Very Unprofessional Assassins

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I'm not interested in detailed speculation; the bigger picture tells me a thousand-word story.

The 'people' had all the time in the universe: they have developed a monotheistic religion, somewhat unifying the bedouins across the sands, but - the steam engine didn't come out of the land of Eden, nor the gunpowder and so forth.

They did delve into mathematics, so they could trade with the Empires of the world, but no more than that - climate and the message in their Holy book played their roles. (This applies to Africa more so than it does there)

I do agree that if any of the groups such as Hamas get a chance at a black-market nuke, they will use it A-SAP. Conventional war against Israel is not an option.

To stay on topic: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/Israeli-PM-authorised-Mossad-to-kill-Hamas-leader-Report/articleshow/5599890.cms

"

Based on information obtained from "sources with knowledge of Mossad," London-based Sunday Times reported that Netanyahu gave green light for the 'Dubai operation' to Mossad chief Meir Dagan during a meeting at the Midrasha, the intelligence agency's headquarters, in early January.

Times said when Netanyahu was briefed about the operation some members of a hit squad were also present in the room.

"As the man who gives final authorisation for such operations, Netanyahu was briefed on plans to kill Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, a member of Hamas, the militant Islamic group that controls Gaza," the newspaper reported."

"

The above doesn't surprise anyone; Bin Laden is a boogeyman, the 'people' in Palestine and Lebanon are not.

I'll refrain from further participation in this discussion.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Iroquois Pliskin

[walker 0]

Hi all

The depth to which Mossad security was breached by how badly the Mahmoud al-Mabhouh assassination went awry continue to mount inexorably.

The strategic failure to plan for and account for both the CCTV and potential blowback is all too apparent.

Latest news.

1) The number of confirmed identified agents in the case has risen to 26.

2) Dubai and various other countries have now started back tracking the agents and other agents from the same signature passport methods of the Mossad and several past missions have been identified with those agents now also identified. As I pointed out right at the start, the infection from this will probably cost Mossad 100s of agents. Essentially a domino effect.

3) It appears that diplomatic passports were involved, if it turns out they are cloned that will be very bad both for the nation which allowed its national security to be so badly compromised and for Mossad as such a country will not be able to let the matter off lightly. It is possible that they were just Israeli diplomatic passports though.

4) The address of a house owned by the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) of Ireland 's Family was one of those used by outed agents; increasing the outrage in that country.

5) Australian passports have now been added to the list of those that were used.

6) On a tactical note one of agents actually misspelled her covers first name.

7) 14 of the credit cards used in the operation were traced to one META Bank in the United States which is now under investigation.

The cost to Mossad and Israel of this strategic intelligence blunder continues to grow.

As I said originally I expect the head of Mossad will have to go and probably the current Israeli government will fall.

Kind Regards walker

Post Script

I have just been looking at the pictures of the recently released additional 15 suspects and the French passport looks almost as if the picture may have been cut out with a craft knife and stuck in over the top! It really does, I kid you not, have a look!

http://www.france24.com/en/20100224-dubai-has-15-new-western-suspects-hamas-killing-0

This was one of the supporting cast of agents providing logistical support according to the Dubai police. I am guessing some of them may have been from the Sayanim the Mossad's volunteer amateur Secret Squirrel wing.

Additional videos and photographs of the suspects are now being released.

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/crime/dubai-identifies-15-new-suspects-in-hamas-case-1.587918

Six more suspect British passports have been identified as well as additional Irish and three Australian passports.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7039272.ece

Dubai and other nations are using state of the art facial recognition and other software to track the onward journeys of the suspects.

With the number of Mossad agents doubling every week the possibility that one dies as a result or worse is captured, increases.

I continue to say this was a serious strategic blunder at the operational planning level.

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 24, 2010 by walker

[Guest]

Who, me?

No way!

[Daniel 0]

I like how all the passport photos are so blatantly fake. Glasses? Smiles? On UK Passports?...

[walker 0]

Hi all

The international blowback from the operation continues to rise with now 10 Irish passports used in the operation.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/ireland/up-to-10-fake-irish-passports-used-by-dubai-assassins-447599.html

Kind Regards walker

[TRexian 0]

If that's true, I believe that means Ireland would hold the lead in fake-passports in this incident! w00t! :) Eire FTW! :D

Kidding aside, if indeed the Mossad was behind it (and I still doubt it), I find the reliance on Irish credentials to be ironic on several levels....

[walker 0]

If that's true, I believe that means Ireland would hold the lead in fake-passports in this incident! w00t! :) Eire FTW! :D ...

Hi TRexian

Actualy there are 12 UK passports that have been identified as used by suspects in the operation; NB of those so far released!

At the moment it is

12 UK passports

10 Irish passports

3 Australian passports

3 French passports

1 German passport

There are also at least 2 Diplomatic passports mentioned and an American passport was mentioned.

It is possible I suppose, that the Diplomatic passport could have been a US one I supose but that would be a very serious matter for Mossad. I cannot think that Mossad would be that stupid.

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 25, 2010 by walker

[echo1 0]

If that's true, I believe that means Ireland would hold the lead in fake-passports in this incident! w00t! :) Eire FTW! :D

From the photos I've seen, the counterfeiters forged the old style of passport, which were phased out almost five years ago in favor of a newer style with a pile of additional anti-counterfeit features.

However, there are plenty of people (myself included) who still have the old style of passport - bare in mind that we have 10-year passports so there are some that are going to valid up to about late 2015. However, I wouldn't be surprised given this embarrassment if the Irish government, and indeed others, force people with older passports to 'upgrade' as per se.

Edited February 24, 2010 by echo1

[TRexian 0]

Those damn Brits - always foiling Ireland's efforts to be the best! ;) :D

I read of the use of diplomatic passports, and am very curious about that. That would seem even more difficult to pull off.

Hey walker - I've read of new vids released by Dubai but haven't found them online. Any links?

[walker 0]

Hi TRexian

The Gulf News link above has part of it. I am trying to get hold of the extended cut but I think they will take a while as I think as I think the stuff about the diplomatic passports is included so I guessing from the way the News is being "Handled" that that will be released next week.

As I said before for the reasons I made clear I think there is ample evidence to make me think this was a counter spy operation by some organisation inimical to Israel that lead Mossad up the Garden path and got them to show everyone their nickers.

Kind Regards walker

[TRexian 0]

If that is true, though, it would be a group who also wanted this guy killed.

Perhaps another incident in the Fatah v. Hamas rivalry?

I keep coming back to the fact that there wasn't really anything unique about this "hit." I mean, it isn't like all of a sudden we now know that Mossad (maybe) uses disguises and fake passports. All the tradecraft used (that we can see so far) is pretty basic stuff. You can't really say it is indicative of any one nation or agency.

Hell, it could even be some rich Saudi who this guy owed money too and he used mercenaries to send a message to others. It may have been done for something unrelated to terrorism.

Ok, I doubt it, but there you go. :)

Edit:

I guess the one thing we can be reasonably sure of is that it wasn't:

UK

Ireland

Germany

France

Australia

:)

[walker 0]

Hi TRexian

I raised that as a possibility early on and it was extended by Rock and I gave a more detailed reasoning and assessment of it to NoRailgunner

...

Scenario A)

The possibility that a party inimical to Israel ran the whole operation to smear Israel. As Rock described it. In which case it shows an extremely high level of sophistication; of a level that requires a nation state of the highest capability. It also means Israeli Security is bust wide open enough that foreign agents can break willy nilly into the houses of virtually any Israeli; steal their passports, clone them, and return them without them knowing. This unknown agency was there for some time executing this plan. Further that said unknown agency has the capability to pick those Israelis so must have a database of suitable candidates, so as to cause maximum damage, in which case I am surprised one or more US passports were not chosen. While I entertain the scenario I think it unlikely and requires Mossad to have virtually fallen apart, for a foreign agency to run such an operation within Israel.

Scenario B)

The possibility that a party inimical to Israel lured Mossad into attacking an already dieing man looking for that thing Muslim Jihadis look for a "martyrs death" silly numbers of inexperienced virgins crap etc. They decide to lay the trap in the most CCTV-ed country in the world. This means they get a world class Police service from a Non Radical and there for trust worthy nation to do most of the observation for them. They decide the time and place to conduct the operation. They give Mossad a short time window this makes spotting the incoming agents easier. They have past Mossad operations to go on.

They encapsulate the Mossad inputs, provide a source of the targets movements, probably supply additional information to cement the sources status. One or more of the Palestinian Mossad assets who were caught or any Palestinian asset who was not caught could easily be a double agent who is feeding Mossad the scent while identifying the inbound agents. Heck source might be genuine but being fed they information, that is the simplest and does not require the source to lie. Why the source could even be electronic, a discovered one or one allowed to be found.

They place a cordon round the Mossad. Perhaps with Dubai's help? Motivation for Dubai is they do not like Mossad's targeted killings. Those observing in Dubai are not doing anything suspicious or illegal they are just gathering the evidence, it is completely passive, so it does not need Dubai's active support and is unlikely to raise their ire. They just note which CCTV cameras spot each of the Mossad agents and at what time. I would look to see if any of the CCTV at any of the locations cameras got a recent free service and upgrade.

The level of sophistication is considerably lower than the alternative of spying and conducting operations within Israel. The watchers do not have to observe tightly the whole time unlike Mossad surveillance team. In the main they just note which CCTV camera they have just passed. About six agents per major hotel plus a couple at the target hotel and an airport team possibly using airport and or passport staff.

Mossad has started to believe its own myths so they will not think they are under observation if they are after the target and only the target matters they will be focused inwardly toward the target. In this way they encapsulate the Mossad team and its activities.

They let them carry out their operation.

And slowly start to feed Dubai police the answers

The Results

In both scenarios the results are the same:

Tactical

Mossad goes home and congratulates them selves. The target is dead they got away with it all Israelis out of the country. Sure some Palestinian assets got caught but they don't count.

A Tactical Victory!

Strategy

The film comes out,

i) All the agents even the ones not identified by Dubai police are now useless, you cannot be sure the other side has not got those identities that are not named.

ii) Dubai is turned against Israel

iii) Mossads habit of cloning passports from not unfriendly nations has a long history and was a predictable aspect. 25 year ago it caused a big problem when UK passports were used and Israel was forced to promise not to do it any more, Ditto the poison in the ear Canadian passports, and the New Zealand passports. Israeli Governments have fallen in the past as a result of less than this. IMHO this time it is worse as several nations are affected at the same time.

iv) Mossads targeted killings operation gets called into question and probably put on hold.

v) If we are talking scenario A), the one described by Rock, then Mossad's opposition are using Mossads own ambiguity strategy against them, a truly sophisticated, dare I say brilliant stratagem. I dont think strategy A) is likely myself but it is a possibility.

vi) Mossad and Israel get castigated by the whole world, Ambassadors get quizzed and carpeted.

vii) Israel suffers sanctions and costs at the hands of formerly friendly nations.

vii) Mossads image is tarnished. Its public trust decreased. Probaly takes a knock to its morale and spends time writing reports and reviews trying to find out what went wrong. Trust in assets is knocked and questioned.

ix) Hamas gets a martyr from a man who was dieing anyway

A Strategic Failure.

Kind Regards walker

It remains my thought: that a force inimical to Israel, able carry out such a convoluted plot as that in Scenario A, would not need to do it; as by definition: it would have so comprehensively infiltrated Mossad that the Israeli Security agency would have become nothing more than a shell inhabited by its foe.

So I remain convinced of Scenario B) as that which most easily fits the facts particularly, the fact he was dieing of cancer, gave his travel plans over the Internet and in a telephone conversation with his family in Gaza that he new would be monitored by Mossad and that he traveled on a passport in his own name without his usual body guards and did not apply counter surveillance techniques.

The reliance on your opponents own prejudice and beliefs to carry out an operation have been a standard of Intelligence Operations since forever. I already gave the example of the D Day deception plan Operation Fortitude where the Nazis were encouraged to believe what they wanted to believe. You can find the concept described in Sun Tzu, Von Clausewitz, and Machiavelli too. It is an ancient counterintelligence strategy.

Kind Regards walker

Post Script

Another Irish passport has now been identified in the case bringing the grand total to 11 Irish passports faked so far.

There is a PDF of the so far identified suspects I do not know if it includes the latest Irish passport used. It does not include the reference to two Diplomatic passports alluded to nor does it include the American passport that has been alluded to.

http://www.thenational.ae/assets/pdf/AD53408224.PDF

Hi all

Further I just noticed almost all of them flew back to Zurich. Man that is a give away! I am guessing they have a large operational base there. Almost certain to be spotted and watched by Israel's enemies since the Assassination. Probably their passport drop cut-off. On to land transport with new passports from there I would think. Or maybe all on to a Swiss Chartered holiday flight to Israel. I wonder if there was a charted holiday flight to Israel with say 30 plus seats confirmed leaving a few days after they had all arrived. I wonder how Switzerland will feel with its Neutrality being broken?

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 24, 2010 by walker

[TRexian 0]

Looking at that pdf... I'm thinking it was CIA.

Edit:

BTW - list of countries that have the relaxed rules about getting into Dubai:

* Andorra

* Australia

* Austria

* Belgium

* Brunei

* Canada

* Denmark

* Finland

* France

* Germany

* Greece

* Holland (Netherlands)

* Hong Kong

* Iceland

* Ireland

* Italy

* Japan

* Liechtenstein

* Luxembourg

* Malaysia

* Monaco

* Netherlands (Holland)

* New Zealand

* Norway

* Portugal

* San Marino

* Singapore

* South Korea

* Spain

* Sweden

* Switzerland

* United Kingdom

* United States

* Vatican City

Frankly, I think the fact that none of them (currently) are from the US is very interesting.

Edited February 24, 2010 by TRexian

[walker 0]

Hi Trexian

Nah not their style and not their target; also note no one of African or Far Eastern extraction that is a ditto for Europeans there would be far more ethnic diversity in either an American or Eurpean team, and the CIA do not like upsetting Arab oil. If it was the CIA it would never have got released by Dubai and in fact Dubai would have been involved and insisted it was carried out out of sight of the CCTV.

No there is only one country and agency that fits the profile Israel and the Mossad.

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 24, 2010 by walker

[TRexian 0]

But Dubai is blaming Mossad. Whoever did it would know that such a response was likely, and that Israel would never confirm nor deny it.

The lack of any USian passports also means that USian authorities aren't being asked to cooperate....

In a leftover from the Cold War, the Frankfurt CIA station is fairly active. I seem to recall links between that station and efforts in Iran, even since the fall of the USSR. Look at the other starting points/destinations.... each one has a US embassy or consulate, I believe (and thus a CIA station). Sure - that could be coincidence - those are the national capitals, or certainly large cities, so there would be alot of traffic to/from those places.

But, if you accept that whoever planned the hit in Dubai would use passports for the "preferred" list, the absence of any US passports is notable.

Edit: oh - on the point of no African-American agents, I think that makes sense from a tactical perspective. Someone like that would generally "stick out."

Edited February 24, 2010 by TRexian

[walker 0]

Hi TRexian

There are several reports where a US passport is alluded to but I am guessing that Israel might not want to up set its prime ally.

American's or Europeans of african and east asian apearance have never struck me as out place, in all my years of travel. Surrpisingly since the wall came down, one of the biggest groups you see around the world are East European and Russian merchant-tourists.

What areas of the world have you traveled to TRexian; on which you base your assesment?

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 25, 2010 by walker

[TRexian 0]

That pdf of the ingress and egress routes doesn't list a single American - unless I misunderstand the nationality under the names.

Regarding the question of race, my assessment is based more on the released videos. I don't recall seeing any dark-skinned individuals. Some "dark," typically mid-east skin tones, but none that I would consider "black."

In areas, like airports, one would see all kinds of races and nationalities, of course. In a high-end, expensive hotel in Dubai, there are certain races that would blend in more than others. For the same reason, I don't recall seeing any typically-Scandinavian looking individuals either. Fair-skin, blue eyes, blond hair (big bosoms... but I digress) ;) would also likely have drawn attention.

It is all about blending in. All those people in that pdf have a "look" that is likely to do that.

[walker 0]

Hi TRexian

As I said the PDF is not complete for the new Irish passport using suspect is not included nether is the Australian passport using suspect Nicole Sandra McCabe

Once again to which countries have you traveled on which to base your: people of African, Blond Scandinavian and Far East Asians stand out assumption? Must have been some damn kooky countries. You see people with those ethnic traits all over the world.

kind regards walker

Edited February 25, 2010 by walker

[Mike84 1]

Hi Trexian

Nah not their style and not their target

You'd think every intelligence service could do targeted killings in whatever style, but since you're such an expert Walker; I feel honoured that you think people like me (israeli's) are somehow superior.

and the CIA do not like upsetting Arab oil.

Of course the Americans do not wanna upset oil countries, they have never done that ever before! (this is sarcasm here yes, if you don't get it, open up a history book)

If it was the CIA it would never have got released by Dubai

Of course Dubai is a country much more loving of Americans than for example Poland, which released documents about secret CIA flights containing prisoners.

Anyhow, I really do think this thread is starting to make you look silly Walker. I'm sure many people view you as a knowledgeable person, as I used to, but your iron will to theorize about these conspiracies make you look like a, well, nutty conspiracy theorist.

[Deadfast 43]

Hi TRexian

Once again to which countries have you traveled on which to base your people of African, Blond Scandinavian and Far East Asians stand out? Must have been some damn kooky countries. You see people with those ethnic traits all over the world.

And again, in which special services have you worked on which you base all your assumptions?

Rexian's arguments can actually be backed up by simple math and logic.

If you have a room composed of 75% by Caucasian males with dark hair, 10% of African males, 10% by Asian males and 5% by blond Caucasian males who do you think will blend in the best?

(The percentages above are mostly just random numbers that form 100%, even if the composition was different the point still stands - if you're trying to stay inconspicuous, the closer you look to Joe Average the better).

[Takko 10]

Hope if its really some kind of inteligence,

that they all get prosecuted

Edited February 24, 2010 by Takko

[Mike84 1]

Mike84, walker is free to say whatever he thinks

and you are as well.

But arent you a guy, whos pride is hurt because

His government seems to be rather incapable?

Anyways, speculations is what this topic is all about.

My pride is not hurt at all. Imho the world is a better place now that a guy who is responsible of killing civilians and soldiers is dead now.

And I wouldn't call Israel incapable of killing terrorists just because some highly interesting Dubai police chief and arab newspapers say the 'juice' did it.

The one government I would call incapable is the one of Dubai for apparently allowing terrorists in to do weapon deals. But of course, no one ever looked at that angle...

[walker 0]

Hi Mike84

Well I am as I said several times just a bod on the forum. This is a forum you are free to dispute anything I or anyone writes. Just as I am free to write it.

I feel I am on fairly solid ground in saying this was a Mossad operation and not a CIA or MI6 one. I think perhaps the majority of the forum think the same. If you wish to dispute it say so; and then we can have that discussion.

I presume what you put forward as the "nutty conspiracy theorist" idea is that I point out the following facts.

1) The Target was Dieing of Cancer, and that was from the Prewritten Original Obituary report from his former organisation (not the organisation that was current at the time of his death) and that they past on that information within 24 hours of the report of his death and before his new organisation could counter it and prevent the fact leaking into the news:

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=255640

2) That I also point out he booked his ticket over the internet in his own name knowing it would show up on Mossads surveilance and as was reported by the Dubai Police traveled on his own passport:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,587044,00.html?test=latestnews

Also reported in the Jeurusalem Post and various other Israeli News papers, as well as the Western media and Gulf news papers:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLR_enGB247GB247&ei=lLCFS9O4KJXNjAfG-sGKAg&sa=X&oi=spellfullpage&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=2&ved=0CAYQvwUoAQ&&q=%22mahmoud+al-mabhouh%22+booked+ticket+online&spell=1

3) Most of those also point out he talked to his familiy in Gaza about the trip over the phone as does this one from the UAE.

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100131/FOREIGN/701309828/1002

5) That he had arraged for his wife to phone him at that hotel at a specific time as was reported by the Dubai Police as being the trigger for the hotel staff to break in to his hotel.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1146911.html

6) That in all the videos, this experienced agent of Hamas with three previous atempts on his life and suposedly training in counter surveilance from nation states; the target employed no counter survelance what so ever:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=dubaisesslon&annotation_id=annotation_425824 An Asside Even when the tennis stars almost bump into him at the lift, he just ignores them and that despite the member of staff with him thinking they are acting odd (I get that from her body language also the attempt to charm her on the way down I willing to accept you will dismiss that)

7) The target also traveled without his usual bodyguards, depite at least three previous attempts to assasinate him by Israel:

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100131/FOREIGN/701309828/1002

And from all that I place for everyone to see Scerario B)

Mahmoud al-Mabhouh Was a worm on a hook

A man dieing of cancer looking for one last hurrah against his sworn enemy. The bait in a well thought out plan to gather intelligence and spring a strategic level trap on The Mossad.

....

Scenario B)

The possibility that a party inimical to Israel lured Mossad into attacking an already dieing man looking for that thing Muslim Jihadis look for a "martyrs death" silly numbers of inexperienced virgins crap etc. They decide to lay the trap in the most CCTV-ed country in the world. This means they get a world class Police service from a Non Radical and there for trust worthy nation to do most of the observation for them. They decide the time and place to conduct the operation. They give Mossad a short time window this makes spotting the incoming agents easier. They have past Mossad operations to go on.

They encapsulate the Mossad inputs, provide a source of the targets movements, probably supply additional information to cement the sources status. One or more of the Palestinian Mossad assets who were caught or any Palestinian asset who was not caught could easily be a double agent who is feeding Mossad the scent while identifying the inbound agents. Heck source might be genuine but being fed they information, that is the simplest and does not require the source to lie. Why the source could even be electronic, a discovered one or one allowed to be found.

They place a cordon round the Mossad. Perhaps with Dubai's help? Motivation for Dubai is they do not like Mossad's targeted killings. Those observing in Dubai are not doing anything suspicious or illegal they are just gathering the evidence, it is completely passive, so it does not need Dubai's active support and is unlikely to raise their ire. They just note which CCTV cameras spot each of the Mossad agents and at what time. I would look to see if any of the CCTV at any of the locations cameras got a recent free service and upgrade.

The level of sophistication is considerably lower than the alternative of spying and conducting operations within Israel. The watchers do not have to observe tightly the whole time unlike Mossad surveillance team. In the main they just note which CCTV camera they have just passed. About six agents per major hotel plus a couple at the target hotel and an airport team possibly using airport and or passport staff.

Mossad has started to believe its own myths so they will not think they are under observation if they are after the target and only the target matters they will be focused inwardly toward the target. In this way they encapsulate the Mossad team and its activities.

They let them carry out their operation.

And slowly start to feed Dubai police the answers

The Results

In both scenarios the results are the same:

Tactical

Mossad goes home and congratulates them selves. The target is dead they got away with it all Israelis out of the country. Sure some Palestinian assets got caught but they don't count.

A Tactical Victory!

Strategy

The film comes out,

i) All the agents even the ones not identified by Dubai police are now useless, you cannot be sure the other side has not got those identities that are not named.

ii) Dubai is turned against Israel

iii) Mossads habit of cloning passports from not unfriendly nations has a long history and was a predictable aspect. 25 year ago it caused a big problem when UK passports were used and Israel was forced to promise not to do it any more, Ditto the poison in the ear Canadian passports, and the New Zealand passports. Israeli Governments have fallen in the past as a result of less than this. IMHO this time it is worse as several nations are affected at the same time.

iv) Mossads targeted killings operation gets called into question and probably put on hold.

v) If we are talking scenario A), the one described by Rock, then Mossad's opposition are using Mossads own ambiguity strategy against them, a truly sophisticated, dare I say brilliant stratagem. I dont think strategy A) is likely myself but it is a possibility.

vi) Mossad and Israel get castigated by the whole world, Ambassadors get quizzed and carpeted.

vii) Israel suffers sanctions and costs at the hands of formerly friendly nations.

vii) Mossads image is tarnished. Its public trust decreased. Probaly takes a knock to its morale and spends time writing reports and reviews trying to find out what went wrong. Trust in assets is knocked and questioned.

ix) Hamas gets a martyr from a man who was dieing anyway

A Strategic Failure...

That is the scenario that best fits the facts and the results.

Kind Regards walker

Edited February 25, 2010 by walker

[eble 3]

more faked passports have turned up, if this was a hit from a country my god they used a lot of people.

Surely it's not good to have all these pictures floating about, if these poeple spent years of training for what... ok mission done etc but have they ruined all future missions for these agents?

Maybe some were trainees for a 1 mission hit etc.... who knows

If it was Israel I wouldn't expect anything other than the normal public telling off, no sanctions etc will follow.

The world is currently in the 'terrorism mode' any country that has a problem just calls them terrorists and the rest of the world goes ok fair enough.

The definition of terrorism is hard enough to work out let alone whether todays terrorist turns out to be tomorrows freedom fighter.

Take for example the Taliban, are the terrorists or freedom fighters

Edited February 25, 2010 by Eble

[TRexian 0]

@ walker-

First, as you seem preoccupied with my comments about race, let me be clear: IMHO "race" in the modern era is almost a meaningless word. It can only be understood in relative terms. Person x is darker skinned than person y. Person a is from country b, which has relatively more people of lighter skin than country c.

Second, having said that, the physical differences between people within certain regions are undeniable. There can be a wide range - like in the US, generally - but in much of the world, the range is quite narrow. In any locality, like a town, or neighborhood of a large city, the range can be very narrow indeed.

Third, my traveling experiences are not particularly germane to my point. ;) However, I have been blessed with many wonderful experiences with many different cultures in my life. I reflect immediately on my sporting experiences, where several times, I have been the only person with my skin color on a team. :) I was certainly noticed for it! Likewise, I have been on teams that only had one person of a different skin color or physical feature, and he was noticed for it.

Finally, getting back to my point, which Deadfast indeed elaborated on, it is not so much about the features of people milling about in public. It is about the features of that hit team. That team would've really been the wrong choice to accomplish this kind of hit (requiring significant public interaction) in places like Cambodia, Angola, or probably even Afghanistan. On an individual basis, sure they could wander through airports or hotels in those places and not leave an impression. But, in the context of where the interactions occurred in this case, this team's physical characteristics were appropriate to blend in with the crowds.

Anyway, looking forward to more links that you find. Oh, and in the interest of politeness, I think it only fair that you answer the question you posed to me concerning world travels, as you obviously consider that to be important. ;)