Mid east

[Bart.Jan 0]

To Longinius :

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Another example are police snipers. If they have "green" they are allowed to shoot. They can accidentally shoot someone else they are ordered,shoot someone that doing some suspect moves and they can shoot even surrending suspect - it's risk of their profession - it doesn't do them criminals. (by word can I mean it can happened,not they can decide). Snipers have big trouble if they shoot somebody without permision to fire ("green")."

Yes, shooting a surrendering suspect is a crime. Shooting a innocent bystander is not a crime but it will likely be the end of their careers, or atleast a noticable setback.<span id='postcolor'>

To shoot surrending suspect is not crime when sniper wasn't ordered to cease fire. If someone didn't order stop, sniper don't know what is going there and he continues to do his job - he waits for right moment and then shots. If he recognize surrending suspect he can radio for instructions but there can be situation he can not connect with his superior or he doesn't recognize clearly suspect's proceeding.Then it's his own decision - he must use his sense for his job.

But anyway you are right - it can be a big obstacle in his career.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...They has order try to not kill but no don't kill at all cost."

Yes, exactly what I said. This means they do not have the right to shoot and kill just anyone who happens to strole along, refusing to do as they are told.<span id='postcolor'>

Soldier on sentry have not right to do it, but if he can,he can do it. Mostly there is only one witness of his acting - he himself (it's not moral but it's true).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Human rights are also against capitol punishments and people getting convicted without a fair trial. This also applies to terrorists. You cannot execute anyone you want just because you feel like it. Commanding Officers are not above the law.<span id='postcolor'>

There is law in peace and there is war-law that is strictly different. Commander can order execution of terrorist because he has right to do it."Fair" trial includes him and,as I know, 2 other officers (in some circumstances he can be alone). (civilians and soldiers are prisoners of war - terrorists have no status)

There are several declarations too. But war itself is big deterioration of human rights. I'm not finding anything human in war-law. (laws for peacekeeping operations are like laws in peacetime).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Have you done any military or law enforcement service? If so, where?<span id='postcolor'>

I'm serving as soldier in Czech Armed Forces for 6 years.

(I don't abet soldiers to think like I'm thinking. I'm posting only my opinions and my ways I'll use if I'll be in such situation. - My explanation of laws is not same as official one.)

[Bart.Jan 0]

^ sorry posted 2nd time

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hilandor @ April 11 2002,20:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yes this topic deserves pinning for its sheer size, and lack of flaming<span id='postcolor'>

Yep, and since Sharon has announced that the Israeli offensive will continue for 3 more (I heard this on the news earlier today, but has not heared it again) weeks it will probably continue to be used well....

BTW Please fix the search engine.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Palestine will look like a swiss cheese afterwards.

Everything be basically ruined. I dont think the Israeli will leave any stone on top of the other (a terorist could hide between)

Can you imagine an attractive slogan how to attract tourists to make a trip to palestine?

[scout 0]

here's some data i recieved from the field:

1. out of 180 houses searched in Jenin 120 contained rifles, explosives, det-belts, etc.

2. 5 tons of HE were used in the single event in Jenin.

3. Hizbulla operatives were sighted and some may have been caught in the last surrender in Jenin.

4. more then 3 tons of He were collected from Jenin alone.

5. a female suicide bomber was caught on her way to israel, she tried to hide the Det-belt on her stomach and posed as a pregnant woman.

6. more then 15 terrorists were caught while posing to UN workers.

7. the bombing in the bus was done by a terrorist coming from qalkilya AFTER IDF had evacuated.

8. in the time of the "candle light intervew" by Arafat, Ramallah enjoyed full electric power (the israeli electrical company provides electricity for the west bank).

more to come

[Major Fubar 0]

So the rules of war say that "terrorists" don't deserve the same human rights as soldiers or civilians...fine.

Except since September 11 the word terrorist is thrown around with reckless abandon in regards to many groups and individuals.

I know you gave the (Czech?) military definition of terrorist in an earlier post, but it still sounded fairly vague, basically anyone with a weapon not in uniform... And then there is the question of "suspected terrorists". No disrespect to the military, but who is an army Officer to decide someone's guilt or innocence, especially if he is prejudiced by emotion? This is for a proper jury.

Anyway, if those are the rules as they stand, then sorry, I can't morally agree with them. Terrorists deserve to be brought to justice, and executed if their crimes are sufficient, but not on a battleline without a trial, sorry, that's how I feel. It just opens up too much chance of innocent people being executed for the sake of revenge or expediency.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 12 2002,00:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">here's some data i recieved from the field:

1. out of 180 houses searched in Jenin 120 contained rifles, explosives, det-belts, etc.

2. 5 tons of HE were used in the single event in Jenin.

3. Hizbulla operatives were sighted and some may have been caught in the last surrender in Jenin.

4. more then 3 tons of He were collected from Jenin alone.

5. a female suicide bomber was caught on her way to israel, she tried to hide the Det-belt on her stomach and posed as a pregnant woman.

6. more then 15 terrorists were caught while posing to UN workers.

7. the bombing in the bus was done by a terrorist coming from qalkilya AFTER IDF had evacuated.

8. in the time of the "candle light intervew" by Arafat, Ramallah enjoyed full electric power (the israeli electrical company provides electricity for the west bank).

more to come<span id='postcolor'>

Um, any stats on Palestinian civvies and innocents killed? One sided facts don't really tell the full story, do they?

And for the record can I state I'm not pro-Palestian (or anti-Israeli for that matter), but I just don't like the skewed bias much of the media seems to show. As far as I'm concerned, both sides are as bad as each other.

I've got an idea, since the Palestinians are using terrorist tactics primarily because they dont have the military power and equipment to match Israel, how about we ship them some tanks and attack choppers, as long as they promise no more suicide bombings?

[scout 0]

to major Fubar:

if u want to ship wepons to the PA ur accepting the possibility that the west bank will be reoccupied in the the war that'll come immidiatly behind that.

and that the battles will hit scores of civvies because thats where the battles will be.

it'll be a blood bath that will make recent week a child's play.

u'll actually give us an edge, because thats kind of warfare our army is best in (and thats why no country attacked us on the ground since 1982)

about palestinian casualties. i dont know, simply as that. i know that civvies were used as a human shelter but i get my info from the guys from the field, and no one has any numbers on palestinian casualties, civilian or armed organizations for that matter.

edit: the terrorist strategy was developed by the egyptians and stated that while arab countries can rest and replenish between wars, israel should'nt have the same time of rest.

the terrorist strategy is used mainly because it achieves much more israeli casualties then an convetional attacks.

thats why Syria, Iran and Iraq aid terrorist organizations, its a much more safe way to wage war then a direct convetional conflict.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 12 2002,01:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">to major Fubar:

if u want to ship wepons to the PA ur accepting the possibility that the west bank will be reoccupied in the the war that'll come immidiatly behind that.

and that the battles will hit scores of civvies because thats where the battles will be.<span id='postcolor'>

You make me smile. The West Bank IS already occupied and civillians are already suffering.

And the second point is that Israel however should not overestimate its power. You want some stats? Sure you do (just read the numbers / you dont need to understand the text)

Hope you can read at least the numbers. I think Israel is a strong nation, but an escalation and introduction of the other surrounding arabic states would be desasterous!

[scout 0]

unfortunatly we're used to faced such odds , all im saying that conventional war will engulf the whole region bringing more disastrous consiquences to all parties, and specifically for the palestinains cause battles WILL rage in the west bank, but this time it'll include aircraft and any other heavy weapons that will be used by BOTH sides.

it'll make the last week to look like a side show.

i have no wish for this but thats just what'll happen

BTW. i dont know if im able to find stats but it'll be a pleasure to clarify any past conflicts to my best knowledge

2nd edit: what i meant to say that instead a limited operation it'll become permanent and like any war will create more refugees (both palestinians and israelis in the west bank)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Funny enough that the story of David and Goliath is a deep component of Jewish mythology. Lets hope it does not repeat itself, Cause right now you are goliath.

But you all know me, Prof. Dr. Dr. Albert Schweitzer knows a solution for every problem, may it just be chronic smelly feet or a socio-political crisis.

Maybe you should build a Berlin wall that goes right through Jerusalem. And it would go right through the city leaving King Davids grave on the Jewish side and the Al Haram AL Scharif where the Aksa mosk lies (supposingly the place where Mohammed rode on his horse into heaven) on the palestinian side.

So one part of the town will be called Jerusalem (similar to West Germany) and the other will be called Al-Kuds (East Germany) which is the muslimic name for Jerusalem. :;

But then there would be a problem, cause exactly on this spot you also find the place where, as christians belief, Jesus held his last dinner. So I propose we built an independant state for the christians too, lets say we call it New Vatikan city.

Another problem would be that the big wall will prevent the palestinians from finding an employment and the Israelis from getting cheap labour!

Oh and then history would repeat itself and we would have an Middle East Cold War ( sounds pretty abstract).

[eskimo jackson 0]

i hope the european union makes a point for once and imposes sanctions on israel.

[scout 0]

to albert:

yours solution will give jobs for hundreds of construction worker wont i?

its nice dream though but overly simplified. u need to see the place to understand, the germany thing isnt close to the complexity of this.

and to what's his name:

never mind, i wont even bother

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (eskimo jackson @ April 12 2002,04:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i hope the european union makes a point for once and imposes sanctions on israel.<span id='postcolor'>

They already did to a certain extent. Germany started with cutting all weapon exports to Israel. But that is rather a humanitarian decision. But as we all know do sanctions result in the wrong effects. The European Union right now just wants to make sure that its protest must be considered as a serious voice (as serious as the eye-brow of Mr. Bush), so they are looking for simple (small ) measures they can take.

Israel will not withdraw so shouting and demonstrating doesnt help. But as I heard today they (e.g. Solana) probably prepares for the day when the Israelis will find out that this occuaption did not improve their situation, and this will be the actual moment of accusal.

Scout, no, definetly is this a totaly different conflict, we dont need to discuss about that. I was just so amused by the irony of fate that 3 symbolic buildings are all to be found in this city and this city is not realy located on the border but more to the centre of Israel. It cant be more complicated. With Berlin it was the same, it was in West Germany, but cut into two seperate parts. But Eastern Germany itself was located far more East.

[scout 0]

i heard today that  EU is plannig for more serious steps, although it'll hurt our economy, i can see from here the grinnig faces of US buisnessmen, as they'll enjoy mostly from this kind of steps.

it'll actually hurt EU position in the area because it wont be accepted as a mediator in this conflict (by israel), u dont want to know what ppl here are thinking about europians, escpecially about the French and the scandinavians.

and all the arson and the attacks of jews in europe doesnt help either.

all this will strengthrn the position of the US. i believe thats why the UK is much more close to the US in this area.

edit: damn, i must be tired, i missed some keys!

[scout 0]

report:

"a palestinian had attacked a workers terminal in gaza strip, killing 1 palestinian and wounding 4 others and 4 israelis, before he was killed by security personnel, the palestinians were waiting transport to work in israel"

fresh from the oven

[Longinius 1]

"There is law in peace and there is war-law that is strictly different. Commander can order execution of terrorist because he has right to do it."Fair" trial includes him and,as I know, 2 other officers (in some circumstances he can be alone). (civilians and soldiers are prisoners of war - terrorists have no status)

There are several declarations too. But war itself is big deterioration of human rights. I'm not finding anything human in war-law. (laws for peacekeeping operations are like laws in peacetime)."

Hope I never have to go up against the Czech Armed Forces because there seem to be some skewed views on the geneva convention and human rights.

[Longinius 1]

"unfortunatly we're used to faced such odds , all im saying that conventional war will engulf the whole region bringing more disastrous consiquences to all parties, and specifically for the palestinains cause battles WILL rage in the west bank, but this time it'll include aircraft and any other heavy weapons that will be used by BOTH sides.

it'll make the last week to look like a side show.

i have no wish for this but thats just what'll happen"

So you think it will hurt the Palestinians more to actually get support in the war against Israel? Hmmm, ofcourse an all out war would be hard for both sides but atleast it would be somewhat more equal.

"2nd edit: what i meant to say that instead a limited operation it'll become permanent and like any war will create more refugees (both palestinians and israelis in the west bank)"

If I was Palestinian, I would be willing to take that chance.

[scout 0]

think again: every major war resulted in immigration of palestinians out of israel.

u can win big but u can lose bigger. and as it proved itself, today there is no arab army that can stand against the IDF. im not bragging and the arab leaders accept it themselves.

the out come, even it would be a stand still would be the destruction of the areas where battles would be e.g. west bank, gaza. in full scale war, no one would even consider which weapons to use. u dont appriciate the odds.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 11 2002,17:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">SWAT forces are called in to eliminate lethal threats. They are called in when the situation has allready escalated above the norm. Therefor it is very likely that any move the target makes is to be considered hostile. The target has been given warnings and time to surrender. After the SWAT gets into action its all about the take down. Its a different scenario than regular law enforcement.<span id='postcolor'>

The SWAT protocol in U.S. says about the use of deadly force:

"If a suspect is pointing a gun at an officer or a hostage/civilian in a threatening manner, deadly force is allowed. Not before. Holding a gun alone is not sufficient for the use of lethal force."

So this is the police way.

Now it's different if say SAS is on a counterterrorist mission. They put bullets to the center of mass on sight of a suspect with a gun. But that is a military operation.

[scout 0]

thats why there is military and there is the police no? otherwise its all the same.

[Bart.Jan 0]

To Longinius :

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hope I never have to go up against the Czech Armed Forces because there seem to be some skewed views on the geneva convention and human rights. <span id='postcolor'>

Czech Armed Forces, and other many other Armed Forces, don't have skewed views on the geneva convention and human rights. I gave you MY interpretation of these problems. Nothing illegal - but cruel as life can be.

And Czech Armed Forces are defensive forces so I hope no one go up against us.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ April 12 2002,02:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hope you can read at least the numbers. I think Israel is a strong nation, but an escalation and introduction of the other surrounding arabic states would be desasterous!<span id='postcolor'>

Numbers are cool, but the Israeli material is far superior to the arab material. Especially the Israeli air force is top of the line. That means they can attain air superiority and we all know what happens then. You only need to look at the Gulf War.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 12 2002,05:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it'll actually hurt EU position in the area because it wont be accepted as a mediator in this conflict (by israel), u dont want to know what ppl here are thinking about europians, escpecially about the French and the scandinavians.

and all the arson and the attacks of jews in europe doesnt help either.<span id='postcolor'>

What did the scandinavians ever do to you? I totally missed it if we ever did anything to anybody.

Anyway, no wonder there are clashes in France, since they have an enormous arab population. I guess they don't like you slaying their brethren. And I'd say most of the attacks on jews in europe were done by pissed off arabs or some moronic neo-nazis. Neither of those represent the average citizen of europe.

[Longinius 1]

There was an article today in Aftonbladet (Swedish newspaper) about the stand off at the Church of Nativity. Since scout produces some interesting facts for us about the conflict I thought I'd relay some tidbits from the article.

- There are about 200 palestinians in the church, most of them are civilians who fled there during the initial stages of the conflict. Some are armed police officers that keep mainly to themselves. A person inside estimated the number of civilians to be slightly above 100.

- There are about 40 monks and nuns inside. One monk was shot to death about two days ago by IDF forces.

- IDF forces have surrounded the church and shoot at any target of opportunity. Recently a civilian was shot in the gut when headed for the upstairs bathroom.

- They have hardly any food, no first aid supplies. They have had nearly nothing to eat for about five days.

- IDF have fired into the church three times. The first being two days ago.

- Yesterday the IDF tried to break inside. They took down a couple of doors and a fire started on the roof. A Palestinian police officer was shot down trying to extinguish it.