problem: It's a surplus that you can print, surf the internet with Firefox, email with "Evolution" etc. etc. - all "with your Arma3" ! ;-))

So you're saying that BIS is just going to magically convince all the hardware vendors to come out with open source drivers? Not going to happen.

Truth be told, Linux works good with exotic hardware, it just doesn't work well with obscure El-Cheapo Brand stuff for which there are no drivers available. Same stuff is going to have bad Windows drivers too so you're better off avoiding it.

You are absolutely right.

But on the other hand: Those I described exist too.

I have seen Linux addicted academics in UK, France and Germany.

They are hardcore, they can "speak" - meaning, they will be able and willing to create a lobby for freedom and Linux.

It's not that I don't also see the people you describe.

But are they as "loud", as "verbal"?

I wish they are - don't know too much of that group, but I hope they are.

They only have to get rid of their Stockholm syndrome relating to their closed and proprietary software :p

As I said, I'm involved with people who are very interested in Linux, but not many of them are into the hardline interpretation of open source. I think most people lose interest in that sort of stuff around the point where they can't use proper drivers for their hardware or video codecs because they're not "free as in freedom". There are plenty of pragmatic reasons for using open source and Linux, but subscribing to the cult of RMS is not really one of them.

Well ... my view is the German universities which all full of people engaged in Linux - many frustrated by proprietary software, because it simply cannot be studied for it is a black box and is a big dependency with no chance to overcome it ever.

Right, but you're talking about a commercial product here... what percentage of potential ArmA customers have those interests? Very few I'm willing to bet.

Edited by echo1

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Thanx for your learned answer!

You are absolutely right that the future customers have to be invented :868: in a way - like always when you plan a revolution of the market like Rynair and quite all other revolutionary products.

You even have to put into account that the proprietary software sellers - don't like to call them developers for little has been developed by them, but much if not most by others - fight :292: you - like they used to do.

(Sure, you know that windows weren't developed by Microsoft - but how many still do?

Microsoft forbids everyone to even use the word "windows" for own software!)

Since 2004 I am running Linux (first Suse, than Ubuntu) on more than four 24h/7days professionally used desktop computers used as desktop computers in the sense of enduser everydays work.

As I said I know kids and people 67+ using Ubuntu without frowning continuously.

Stable 24h/7days - with no more support than you need doing Microsoft OSs.

But - I admit - the average Linuxer, who is mostly a parttime techfreak, is maybe not even the one who would consent with me. For one simple reason:

They are steadily "interpreting" the "never change a running system" into "daily try something new" and so they steadily have something to tweak.

The outcome is that especially the Linuxfreakz have a worse opinion of Ubuntus stability than the simple professional enduser.

Microsoft7 seems to be really great - compared to Vista.

To call Microsoft7 a great OS is, now only using your language, bullshit.

Not only in terms of freedom and security which you might take more serious?

Just take a short look into the Microsoft7-forums and see the helpless community tweaking around.

I see no advantage at all under professional aspects (using it in enterprise or governments, like in France) compared Ubuntu 9.10 or even 10.04 but many and basic disadvantages.

Do you know what data is transfered - let's say 'in the background' - to Microsoft?

Sure, if you believe them.

Can you proof it?

Why don't they allow you to control it? Why do they encrypt the data send?

Why don't you get a copy of the files sent not even as an option?

Etc. etc. - for professionals that are by law required to keep their data secure that's quite a serious thing. What about a lawyer having a law suit against Microsoft and his OS phoning "in the background" with Microsoft encrypted?

We know the last porn you watched.

And delivering the last used files - like the ms-mediaplayer did regularly at last in the versions about 2002? There was no laymens possibility to stop the MS-mediaplayer from doing this, no deinstallation possible, even "Antispy" couldn't hinder it! It's an inevitably part of the OS they said, like the IE!

We are more informed today? Wasn't it a lie?

(I don't know if Microsoft still has this practise but I never read they stopped it.)

>Not to mention the reams of bloatware it gets shipped with.

Got no bloatware with Ubuntu 9.04, 9.10 oder 10.04 at all, but got a lot of that with OEM Microsoft 95, 98 and MicrosoftXP.

Don't you remember switching all the "demo" and "advertising software" off after you started your OEM Microsoft PCs?

And there is not much space for bloatware on simple Ubuntu-CD (incl. OpenOffice!) for installation - but a lot on the DVD Microsoft ships it's OS.

>In a sense, we're like the drug dealer who starts someone off on hash so that we can sell them heroin later... but that's another story.

You could do much worse. :eek:

Sure freedom is never for free.

Nothing seems easier than buying a preinstalled Apple/Microsoft computer thingie and thereby accept rigid DRM and wave standards.

Freedom is a chance to take.

Freedom is something you have to care for.

But my idea for BIS is:

Take the chance of a revolution coming - before others do.

You are used to that kind of philosophy.

Make money of it.

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime."

For BIS this means:

You have the possibility to really get control of what's going on technically.

No more secrets, no more fishing in the fog. :computer:

No more begging :pray: a monopolist to do this or that.

Or not to do this or that.

Edited by Herbal Influence

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Since 2004 I am running Linux (first Suse, than Ubuntu) on more than four 24h/7days professionally used desktop computers used as desktop computers in the sense of enduser everydays work.

As I said I know kids and people 67+ using Ubuntu without frowning continuously.

Stable 24h/7days - with no more support than you need doing Microsoft OSs.

I'm afraid that there's nothing much I can say here. I've just seen too many Ubuntu systems die when they're used for anything more than basic tasks. As far as I'm concerned, arguing with someone over my experience with my own machines and machines of others is like arguing with someone who keeps saying that the sky is green.

Ubuntu in trying to be a jack of all trades results in a complete lack of focus... It tries to have the latest features AND be stable at the time, which results in it being neither. This of course isn't limited to Ubuntu, alot of the mainstream distros suffer from it. I think the problem at the end of the day is that they try to be like Windows and fail.

Microsoft7 seems to be really great - compared to Vista.

To call Microsoft7 a great OS is, now only using your language, bullshit.

Do you actually have any concrete reasons for hating Windows other than "OH NO IT'S NOT OPEN SOURCE!!!111"? Because that's what it looks like from this end. I run Windows 7 on one of my machines. Sure you can't hack around with it as much as Linux, but it's good as a desktop OS (which was what it was designed for), and in that regard, I've had much less issues with it compared with the likes of Ubuntu (I think the last time Windows 7 locked up on me was when I was using one of the early Alpha versions... I've had absolutely no problems with the current release)

Basing your opinions on why OSes are good or bad based on what Richard Stallman and his Open Source Gestapo have to say doesn't really add anything to the discussion. After all, they are the people responsible for this mess.

Not only in terms of freedom and security which you might take more serious?

Just take a short look into the Microsoft7-forums and see the helpless community tweaking around.

I'm one of those silly people who value the functionality of their computer over lofty pseudo-intellectual idealism. If Microsoft released a version of Windows that was objectively better than Linux, I'd drop Linux and use it.

We know the last porn you watched.

I doubt it.

And delivering the last used files - like the ms-mediaplayer did regularly at last in the versions about 2002? There was no laymens possibility to stop the MS-mediaplayer from doing this, no deinstallation possible, even "Antispy" couldn't hinder it! It's an inevitably part of the OS they said, like the IE!

We are more informed today? Wasn't it a lie?

(I don't know if Microsoft still has this practise but I never read they stopped it.)

So what about, for example, Canonical selling out to Yahoo?

Got no bloatware with Ubuntu 9.04, 9.10 oder 10.04 at all, but got a lot of that with OEM Microsoft 95, 98 and MicrosoftXP.

Don't you remember switching all the "demo" and "advertising software" off after you started your OEM Microsoft PCs?

And there is not much space for bloatware on simple Ubuntu-CD (incl. OpenOffice!) for installation - but a lot on the DVD Microsoft ships it's OS.

Open Office is a fine example of bloatware. It takes an ungodly amount of time to start up and isn't properly compatible with Word documents. If I'm writing my own documents, I'll use some form of LaTeX, if I'm editing other people's work, I'll use a Windows machine with MS Office. Sure MS Office is a terrible piece of software, but at least it lets me do what I need to do.

Bloatware is obviously going to be a subjective thing, and I get the impression that you'll refute any allegations I'll make for the sake of it. And the fact that you have to use Windows 95 as an example as opposed to any contemporary version of Windows says an awful lot.

For BIS this means:

You have the possibility to really get control of what's going on technically.

No more secrets, no more fishing in the fog. :computer:

No more begging :pray: a monopolist to do this or that.

Or not to do this or that.

No, what this means is reimplementing their software on a platform which is barely supported for what they are doing. DirectX is well documented, well tried, well tested. OpenGL isn't up to the same scratch as it... It just hasn't seen anywhere near the same level of development. I'm sure you're going to say "BUT ITS OPEN SOURCE EVERYONE WILL WRITE STUFF FOR IT" but I somehow doubt that BIS is going to go to that trouble. I'd say that they have no issues making their software for Windows and that there's very little incentive to port stuff over to Linux to appease some RMS fanbois.

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Herbal Influence - most people want a system or software that works out of the box without spending too much time with installing and setup procedures.

MAC OS and Windows are doing better install/update job for them than any Linux distribution.

People want install, play and enjoy a game - nothing more and nothing less.

How many games are today released too soon and without proper testing? How many so called "release patches" are out after few days/weeks?

Isn't it the publisher/developer who are making the schedules and testing their projects before releasing them?

Its imho quite naive to say that Linux/"own gaming OS" will be the cure of all problems and issues. Trying to play the "freedom" card doesn't make it look better.

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Sorry for offtopic, couldn't but answer...

Microsoft7 seems to be really great - compared to Vista.

Win7 as well as Vi$ta are very uncomfortable, ugly and unusable for me (at least because of sound problems, no EAX, memory eater, stupid and complicated menus and so on... )

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@ch_123:

0.

You mix it with a so-called rolling release.:o

- Ubuntu delivers fixed releases about every six months and supports each version for 18 months. Different to other Linux versions they do only fix the existing software during that time, but don't support implementation of new standard software.

- Additionally Ubuntu delivers Long Time Support versions every three or four years. Lucid Lynx i.e. "10.4" will again be a LTS version - supported for more than

1.

You say OpenOffice is slow starting up. :confused:

I do open start OpenOffice on my PC now and count the seconds:

It's "ready-to-write" within less than one single second! On Ubuntu Linux 10.4 (Alpha3).

2.

And you say it is not compatible? :eek:

It's much more compatible to anything out there than Microsoft Office ever was! You can import/export a thousand kinds of formats, including hideous formats like Microsofts ones.

Many people I know use OpenOffice to open older or corrupted Microsoft Office files, Microsoft Office itself cannot open.

Many people I know use Linux Live CDs to rescue their Microsoft OSs when - again - somewhat "went wrong".

3.

Ubuntu Linux does not sell anything to Yahoo than just the first rank in the standard search of the Firefox-Browser 3.6.

At the time being (Ubuntu 9.10) it is Google.

But I already have Yahoo here for I am using the Alpha Version.

4.

You doubt they know that you have been watching porn?

Take a look of the amount of data they officially collect from your PC and add the info they gather while you're on their sites or on bing.com.

I don't say they analyse and sum up these data to identify you actually.

They simply aren't interested in that right now.

But what thin layer is there between you and the collected data?

5. You wrote: "Do you actually have any concrete reasons for hating Windows other than "OH NO IT'S NOT OPEN SOURCE!!!111"?"

Oh sure I have.

I am quite a rational being, I don't hate Microsoft,

But I see they are a danger to freedom and diversity.

I don't hate them but I don't want to have to love them.

I want softwaredevelopers - like BIS - to have a choice!

Nowadays they don't have a choice. :mad:

You like your Firefox, Opera (-> fastest one!), Chrome?

Not only Mozilla (Firefox) would have died long ago if not the EU Commission would have shown that Microsoft publicly lied maintaining that the IE is an inevitable element of the Microsoft OS.

You want us all to be urged to use what Microsoft wants us to use - by far not the fastest but the most insecure browser on the market, the IE ?

You like the possibility to have other Mediaplayers?

Firefox would have died long ago if not the EU Commission would have shown that Microsoft publicly lied maintaining that the MS Mediaplayer is an inevitable element of the Microsoft OS.

Now there are so many nice ones out there!

Some with features you simply don't find in MS-product.

Especially ones who don't talk regurlarly behind your back about what you did hear or watch with them? (As I know from 2002-MS-Mediaplayer.)

You know why Microsoft payed a lot money as a punishment to the EU Commission - and not only to them?

You know that the chief of the antitrust bureau of the US lost his job shortly afterwards he wanted Microsoft to be divided into smaller companies?

You know Microsoft wants pure softwarepatents - which are completely crap and illegal in the EU? US patent lawyers themselves call the US patent system "rotten" and the USPTO is trying to stop this decadence.

But, no, I don't hate them.

I love freedom :) and an effective software economy.

And I love the antitrust regulators who repeatedly told Microsoft not to destroy the freedom of softwareindustry and the freedom of choice for us all.

6. Ubuntu Linux is a supported OS - as I said.

@NailRunner:

Ubuntu Linux works "out of the box".

I don't say it just so - I did install it a lot of times flawlessly and fast.

Test it - there is no danger in doing so: It takes you 15 min to download the iso-image, than burn it on a CD and install it (30 min - with OpenOffice!) without touching your Microsoft Software, like here.

Sure you don't have the Adobe flashplayer immediately - for they don't deliver proprietary software with it. But with three clicks you have it additionally installed within a two minutes.

Edited by Herbal Influence

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@ch_123:

0.

You mix it with a so-called rolling release.:o

- Ubuntu delivers fixed releases about every six months and supports each version for 18 months. Different to other Linux versions they do only fix the existing software during that time, but don't support implementation of new standard software.

- Additionally Ubuntu delivers Long Time Support versions every three or four years. Lucid Lynx i.e. "10.4" will again be a LTS version - supported for more than

Yes, I know this. In fact, if you read my posts you would know that I was aware of this. Why suggest otherwise?

2.

And you say it is not compatible? :eek:

It's much more compatible to anything out there than Microsoft Office ever was! You can import/export a thousand kinds of formats, including hideous formats like Microsofts ones.

Many people I know use OpenOffice to open older or corrupted Microsoft Office files, Microsoft Office itself cannot open.

In my experience, Open Office mangles the docx and related files created and used by Microsoft Office 2007 and later. And who cares what other formats it can deal with - doc and docx are the ones that just about everyone uses anyway! Oh sure there's all sorts of mandates in various places to use Open Office format and the like, but do you actually encounter regular, non-techy people using them on a regular basis? I doubt it.

And I'm pretty sure it's easy to make MS Office support the open formats anyway.

4.

You doubt they know that you have been watching porn?

Take a look of the amount of data they officially collect from your PC and add the info they gather while you're on their sites or on bing.com.

Such as? Concrete figures plx.

5. You wrote: "Do you actually have any concrete reasons for hating Windows other than "OH NO IT'S NOT OPEN SOURCE!!!111"?"

Oh sure I have.

I am quite a rational being, I don't hate Microsoft,

But I see they are a danger to freedom and diversity.

I don't hate them but I don't want to have to love them.

I want softwaredevelopers - like BIS - to have a choice!

Nowadays they don't have a choice. :mad:

You like your Firefox, Opera (-> fastest one!), Chrome?

Not only Mozilla (Firefox) would have died long ago if not the EU Commission would have shown that Microsoft publicly lied maintaining that the IE is an inevitable element of the Microsoft OS.

There's two problems with this -

1) Firefox was popular long before the EU started getting angry at MS, and whilst IE was still being tightly integrated with Windows.

2) You're getting into idealism here, 95%+ of computer users don't really care about the politics of the companies who set the trends. When I say Windows 7 is a good OS, I assess this on the basis that it does what it's meant to do and it does it in a reliable manner. Sure Microsoft have done a lot of evil things and damaged the the market, but that doesn't really change the fact that occasionally (very occasionally) they manage to make something decent.

Oh, and Opera is closed source.

6. Ubuntu Linux is a supported OS - as I said.

So is Windows...

Edited by echo1

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