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Longinius

Mid east

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We get a lot of publicity about Israel on our tv (Britain) and before i start, it is definately not one sided.

For example last night was a program about "suicide terrorism" and it featured people like the Tamil tigers, and of course the various palestinian groups.

And one part that really touched me was a little 8 year old girl, wrote her mother a note something along the lines of

"I cant stand this occupation, blah blah i dont want to die, i want to be a doctor when i grow up but there is shooting every day, and its so loud that i cannot study. I am going to go and kill them blah blah i hate them so much (israelis)"

Well its something like that but i cant remember, it was a very touching letter though. Surprising for an 8 year old.

Though im sure she wrote it because she spoke to the camera man and she seemed very smart and strong willed.

Shes alive you say? yeah shes alive, she took a knife and went outside and was going to try and kill some israeli soldiers but her mother stopped her and took the knife from her.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me feel for the palestinians.

But on the same show it actually showed victims being carried off from areas that had been suicide bombed. I mean this was some really graphic stuff that i havent seen on tv before, at least very often. Lots and lots of blood and horrible wounds.

People crying, angry people etc.

This made me feel for the Israeli people.

Overall though, my sympathy goes to the palis because they have nothing to fight back with except for the crude and ill thought out method of suicide bombings. This is not however to say that either side are angels. Far from it.

As for the situation, it can only get worse. The palestinians want theyre own state. Israel constantly destroys the infrastructure of palestine, making this dream less and less likely. Invading territory, settling on stolen land, demolishing houses etc. All of this activity does not achieve anything. That much is clear. All it does is create more hatred, and more "martyrs" willing to die for their plight.

I think that international opinion of israel probably dropped a fair degree when they started firing upon a peaceful protest also.

Sooo, maybe they will eventaully lose all western backing? Not too likely. Arabs will once more go to war? Possibly, because right now a lot of them are condemning Israel and breaking ties etc.

Time will tell...

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The truth is those people are just going have to get along,but each side is soo brain wash.I bet you though,that if israel was in europe,and they had the same problem with another country,USA would probably have bomb them(israel) by now.But what about the other side though ? Do other middle-east countries want peace ? I believe if those middle east countries wanted peace this thing would have been over with along time ago.Don't say israel stole that land,they had to go somewhere.Plus the other  middle-east countries sure didn't care when they control the land.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ April 04 2002,10:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't say israel stole that land,they had to go somewhere.Plus the other  middle-east countries sure didn't care when they control the land.<span id='postcolor'>

See you just don't know what you are talking about. According to the UN the building of Isreali settlements on palestinian land that was occupied during the various wars Isreal has had with its neighbours is a war crime.

Thats the land they've stolen.

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Israel did steal land though.

Im not talking about the original land given to them to live in, im talking about the land that they invade and occupied. Hundreds, maybe thousands of palestinians have been displaced. What do you think "Jewish Settlers" means?

It means Jewish settlers settling on palestinian soil.

I dont think any of the other Middle east countries are ever going to be in favour with Israel, but i bet they would all be polishing their AK's a lot less if Israel stopped invading and occupying palestinian land.

But yes i understand Israel wouldnt be doing that if the palis werent hassling them with suicide bombs.

But as the richer, more powerful and developed country, Israel certainly should know better.

Denying US ambassadors to talk with Arafat doesnt help either. Doesnt send a very clear message does it?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 04 2002,11:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ April 04 2002,10:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't say israel stole that land,they had to go somewhere.Plus the other  middle-east countries sure didn't care when they control the land.<span id='postcolor'>

See you just don't know what you are talking about. According to the UN the building of Isreali settlements on palestinian land that was occupied during the various wars Isreal has had with its neighbours is a war crime.

Thats the land they've stolen.<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe i don't.But to tell you the truth i'm sick of it.Maybe we should just nuke those 2 countries. <--just kidding.But maybe the media should stop covering it ,and every country just let them fight it out,but you gotta make sure no countries tries to give them ammo or other.If another country gives one country something ,they have to give another country the samething.blah blah.It's just bunch of bs.Middle-east has been attacking each other for the longest time,that i don't really care anymore.Maybe it's time the western world to just pull outtta there and let them bang at it for like 20 years.Only if the oils wasn't in the middle-east.

Now i wake up.... smile.gif

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lol would be great if we could all pull out of the middle east, but i reckon if we did first of all Palestine would be totally wiped out by Israel, and then Israel would be totally wiped out by the surrounding arabs.

Although it would be mutually assured destruction because the moment israel came close to being defeated they would launch nukes at arab targets.

Then of course USA sattelites would see the nukes and would shout "Damn it the ruskies are attacking!" And would launch nukes at Russia, and then Russians would say

"The American are attacking!" And then they would send nukes to America and Great Britain.

And then As the British finally realised it was all over we would say "Bugger it, lets nuke the french"

That is how the world will end.

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lol , the french would say "THE GERMANS ARE ATTACKING"

and would launch nukes around german tagets , the germans would then nuke the polish ............. what am i saying confused.gif?confused.gif i should sleep more and drink less coffee

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Do the Germans even have nukes? Ok, back on topic.

This situation is pretty much dead-locked. If the Israeli's kill Arafat, it's Arab neighbours will be pissed off. If they keep Arafat alive, who knows...the situation will then be either pretty much the same or the US and Europe will step in. Who knows. What I don't understand is how can Israel hold Arafat responsible for all suicide attacks by Palestinians? If some nuthead blows someone up, Arafat is responsible? I don't get that.

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"What I don't understand is how can Israel hold Arafat responsible for all suicide attacks by Palestinians? If some nuthead blows someone up, Arafat is responsible? I don't get that."

If they couldnt hold Arafat and the PA government responsible, they could not occupy their territory and perform the attacks. That is why Arafat is responsible, no matter what.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (InRange @ April 04 2002,14:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I don't understand is how can Israel hold Arafat responsible for all suicide attacks by Palestinians? If some nuthead blows someone up, Arafat is responsible? I don't get that.<span id='postcolor'>

You people have really been hoodwinked. Here's just a little tip of the iceberg:

Documents show link between bomb makers, Palestinian Authority

By Celean Jacobson (Associated Press)

TEL AVIV (April 4) - The IDF said Tuesday it found a letter in Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat's compound, written by the Aksa Martyrs Brigades to Arafat's chief financial officer, requesting the money needed to make up to nine bombs a week.

The document details costs incurred by the Aksa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of Arafat's Fatah movement, and was found in the office of Fuad Shubaki, chief financial officer for the PA, said intelligence officer Col. Miri Eisin.

"I call it a terror invoice, of how much terrorism costs," she told a news conference.

The letter was among the documents seized after tanks and troops entered Arafat's compound last Friday, following a wave of suicide bomb attacks.

Asked about the documents, senior PA official Saeb Erekat said he had not seen them. But he said Prime Minister Ariel Sharon "has asked everyone to help with his public relations campaign and the Israelis are very busy fabricating things."

Israel said the documents were legitimate and important.

"What we have here for the first time is a document which connects directly those responsible for terrorist activity and their requesting the money from an official person within the Palestinian Authority, and not just any person, but Shubaki," said Eisin.

At Israel's demand, the PA arrested Shobaki earlier this year for his alleged involvement in the Karine A arms shipment that was seized in the Red Sea.

Israel says Shubaki helped organize the shipment, which was from Iran and headed to the Gaza Strip.

Israel said Shubaki is currently in Arafat's besieged compound.

In the document dated September 17, 2001, the Aksa Brigades state that their largest expense has been electrical components and chemical supplies for the production of charges and bombs, and that each explosive cost at least NIS 700.

"We need about five to nine bombs a week for our cells in various areas" the document says.

The letter also asks for NIS 82,000 to be immediately transferred to purchase ammunition for automatic rifles. "We require this ammunition on a daily basis," it said.

It also lists the costs of memorial services for Aksa Brigades members who are killed, as well as the printing of posters, invitations and tents for mourners.

"We hold Yasser Arafat personally responsible for the violence the people of Israel are facing and this invoice of terror is further proof of the charge that the government of Israel has made against Yasser Arafat," said Dore Gold, an adviser to Sharon. He also said a box of counterfeit money was found in the compound.

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"Israel said the documents were legitimate and important."

Then it must be true.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 04 2002,14:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Israel said the documents were legitimate and important."

Then it must be true.<span id='postcolor'>

NO! It must be a lie because Israel said it.

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Killing Arafat will definitely bring peace. If he wasn't there to give orders, no suicide bombings would happen. Surely it must be so.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ April 04 2002,13:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Im very tired, do i detect a slgiht sense of sarcasm Oligo?  biggrin.gif<span id='postcolor'>

Ehhh.... There might be some sarcasm involved, I admit that much. biggrin.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 04 2002,14:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Killing Arafat will definitely bring peace.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes and no. Killing Arafat will not bring peaqce by itself but it will definitrely remove the biggest obstacle to Peace that exists so far.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> If he wasn't there to give orders, no suicide bombings would happen.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes and no. While Arafat has been sanctioning, promoting and supporting suicide bombers since Oslo, he does not directly control many of the umbrella and separate organizations that deploy them.

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"Yes and no. Killing Arafat will not bring peaqce by itself but it will definitrely remove the biggest obstacle to Peace that exists so far."

The biggest obstacle to peace is sadly that you (the israelis) intensively hate the palestinians and the palestinians intensively hate you. It's a pretty big obstacle.

"Yes and no. While Arafat has been sanctioning, promoting and supporting suicide bombers since Oslo, he does not directly control many of the umbrella and separate organizations that deploy them."

Of course you know that the hate of the palestinians is so burning that they will never stop producing extremists willing to suicide bomb you? Even if you achieve peace with a majority of the population, there will be extremists who will bomb and bomb you for years and years. It takes a long time to forget hate.

Oh, yeah, you could always kill every palestinian man, woman and child. This would end the hostilities pretty fast.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 04 2002,14:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The biggest obstacle to peace is sadly that you (the israelis) intensively hate the palestinians and the palestinians intensively hate you. It's a pretty big obstacle.<span id='postcolor'>

I think that is oversimplifying things. The problem is the constant escalation of the situation. A palestinan suicide bombing ->israeli retaliation->suicide bombing->israeli retaliation... and so on.

I can understand Israel - I mean they have to do something about it - they can't let terrorist freely kill their citizens. I also understand the palestinians - they are fighting for their lifes and existance - lack of an army brings them to terrorist acts.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 04 2002,15:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The biggest obstacle to peace is sadly that you (the israelis) intensively hate the palestinians and the palestinians intensively hate you. It's a pretty big obstacle.<span id='postcolor'>

Please download and read this PDF document: Arafat's Culture of Hatred and Violence.

Then please find me the equivalent quotes in Israeli mass media over the last 7-8 years. Sure you'll find some quotes but they're not promoted on Israel TV, Radio and certainly not in the textbooks that my children learn from in school, from kindergarten up through high school.

There is no symetry between the self vented hatred that the PA has drummed into their own population and the tollerance that Israel as a whole had to enter into the Oslo agreement and all of the capitulations that followed.

We didn't start this war - Arafat did.

Once again, none of you seem to know what been flying here since Israeli made the tragic mistake of doing business with Arafat.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of course you know that the hate of the palestinians is so burning that they will never stop producing extremists willing to suicide bomb you? Even if you achieve peace with a majority of the population, there will be extremists who will bomb and bomb you for years and years. It takes a long time to forget hate.<span id='postcolor'>

We'll wait and take action if necessary.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh, yeah, you could always kill every palestinian man, woman and child. This would end the hostilities pretty fast.

<span id='postcolor'>

Population transfer would be more like it.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 04 2002,14:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think that is oversimplifying things. The problem is the constant escalation of the situation. A palestinan suicide bombing ->israeli retaliation->suicide bombing->israeli retaliation... and so on.<span id='postcolor'>

The circle of violence causes escalating hate. When enough hate has accumulated, people start to react with emotion instead of reason. When this happens, it's next to impossible to negotiate anything, since people don't reason anymore, they just feel the hate. Hating people become unwilling to understand the other side at all: "How can those scum do this to us?!" In these situations, opportunistic politicians can play the people any way they like, as long as it is against THEM.

So I don't think I am oversimplifying. People need to revert back to reason from the emotion. I seriously doubt that that will ever happen.

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You don't need propaganda in this conflict to instill hate. All you need to do is to read the news. There it goes: Suicide bombing, military strike, suicide bombing, military strike... Again you try to find the blame in the other side, Avon, when blame is not an issue at all.

The attitude of the palestinians is pretty clear: They hate israelis.

The israeli attitude I think I know from these sources:

-Three israelis I have talked to, because of work related reasons (so these israelis were scientists), all became very emotional when this little war issue was brought up. It was pretty obvious they emotionally hated the palestinians and all other arabs.

-Reports in The Time magazine have pointed out growing feelings of hatred towards the palestinians in israel, detected in opinion polls.

-Documentaries in the telly have shown interviews of israelis, who seem to think the palestinians are scum. Of course they also showed israelis with a more sober attitude to the conflict.

So I feel pretty safe in claiming that there is a sentiment of hate in the israelis as well. But then again, I don't live there, so tell me is this true, Avon?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 04 2002,15:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I also understand the palestinians - they are fighting for their lifes and existance - lack of an army brings them to terrorist acts.<span id='postcolor'>

No IDF forces were in area A in September 2000, and only the agreed forces were in area B, when Arafat called the entire Population to arms back then. No tanks were even in strategic positions at that time and it was not Israel who announced an armed struggle against the PA. Get the most elementary facts straight.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 04 2002,15:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The circle of violence causes escalating hate.<span id='postcolor'>

So does double posting! mad.giftounge.gif

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 04 2002,14:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So does double posting!  mad.gif  tounge.gif<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, well, I utilized my other post for more info. So there is no double post any more. See, I rectified my mistake. tounge.gif

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The U.N. were created to stop something like this happening. In an ideal world, a large U.N. force would go in and keep both Israelis and Palestinians seperated. If either one starts messing around, they are going to get messed back by the U.N. The U.N. would be stationed at the border and make sure that the border is tight into both directions, ie. no Israeli tanks go into Palestine, suicide bombers/terrorists/arms etc. stay in Palestine. That sort of thing.

Furthermore, in an ideal world the U.N. would cordon off Jerusalem and declare it a U.N. protectorate for a few years until Peace has finally been enforced, then Jerusalem would be changed into an independent state (just like Vatican City), protected by U.N. forces and off limits to any Palestinian/Israeli forces or police.

The status of Jewish settlements would be decided on the conference table between Israel and Palestine, with a UN representative as chairman.

With a little bit of will and lots of firepower you could have peace within 2 years.

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