Javelin & Co.: Warfare/CTI some weapons/units should be more expensive or restricted

[oxmox 73]

After reading some webpages about modern infantry anti tank systems, I did find also some informations about the costs of such systems inclusive the missiles.

The Javelin System is around at 200.000 $ and one missile only alone is around 100.000 $. Such infos gives you some thought about the current ingame costs (cti/warfare) which are in my opinion too low if you think about the price and that such systems are not used by many soldiers in a firefight.

http://www.defensereview.com/spike-shoulder-launched-fire-and-forget-guided-missile-kills-fast-moving-threats/

I would rethink the current CTI/Warfare mod if some units can be used so easy with really almost no investment. Some of the units or weapon systems should just belong to really expensive gear which cant be just bought when you like it.

I think the current balance between units and gear aswell vehicles is not really balanced at all and should get some fixes. It is possible to buy whole infantry squads where each unit is with a javelin or other powerfull fire n forget weapons equipped, i think this should change for a better gameplay. The weight of such a system i.e. Javelin is almost 25kg with one missile, still players can equip all kind of gear and are capable to run around which seems unrealistic not to mention that the system needs time to setup.

"The javeline is so heavy that few were fired by any light infantry in the current war." Actually, so few were fired because so few suitable targets presented themselves. The Javelin is an expensive weapon without any substitute. The release criteria for a Javelin, at least in our battalion, is very specific. As for the weight, you are talking about a total system weight of just over 49lbs. Each missile weighs in at about 26lbs and the CLU is right at 14lbs(22lbs if you are using the extended life batteries). A Javelin team is a three-man team. That means that each member of the team is carrying less weight than the average member of the MG team. Don't believe everything you read on sites like "combat reform" as most of the time the author has an axe to grind."

Edited January 4, 2010 by oxmox

[janster01 1]

No shit, I have a post about this exact thing myself.

Its ruining warfare by having hardware being so bloody cheap, people are tossing M1's planes and choppers about like its poptarts.

I have asked Benny to look into it, as he has the most prolifient warfare mod atm, and he said he'd think about it atleast :)

Btw, in ACE 2 you can't run around with these weapons, you will pass out from exhaustion..so thats atleast something.

I dream of a warfare where money is made ONLY from kills/captures, basic infantry is dirt cheap (ak + rpg ) and if you wanna play with the good stuff, you gotta pay.

I think this will make it a far more intense and rewarding experience.

At the moment its a disgrace that Arma 2, THE most realistic FPS out there, has a game mode that is so gamey it hurts. BIS should maybe help out here too imho.

Edited January 6, 2010 by janster01

[galzohar 31]

Warefare needs a LOT more balancing than just the weapons. Unfortunately, it's never actually played in a competitive manner in order to actually get some real balancing into it.

[janster01 1]

Its a start..

Just played another round of M1 tanks and planes...saw maybe 3 inf total.

[KNac 10]

Something you can do (apoart of using ACE2 for the weight issue, even tho it doesn't completlly model the weight as is seen by that quote) to start with is disable the 'gear respawn' in the parameters, later in the game it won't make any difference, but at least at the beginning you won't see everyone and his mother running with the best AT assets every time.

About prices, you can easilly modify Warfare BE (or any other edition) with new prices, if you don't know how, let's start a serious discussion or list and I can do it for you, if you want.

[-Shifty- 10]

No shit, I have a post about this exact thing myself.

Its ruining warfare by having hardware being so bloody cheap, people are tossing M1's planes and choppers about like its poptarts.

I have asked Benny to look into it, as he has the most prolifient warfare mod atm, and he said he'd think about it atleast :)

Btw, in ACE 2 you can't run around with these weapons, you will pass out from exhaustion..so thats atleast something.

I dream of a warfare where money is made ONLY from kills/captures, basic infantry is dirt cheap (ak + rpg ) and if you wanna play with the good stuff, you gotta pay.

I think this will make it a far more intense and rewarding experience.

At the moment its a disgrace that Arma 2, THE most realistic FPS out there, has a game mode that is so gamey it hurts. BIS should maybe help out here too imho.

The gameplay needs a massive change if it's to have such prices. Such as the effectiveness of enemy AI. It takes 15'000 bullets to kill one man (well in Vietnam it did). What ever happened to long fire fights? In ArmA 2 things suck really bad.

I need to DL ACE2 apparently...

[oxmox 73]

You should try this SLX mod like i mentioned in the other thread, it offers really different feeling of firefights i.e. more suppression fire and less super accurate shots...not perfect but its still beta and I hope after release we will see it online aswell.

@Kanac, well hope we will see some changes if it is really possible to do it if we talk about the multiple use of powerfull weapons within a squad and the too low prices. Since so many server are using the same warfare mod currently i.e. benny cti mod it would be nice to see an alternative here. Not sure if the modder read this thread and what they think about such suggestions. For a simulation it is still a bit too gamey..yeah :P. Tanks/armored vehicles, air units and so on should be killable of course, but they should also be more feared maybe without the chance to take them down that easy cause powerfull weapons are available for too many ground units. I still wonder aswell why so many server run the game in kadett mode aswell since the game should be some kind of simulation.

Edited January 6, 2010 by oxmox

[janster01 1]

If there was less M1's and apaches and t-90's on the field, and more infantery, cheap vehicles and stuff, the I think we'd be closer to 'war' than we are now. If I can get my hands on a mod that does this, I will host it too.

[-Shifty- 10]

Well without proper teamwork it's impossible. Because some idiot is going to charge a town with your last M1A2 and get it SPG9ed to hell and back.

That isn't a problem in warfare.

The only problem is the AI are Gods, they can see everything and they never miss.

[oxmox 73]

If there was less M1's and apaches and t-90's on the field, and more infantery, cheap vehicles and stuff, the I think we'd be closer to 'war' than we are now. If I can get my hands on a mod that does this, I will host it too.

Maybe it is not that hard to do it to change already existing mods i.e. warfare or whatever, its a lot about the bravery of server owners and the acceptance of the players aswell if you think about that most servers have the same map, same mods and even same ingame settings. I mean if you guys like warfare for example, its almost hard to not find any server which doesnt offer the same Island, the same Kadett settings, all with AI and so on...

Edited January 7, 2010 by oxmox

[janster01 1]

Well then.

Been giving it some thought.

So here is my idea, which is open for suggestions!

Warfare Commander.

You are the squadleader, your aim is to lead more than it is to be a particular class. (Tempted to make you a medic tho cause of the pain it is to use this class)

Thus I in the first version I'd like to toss anything sniperish on the garbage pile, expect for moderate optics that can be fitted to assault weapons.

You can have snipers as part of your squad tho.(But I'd like to see this implemented without squadleader shooting them for the weapons)

The focus is on infantry, but not just limited to this, I belive mobile inf, in vehicles and apc's fit nicely on the battlefield, and if you do well, you can maybe hire a tank or plane, but these are to be expensive addons. In return, advanced missile weapons are expensive aswell, and an M1 on the field will be far more a threat than today.

Now, the key here is intensity, we want more troops in the field, and viscious firefights, so we aim at the 300 meter mark for tactical engagements. In addition to this, we want no more AI in towns, except perhaps a small squad to stop ninja takeovers, but even that is the responsibility of the players to attack and defend properly.

Secondly, we need a better way to get infantry to the front, and here is where I wonder if its possible to buy a vehicle that comes with a platoon, just like a tank comes with crew. Being able to buy a ready to go platoon + vehicle(truck/humwee/etc) would make it far more simpler to request reinforcements to the frontlines.

Either this or a possible ability to recruit your troops from certain APC/trucks, making them spawnpoints.

Now pricing, this is a difficult point, but in general basic inf + rpg should be available quick and cheap, tanks and advanced infantry/helos etc is not. This means than we can also base some more teamwork around giving money to key people.

Lastly, the money, I prefere if the 'ticks' would be reduced massivly, and that money is almost solely gained from actions in the field, this would reduce afk'ers and make people have to work to get the goods.

A secondary problem is lethality on the battlefield, the AI squads are way to effective, but I don't know enough about modding to know what to do here. I know that terrain is still very flat in Arma, leaving squads very open even in dense woods unlike the real thing, so there is those concerns too.

Last words, if we could pull something like this off, I belive what we want is the illusion of war, the more dirty close up version of the current hi-tech mess we got now, with far more troops in the field, instead of 1 guy and his jet playing whack-a-mole with the rest of us.

I really hope this can be done, as the current form of Warfare is in my eyes, and others I've spoken to a direct disgrace to Arma 2. Our top online activity is such a gamey gamey thing, and a beyond visual range feast, its hardly any fun for anyone expect a fair few.

Thank you

Janster

[oxmox 73]

Well, a good start would be at least to give up KADETT mode which 99% of the server offer, this is strange if you have virtual aim cross and 3rd person view in a sim game.

[oxmox 73]

Secondly, we need a better way to get infantry to the front

First, after playing this game more and more i come to the conclusion that the game isnt a simulation of units.

It is not a flight sim, not a vehicle sim and not a weapon sim, b u t.....it is a simulation of engagements with combined arms and arcade standards. So some of the current mods and probably more in the future will maybe change some things here, which could include changes of ideas in additional we discuss about here.

When it comes to units, transport and "class" options I think there could be some improvements aswell, this is maybe also possible with some adjustments.

- each soldier type would have control about specific units/gear. Which means, a tank soldat is specialized for driving tanks but should be not able to be a sniper, a specialist for infantry anti tank systems and so on...

It would avoid the following example: You spawn an infantry unit with a sniper rifle aswell a highly specialized anti tank/anti air infantry system whereas you are able to drive the best tank or air unit.

In other words each soldier type has to play what he is supposed to do and has only basic gear (i.e. tanker has mp5 only) if he exits his specialized vehicle/gear/unit. Same could be for pilots which are specialzed for air combat or pure Infantry players which are limited to the use of jeeps or very light vehicles wheras infantry units have their own choice of weapons.

That would mean the rambo style would play a less important role, the simulation would benefit aswell the gameplay it would go even more to the direction of a sim than arcade gameplay. The player has to adjust to the situation and is not capable to control every situation like in real life.

Maybe this idea to alone would be worth to discuss in a new thread but i think its probably a new idea to discuss about, hope more player would join here to express their ideas and how they feel about the current gameplay.

Edited January 8, 2010 by oxmox

[janster01 1]

Getting rid of the ludicrous amount of snipers would be a good thing too. They are rare and expensive to boot(training + weapons)

I'm going to have to aim for something simple at first, a modification of Benny's mod would be the best bet, cause anything more ambitious and it will require massive recoding.

Certainly combined arms is what we aim for, trucks and mobile units are cheap and plentiful, and should be represented, but M1 tanks and chopper are not.

The price diffidence is truly staggering to be honest, and should be reflected.

It also depends on the intensity of the conflict you want to picture, there is a great deal of difference between the war in Afghanistan and Chechnya .