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dialektiikka

Commercial Mod tool kit would be nice

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The following mini essay is a result of too much coffee and a lot of thinking during the past few months. The ideas contained have been floating around my skull in a form or other since I originally played OFP in 2002. Feel free to discuss, critisize, add to etc.

PLEASE, if a thread develops, do not clutter with posts consisting just of "+1" or "Meh". Lets try and do some brainstorming and discussion :)

Why BIS should consider selling a professional set of modding tools for ArmA

The greatness of ArmA series lies in the mod tools that BIS has provided, free of charge. These enable and power the modding/addon community we all know and love.

However, the free tools have lots of limitations, too. Eg. mapmaking is very time consuming, as such a simple-seeming thing as road laying does take months for the avarage user-made map.

These limitations are understandable to a point, the tools being free etc. However, they set back the modding community to the point, that many otherwise talented people get fed up with ArmA modding and leave for greener pastures. This, IMO is a serious mistake from BIS, as they should not alienate the few users who are largely responsible for the vitality of the series.

After thinking this a long time, I think I've come to a solution, which would be beneficial both for BIS and ArmA players.

That is, the release of professional modding tools as a separate software kit. The game should still be shipped with a similar set as is available currently, as this would represent a "light version" for beginners.

I think that such a professional tool kit should approach the level of tools available for VBS2 customers, at least in some parts. It should contain the following:

-Good documentation for the software tools and tutorials on their use.

-Advanced map making software (sort of "Visitor+").

-Advanced object creating/importing software (sort of "Oxygen+").

-Animation tool for creating/importing custom animations.

-Plugins for the most common 3D modelling and texture making software

-Script library with examples.

-AI editing tool.

-Open 3D object library for a large selection of existing ArmA units.

-Advanced version of the current mission editor, with fully enabled real 3D editing mode.

-A post-mission evaluation tool (maybe not quite as detailed as the VBS version, though).

It would, naturally, not include any kind of 3D modelling or texture making software, as these would be the responsibility of the customer to accuire separately.

Releasing such tools would ofcourse relinquish a lot of control from BIS to the modders. I don't see this as a bad thing, as that would enable BIS staff to use more time for the creating of stabler and bug free code, more advanced features for future releases (dare I say, for Gaia Mission? :)) and other important base stuff.

Making such a tool kit available might also well cause a growth in the customer base of ArmA series. If it were easier to mod the game, it could be used for a lot of other things besides a military simulator. I'm mainly thinking it as a tool for Cultural Heritage Management companies, museums and other centres of research and education (who would surely have to licence the use of RealVirtuality engine from BIS, bringing in more cash), but that is entirely another story to be told another day ;).

IMO, such a complex and powerful software package would by necessity cost more than a copy of ArmA game disc itself. However, as it would not be needed to play the game or to use any of the extra content made with it, it wouldn't be necessary for everybody to buy. Only those customers how felt the need to get hold of it would buy it, alltough I'm sure that it would still sell nicely and bring in an increase in mod making.

Alltough I have to admit that I'm incapable of estimating the value of any software professionally, I'd say the retail price of such a software kit could (and should, to make it commercially viable to BIS) range from a minimum of 150 € to several hundred €. I am avare that the VBS costs around $1500 per licence. While such a price tag is not uncommon for a serious game, I think it would be too expencive even to a dedicated hobbyist.

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without commenting in detail, this is what would happen:

1. most addons/mods if not all would be commercial as well. That means you, the average user, would need to pay for my mod, in order for me to get at least part of my money back on the software.

2. The C_SDK would be spread amongst the users, free of charge,

3. The addons i require to pay for, would be spread after the first user would pay for it, so in the end i would just give up altogether

Do you actually think one would actually acquire such sdk, which he would be using to create additional content for this community, at the expense of his free time and account balance? No one wouldor at least I know i'd never.

Most of the user here, at least the modellers, are using professional modelling tools (which they are using for work, etc etc), that have already cost in the range of 600-3000eus. BUT, they are earning money with it, so it pays back in 1-2 years range. SO using it for A2, it is just bonus for this community.

So, where is the gain?

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All free or all with charge, nothing in between.

People with the lite tools would give up (eg Icebreakr)

because others can do the same with less dedication.

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I think that this is a very good idea, many people, particularly those who are older, are willing to spend money on their hobby with no thought of financial return. For the people who at the moment spend hours a week for weeks on end building an addon with no posibility of financial gain it is a hobby ( or a mental illness:) ).

I'm also involved in the old style pen and paper role playing game Harn and several of the people who produce fan material for it have purchased fonts and pay a professional artist to produce illistrations that they can include in the items that they then give away for free. It wouldn't suprise me if the same would happen for Arma if there was the option of purchasing the tools. Maybe BIS should enquire of the modding community to guage a level of interest and the price that people would find acceptable. To avoid too much noise in a forum topic they could contact some of the big names directly and get an idea of interest from them.

From my point of view I have made no mods and have only the vaguest idea on how to make them, but I would like to be able to and am willing to pay for software and good detailed information on how to do it. For me the time saved between that and trawling the net would be worth the cost. Like many older people with faimilies, money I have, time is in short supply.

Scott

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Endless arguing and fighting is all I see resulting from such a thing.

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Some really good comments here. I'll try to debate them to best of my humble ability:):

1. most addons/mods if not all would be commercial as well. That means you, the average user, would need to pay for my mod, in order for me to get at least part of my money back on the software.

I really don't think BIS would allow cashing with SDK made stuff, as they don't allow it currently. Then again, even if they allowed for special licences, I wouldn't have trouble with micro payments or voluntary donations for pro quality addons :)

2. The C_SDK would be spread amongst the users, free of charge

This would probably happen, unfortunately. However, there would still be people who would pay legally. I don't think this would much differ from the current situation.

3. The addons i require to pay for, would be spread after the first user would pay for it, so in the end i would just give up altogether

This problem will allways be around, unfortunately. In modding scene the damage may be minimized by donations, micro-payments and ransom payment systems.

Do you actually think one would actually acquire such sdk, which he would be using to create additional content for this community, at the expense of his free time and account balance?

To put it shortly: Yes, I do :) I know people who have spent serious time and money for buying 3D modelling software and training courses, just to be able to model and distribute things as a hobby. I'm willing to do such a thing, myself <sound of loose screws falling> :D

using it for A2, it is just bonus for this community.

That it is. However, people do things for different reasons. One big motive for modders is the LWID factor (Look What I Did), which I noted mainly in peoplewho have been in the scene for a long time. And which I personally find really :cool:

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I agree with pufu. For me as a addonmaker it just doesnt seem useful, and can only increase piracy and further bickering within the community.

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@Takko: I don't think talented people would give up just because of a price tag on the tools they want. Some would, some not. Also, being able to buy the tools will not make somebody into a modder guru.

People with beginner skill & mediocre talent (myself included :rolleyes:) will produce mediocre addons no matter what. People with real skill and talent allready produce Great Things. Imagine what they would be able to do with some professional tools.

@Soul_Assassin: As I said, it's a sad reality that some people will allways pirate software. Still, I'm sure many would pay for it too, and I suspect that a majority of these would be the ones with skill to make something ArmA players would actually bother to download.

We can never be sure, ofcourse. It may well be that not all ArmA addons are created with legal 3D modelling software or on legally purchased copies of ArmAII. I hope this is not the casewith the majority, though. I can't see how having a better SDK available would change that too much.

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Bottom line, most people will not bother purchasing the tools. They already invest their time and creativity on a game that couldn't survive without them. Ask them to pay for the privilege of investing their time and to the benefit of many who don't appreciate it... bye bye mod community.

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People with beginner skill & mediocre talent (myself included :rolleyes:) will produce mediocre addons no matter what. People with real skill and talent allready produce Great Things. Imagine what they would be able to do with some professional tools.

The quality of the tools will make no difference. From a modelling/ texture stand point there is nothing that BIS could add to make the end result of non profesional addons any better. I can do anything i want to right now outside of BIS's tools and simply import new stuff in. The only thing i would like to see is a better suite for animation but i wouldn't pay for it.

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@anfiach: Aren't people allready paying for making addons by getting hold of 3DMax & Photoshop? But yeah... You do have a point there :)

@Aeneas: So, just getting the job done quicker wouldn't be worth the extra cash either. A good point. BTW what kinds of game specific modding tools would you be willing to pay for, if any?

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can i get some of your background on modding exactly? I'm not trying to be rude but i'd like to know exactly what you know. Currently i can work entirely outside the BIS tools with photoshop and max and import things in. If necessary i could also use free alternatives but O2 is a very efficient modelling system. I'm not really sure if anyone gave me "professional tools" it would make my life any easier than using Photoshop (or GIMP as a free alternative) and O2....this is coming from someone who has done this professionally.

The whole point of building a community is giving them something for free which allows them to produce a product for free which in turn adds more content. Which acts as free advertising (an incentive to buy the game) and also helps grow any games popularity and branding.

If you would like and again i'm not meaning to sound rude but i can give you a complete workflow diagram to show you estimated times it takes to complete a given project. The tools you use aren't really an issue.

The only thing BIS could improve is adding the functionality for the map makers that they putting into VBS2 (see icebreakr). As for making people pay again I ask why...what could BIS possibly hope to acheive. I'm not sure a cost/benefit analysis would result in showing any kind of profit for such an endevour.

little edit:

I was thinking about this. If BIS was to develop a set of pro mod tools. Even if they just improved what they had now. they would

a) have to pay a team to provide such a service.

b) they would have to register their product and pay taxes on any profit they made.

c) market it to a very niche consumer base. I mean honestly how many people to you think would buy a set of pro tools (which would be even more complicated than the ones they already have now, which would actually slow down the process). In reality you are lookin at between 1-5% (this is a very generous estimate) of the arma2 community who actually have any idea how to mod for the game. On top of that their tools would only work with BIS games so it's not like they could even market it to the modding community worldwide. the profit from the tools would have to outweigh the cost of salary and on going support for the tools provided by the team mentioned in (a).

d) they would be creating a community divide of the haves and have nots.

e) depending on certain countries and how they released the software they would be at a risk of people being able to sell the content they made using the BIS tools. This would create two problems. Firstly people simply wouldn't pay for an extra unit unless (like with the steam sales) you sold them for .50c a pop. Which, knowing a great many modders, who put 100+ hours into work they would not do. The prices would be more like $20 per addon, go check turbo squid.

Because of this people just wouldn't mod using the "pro" tools. Which would lead to people returning to the free addons. Unless of course you could only access the tools by paying for them. In which case 99% of modders would have no interest in the community and leave. I know i would.

This is just my 2 cents but i have some experience in these areas. As i said before if you can give me a specific example of a change BIS could make to their tools that would make them worthwhile paying for...to make them quicker. Give me something concrete that would make say modelling in O2 quicker...then i'd pay for it. Provided of course it was a revolutionary step that i couldn't do with something i can get for free elsewhere.

Edited by Aeneas2020

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Mmm...the main trouble with BIS tools/modding is the lack of decent documentation and the incredibly time consuming reverse engineering. I've spent so many hours searching forums / wikis and testing the so called "commented config"....that i understand now that "commented" is in fact ironic...

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Hi there.

Don`t think that better tools for Payment will bring anything.There are great free Alternatives in every Direction.With Blender u have a fantastic tool,Gimp or Paint.NET are as good as PS,there are tools for unwrapping,for the tipping part like Notepad++,

u can create Music and edit Voices and all u want.

Island making needs endless time,i agree totally but i don`t think the BI-Island makers could done it in half the time.

When u use a big very popular tool like 3dsMax u have to spend the same time for learning how to like for Oxigen,i tested a 30 day trial and it was not easier.

Next is:For wich people should it be? Don`t think ANY Company in the world will bring an big extra package what means 1000`s hours of programming for what? 100 - 300 People?

I´m so happy that there are solutions to do what u want!So happy that there are other people who spent their time with this game and the big goal is no High-Score or whatever but to grow the Game with fantastic stuff.

ArmA surely have weak spots but the possibly to development is none.

sorry for my english!

Edited by Baraka

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can i get some of your background on modding exactly?

No problem, as I should have done that in the first post to begin with :)

I've done some graphics & sound replacements to a few games ages before OFP, but don't really consider that modding anymore...

I have basic training in 3dMax, Autocad and digital map making, mainly for archaeological & architectural purposes. These give me some very basic skills, which aren't too well aplicable to ArmAII stuff. In other words, my modding skills are really rudimentary.

I'm still learning to do proper 3D and can barely use Visitor & Oxygen. My biggest triumph in RealVirtuality so far has been modelling toy-like "car" for OFP from some of the tutorials that came out in '02 (didn't get it properly configured, mind) :p. I can do basic texturing in Photoshop, too, but am not exactly a PS guru.

My current (re-)learnin of 3D modelling is mainly hampered by the lack of access to licensed 3DMax, so I'm scraping by with free stuff (don't want to get the goods the dirty way :)).

You provide some pretty heavy (and well thought out) "against" arguments there :). Especially a, b and e. And yeah, it's a very small niche, I'm afraid, even with a some keen interest outside the gamer scene. Hopefully that interest grows enough in the near future for BIS to consider a "civilian version", ie. something between ArmAII and VBS2.

I'm still hoping that BIS will consider developing the SDK in some form. Perhaps I'm too pessimistic in thinking they won't be willing do it for free :D.

A workflow diagram of modelling times would be great, thanks! Also any notes on actual modding procedures will surely be gladly received by other forum members, too.

---------- Post added at 10:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 PM ----------

Mmm...the main trouble with BIS tools/modding is the lack of decent documentation and the incredibly time consuming reverse engineering. I've spent so many hours searching forums / wikis and testing the so called "commented config"....that i understand now that "commented" is in fact ironic...

Heh, my thoughts, exactly... Perhaps a better solution instead of an improved SDK would be for BIS to provide a detailed official documenting guide?

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Don't get me wrong mate I think if BIS wanted to market their engine for other games devs i'd be all for it! i just don't think with the current small community it would be worthwhile for them financially. No hard feelings :)

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No hard feelings :)

None felt :) The reason I started this thread was because I've been strugling with these questions for a while. Sometimes you need to hear from other people when in doubt of your own ideas.

The "civilian version" of VBS I visioned in the previous post is something I now am sure would be nice, but fortunately not a mandatory thing. Since OFP I've had this idea in my head that RealVirtuality is currently the best and most cost effective platform for making virtual presentations for museums and archaeological research (I even wrote a university paper on this way back).

To sum: yes, it'd be nice to have some things streamlined (roads in map making, animations), but rather in free updates than commercial ones. Better documenting would also be the way to go. If ArmAII is to be used in creating a, say historical landscape, the lenghty time for modelling has to be taken to account in planning such a project.

Good thing that most Virtual Reality models of archaeological sites are A) small in geographical size and B) don't need to contain roads that are drivable in-game. And if they do, maybe several volunteer research assistants could be used to set up the roads...

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