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Longinius

Mid east

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Longinius, Denoir etc

Funny how so many Swedes (and other Scandinavians

Oligo ,Pucko etc )

are ganging up on Scout and Avon to make the same tired 'points' over and over again

Sweden has no history to be proud of when it comes to standing up against aggression

Letting Nazi men and material through to invade Norway on their trains and supply raw materials to Nazi germany

(+ fairly widespread support of Hitlers Germany in certain other Scandinavian countries )

Why arent you so vociferously critisising The killers in Rwanda, the terrible war in Sudan, lawless Somalia, Repressive regimes throughout SE asia (Indonesia, Burma etc)ETC?

Israels just so much more fun and fashionable to criticise these days. Its all the rage you know.

HOW DARE people try to fight against homicidal acts of terrorism!

What are those Israelis thinking?

The enlightened Scandinavians know (from their long experience of fighting against terror)  that the correct way to prevail against a violent foe, is to give the 'enemy' (otherwise known as 'sir' ) everything they want immediatly and hope the scary looking men dont act nasty.

Those brave 'neutrals'  ('Neutral' ie give the bad men everything they want and hope they go away)

mad.gif

I ask you , why the hell should we (*the people in the developed world still living in countries willing to fight for their

beliefs*)

listen to Sweden ?

Why should we live by your gutless rules?

Half you people(approx  wink.gif  ) still think it was a good idea to give succour to the nazis in world war 2 and help them defeat Norway (hardly a neutral action)

yes we enjoy your tasteful pornographic films ,your entertaining air guitarish 'mock rock'

,and your amusing fish based menus,

but when it comes to geopolitical commentary.....

SHUT THE HELL UP.

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"Sweden has no history to be proud of when it comes to standing up against aggression"

Yes we do, cause we survived it basically unscathed. More below....

"Letting Nazi men and material through to invade Norway on their trains and supply raw materials to Nazi germany

(+ fairly widespread support of Hitlers Germany in certain other Scandinavian countries )"

We also allowed Allied forces to use our terrirtory for various purposes. We were neutral, remember. Its not as if we would have had a chance against the Nazis anyway. Our military was in poor shape and had we resisted, we had just been occupied just as Denmark and Norway was. Since we remained free and independant we could help many people. Sure, there were Nazi supporters here. But there were Nazi supporters in every nation.

"Why arent you so vociferously critisising The killers in Rwanda, the terrible war in Sudan, lawless Somalia, Repressive regimes throughout SE asia (Indonesia, Burma etc)ETC?"

Because they dont claim to be the good guys. There is nothing much there to discuss, its a pretty obvious and clear cut scenario. Repressive regimes in Asia for example. How many repressed asians are here to discuss with?

"I ask you , why the hell should we (*the people in the developed world still living in countries willing to fight for their

beliefs*) listen to Sweden ?"

Because we havent been in a war for a couple of hundred years? Maybe that is something to listen to. Or because we actually do a lot of humanitarian work all over the world? Because we ARE neutral and not totally biased to one side?

"Why should we live by your gutless rules?"

If you call NOT being suicidal gutless, then I will gladly be gutless. But ofcourse you yourself would always stand up against overwhelming odds and bravely defy anyone that came around. You are a hero! Where would the world be without you?

"Half you people(approx ) still think it was a good idea to give succour to the nazis in world war 2 and help them defeat Norway (hardly a neutral action)"

Do you think it would have made ANY difference if we resisted? Any at all? No, it wouldnt. The result would have been another destroyed nation and a couple of 100 000 more dead bodies.

"but when it comes to geopolitical commentary.....

SHUT THE HELL UP."

So, only those that have been in wars and won should get a say? Thats real sensible. I could turn the argument around and say that why should any nation that willingly sends its troops all over the world to attack others and occupy land have any say in peace matters? Why should a nation who occupied foreign territory during a war (even if they were defenders) have any say in talks of peace? All they know is war, all they want is war (since they occupy foreign land) so what do they know of compromise and peace?

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"The enlightened Scandinavians know (from their long experience of fighting against terror) that the correct way to prevail against a violent foe, is to give the 'enemy' (otherwise known as 'sir' ) everything they want immediatly and hope the scary looking men dont act nasty."

Yeah, cause we all know the Finns just laid down their weapons when the Russians attacked. And we also know that the Norweigan freedom fighters had no impact on the outcome of the war. Also, the Swedish voulenteers that helped both the Finns and Norweigans were all cowards. They ran from Sweden to the frontlines because it was safer there.

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It's pretty ridiculous saying that the Swedish memebers of this forum have some sort of anti-Israel agenda, they are simply speaking their minds.

Then to try and validate your points you start attacking Sweden's history? I don't think mudslinging will win you much support.

As for raising the same tired points, well, Scout does that at least as much as the others in this thread, hell, that's how this thread got to 100 pages!

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So your answer in effect , is that you do humanitarian work?

Yes many Scandinavians fought bravely in WW2 (this was not what i was talking about in reference to a lack of experience fighting terror)

(but still i am not impressed by the Swedish government i n WW2 - they survived? How miraculous well so did Brazil but i dont recall them actively assisting the Nazis

sure so you had the Werhmacht breathing down your neck,

but it still doesnt make it pretty

"Because they dont claim to be the good guys. There is nothing much there to discuss, its a pretty obvious and clear cut scenario. Repressive regimes in Asia for example. How many repressed asians are here to discuss with?"

Rubbish , many of these regimes make their voice felt in the UN- they are accepted as legitimate despite MASSIVE human rights abuses, they are given resources and help by the UN

but when Israel does anything 'wrong' its IMMEDIATLY jumped on by europeans

How many Palestinians are here complaining?

All i see are Europeans

"It's pretty ridiculous saying that the Swedish memebers of this forum have some sort of anti-Israel agenda, they are simply speaking their minds."

As am i.(or at least a point of view i sometimes entertain)

Why then the relentless focus on Israel?

Sure looks anti Israeli to me , -<certainly based on perceived actions>- but none the less anti Israeli

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I have a lot of respect for Scandis. For a start, they are the proud owners of beautiful countries, and they know how to keep them that way. Second of all, Scandinavia has a long, rich and interesting history, and yes warfare is a part of that history.

Its hard to imagine that many years ago the vikings were the meanest, most war mongering bastards the world had seen at the time, but now they are level headed (sometimes) and mainly peaceful.

And finally, they make excellent porn.

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"I have a lot of respect for Scandis. For a start, they are the proud owners of beautiful countries, and they know how to keep them that way."

Yes By enforced population control (Eugenics)

admittedly it ended a while ago.

And an interfering nanny state

If Britain had 8 million people in it and not so much heavy industry or economic competitiveness im sure it would be similar

"Second of all, Scandinavia has a long, rich and interesting history, and yes warfare is a part of that history.

Its hard to imagine that many years ago the vikings were the meanest, most war mongering bastards the world had seen at the time, but now they are level headed (sometimes) and mainly peaceful."

True and i sometimes think theyre overcompensating

smile.gif

maybe Scandinavians are afraid that if they started down the interventionist route again

they would become RAVENOUS SAVAGES biggrin.gif

Behind every friendly peacenik

IS A BLOOD CRAZED BERZERKER  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif  biggrin.gif

Take that Sven Goran Erikson, i bet hes into Bondage ,sado masochism etc

anyway bit off topic here

i dont really hate Scandinavian countries as much as i might seem to here (or at all)

but sometimes,.......

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"Rubbish , many of these regimes make their voice felt in the UN- they are accepted as legitimate despite MASSIVE human rights abuses, they are given resources and help by the UN"

This is true. But the fact remains, here are no representatives of those oppressive regimes to discuss the matter with. On the other hand, Scout is here and such is Avon. These discussions wouldn't take place if here was no one to discuss with.

"but when Israel does anything 'wrong' its IMMEDIATLY jumped on by europeans"

Yes, someone tends to quickly point out when a democratic state comits state terrorism. And the other side is quick to respond with "ANTI SEMITE!!"

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ May 06 2002,14:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes many Scandinavians fought bravely in WW2 (this was not what i was talking about in reference to a lack of experience fighting terror)<span id='postcolor'>

LOL, man. You need to read a history book that doesn't have "written and printed in U.S." on the back.

You don't know FUCKING SHIT about what happened in Skandinavia during world war 2, with all your fance high-school history book theoretical no-good bullshit knowledge.

I'm Danish - and as the Danish government was forced to capitulate to the German invasion force (the had about 500% more troops on stand by at the border in case we complained) the nazis began a systematic sorting of our population, to pick out jews and other minorities to be send to their death. Sweden became a safe haven for many of these people, who where smuggled out of Denmark by brave fishermen from both Denmark and Sweden. Had they not been able to hide in Sweden they would all have died in KZ camps.

It's easy to sit back and judge others in your safe continent 100 miles away from the rest of the world. Unfortunately this distance also makes many Americans very unaware of how the world is put together - this is proven again and again in incredibly stupid retard posts like yours. mad.gifmad.gif

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I have no doubt that sweden was a safe haven for refugee's, but wasnt there a recent enquiree into the fact that the swedish sent some of them back to be killed? on request of the nazi's?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (christophercles @ May 06 2002,15:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The swedish had the best mercinaries the world has ever known. Until the invention of gunpowder that is.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL

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"I have no doubt that sweden was a safe haven for refugee's, but wasnt there a recent enquiree into the fact that the swedish sent some of them back to be killed? on request of the nazi's?"

Yes, they probably did do this. The Nazis gave them a list of known terrorists and said "Hand them over or else you will be destroyed in our war against the Jewish, Norweigan and Danish terrorists" so we handed them over. Just like we would do now if the US demanded it. Just like how we sanctioned people on the US list of terrorists, without giving those people a trial or even making sure there was any proof to the matter.

On the other hand, if we handed over 10 we probably saved the lifes of 100. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Swedes = Vulcans? (I really doubt that, but it looks nice)

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ May 06 2002,15:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ May 06 2002,14:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes many Scandinavians fought bravely in WW2 (this was not what i was talking about in reference to a lack of experience fighting terror)<span id='postcolor'>

LOL, man. You need to read a history book that doesn't have "written and printed in U.S." on the back.

You don't know FUCKING SHIT about what happened in Skandinavia during world war 2, with all your fance high-school history book theoretical no-good bullshit knowledge.

I'm Danish - and as the Danish government was forced to capitulate to the German invasion force (the had about 500% more troops on stand by at the border in case we complained) the nazis began a systematic sorting of our population, to pick out jews and other minorities to be send to their death. Sweden became a safe haven for many of these people, who where smuggled out of Denmark by brave fishermen from both Denmark and Sweden. Had they not been able to hide in Sweden they would all have died in KZ camps.

It's easy to sit back and judge others in your safe continent 100 miles away from the rest of the world. Unfortunately this distance also makes many Americans very unaware of how the world is put together - this is proven again and again in incredibly stupid retard posts like yours. mad.gif  mad.gif<span id='postcolor'>

Nice insulting!

I live around the corner and my books dont have the "made in US" on the back-cover. Still I must insist on the fact that indeed there were Danish, Swedish, Polish, French, Tscheck, Dutch... (well I cant stop) soldiers to be found in the centre units of the SS, and not forced but ideological perverted as the german SS-members. And as in any country there were not only brave fishermen but neighbours telling the SA where jews were hiding themselves. Thanks god that the historical work has advanced so far that we no longer suffer under total stereotyping. Anti-semitism was a European illness and people were infected anywhere.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (christophercles @ May 06 2002,16:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have no doubt that sweden was a safe haven for refugee's, but wasnt there a recent enquiree into the fact that the swedish sent some of them back to be killed? on request of the nazi's?<span id='postcolor'>

I thought this too important an issue to go unanswered in detail.

There may have been cases, as you say, but it would have been more the exception than the rule, in Sweden's case.

Have a look at the Simon Weisenthal's holocaust article on Sweden:

http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/text/x31/xm3188.html

Give credit where credit is due.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ May 06 2002,16:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ May 06 2002,15:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ May 06 2002,14:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes many Scandinavians fought bravely in WW2 (this was not what i was talking about in reference to a lack of experience fighting terror)<span id='postcolor'>

LOL, man. You need to read a history book that doesn't have "written and printed in U.S." on the back.

You don't know FUCKING SHIT about what happened in Skandinavia during world war 2, with all your fance high-school history book theoretical no-good bullshit knowledge.

I'm Danish - and as the Danish government was forced to capitulate to the German invasion force (the had about 500% more troops on stand by at the border in case we complained) the nazis began a systematic sorting of our population, to pick out jews and other minorities to be send to their death. Sweden became a safe haven for many of these people, who where smuggled out of Denmark by brave fishermen from both Denmark and Sweden. Had they not been able to hide in Sweden they would all have died in KZ camps.

It's easy to sit back and judge others in your safe continent 100 miles away from the rest of the world. Unfortunately this distance also makes many Americans very unaware of how the world is put together - this is proven again and again in incredibly stupid retard posts like yours. mad.gif  mad.gif<span id='postcolor'>

Nice insulting!

I live around the corner and my books dont have the "made in US" on the back-cover. Still I must insist on the fact that indeed there were Danish, Swedish, Polish, French, Tscheck, Dutch... (well I cant stop) soldiers to be found in the centre units of the SS, and not forced but ideological perverted as the german SS-members. And as in any country there were not only brave fishermen but neighbours telling the SA where jews were hiding themselves. Thanks god that the historical work has advanced so far that we no longer suffer under total stereotyping. Anti-semitism was a European illness and people were infected anywhere.<span id='postcolor'>

Did it say anywhere in my post that all skandinavians are saints? No. Some have twisted beliefs, just like nazis - even to this day. I'd never try to cover up for such people.

My [furious] point was that I'm sick of people who academically critisize Sweden for their neutrality during WW2 without understanding how important this neutrality was to many peoples lives, as well as making themselves experts on european mentality when they've never lived here.

It takes ALOT of diplomacy to maintain balance on a continent with so many different nationalities and mentalities living closely door to door.

This is why I get pissed off when americans makes themselves experts on diplomatic balance when they can't even manage the few neighbours they have themselves and generally has as simple a world view, as a 3-year old.

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LOL biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

I must say i find this little discourse amusing

smile.gif

First - all the views i expressed were somewhat exaggerated from my normal views - i told you i was feeling a little...angry..

so i let rip with a rant (ala Wobble) just to see what would happen.

And lo and behold the normally reasonable Gimbal starts his own little rant heheh

"LOL, man. You need to read a history book that doesn't have "written and printed in U.S." on the back.

You don't know FUCKING SHIT about what happened in Skandinavia during world war 2, with all your fance high-school history book theoretical no-good bullshit knowledge"

Sorry for sounding like a typical american..... I know words like 'Proud' and 'Brave' tend to anger mainland europeans biggrin.gif

(actually im English smile.gif - but hey -whats the difference right?)

I must say i read a good few articles on the Winter War

( posted by Pete? i think) and also a book or two on

Swedens (and others

---Such as Finland with Russia post WW2)

dealing with the great powers.

very interesting stuff

+ watched more or less every WW2 film set in Scandinavia

(so perhaps my knowledge might just exceed "F<>>ING S<>T" although im first to admit im no expert....)

but anyway

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Here is a collection of snippets I got to reply to:

“Why then the relentless focus on Israel?

Sure looks anti Israeli to me , -<certainly based on perceived actions>- but none the less anti Israeli “

This topic is called Mid east, maybe that's the reason to focus on Mid east?

“Yes By enforced population control (Eugenics) admittedly it ended a while ago. And an interfering nanny state

If Britain had 8 million people in it and not so much heavy industry or economic competitiveness im sure it would be similarâ€

I'd like to know what you mean by your claim that eugenics have been used in scandinavia for population control. Please give some examples.

Anyway, the economic competitiveness of scandinavia is formidable. I just got to point out that Finland is leading the competitive prowess index list at the moment, followed by U.S. And as far as I know, Sweden is a real economic powerhouse. In fact, scandinavian economic prowess is probably better than that of U.K.

“I live around the corner and my books dont have the "made in US" on the back-cover. Still I must insist on the fact that indeed there were Danish, Swedish, Polish, French, Tscheck, Dutch... (well I cant stop) soldiers to be found in the centre units of the SS, and not forced but ideological perverted as the german SS-members. And as in any country there were not only brave fishermen but neighbours telling the SA where jews were hiding themselves. Thanks god that the historical work has advanced so far that we no longer suffer under total stereotyping. Anti-semitism was a European illness and people were infected anywhere.“

There were nazis everywhere during WWII, even in bloody U.S. (I've seen some footage of the funny guys). Being a nazi was sort of chic at the time, just like it is chic nowadays to be a (yuck) vegetarian or an anti-globalization freak. Some people just got to have some shitty ideology to live by and it changes with the times.

How hard it is to understand that WWII was not a colossal battle between good and evil, but a struggle of countries with slightly higher morals against countries with slightly lower morals? The countries that fought for their survival as a nation can not be classed to either side, because survival comes first (sometimes it means you got to deal with the devil).

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ May 06 2002,17:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sorry for sounding like a typical american..... I know words like 'Proud' and 'Brave' tend to anger mainland europeans  biggrin.gif<span id='postcolor'>

Such words are all too easy to use when not sitting in the middle of the shitpile. US was pretty much totally safe during WWII and sending "the brave" off to battle is different than _living_ in the middle of the battlefield.

And yes your right - I normally try to be calm and sensible. But this subject and the stereotypical academical views that ships with it are just too damn tiring. It's too simple to look back and point fingers.

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Oligo-I can hardly believe you're in the dark about this

Swedish Eugenics

http://www.ncpa.org/~ncpa/pi/internat/pdinter/pdint178.html

The first site that came up on Google (i can give others , if this ones too biased- havent really studied the site)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Eugenics+Sweden

Second>-"This topic is called Mid east, maybe that's the reason to focus on Mid east?"

Yes sure. And Israel is the only Wrongdoer in the Middle east?

If i was an Israeli and i only saw criticisms of Israel then id probably feel a little sinned against myself.

Maybe YOU take it for granted that everybody excepts without argue that suicide bombing is wrong (though i seem to remember even this being disputed by some) and thus feel no need to bring it up

'Pukko' said that its because Israel is more western

But from an Israeli perspective it looks as though you're picking on one side

Holding up one side to western values of decency (with the highest scrutiny) without holding up the other to those same values (in fact i suppose this could be seen as racism against palestinians/arabs- accepting them as incapable of living/fighting in a reasonable (to a westerner) way)

Dont you see how this could appear?

Noone seems to care that Arafat is caught up with suicide bombers and sometimes (often according to Israelis) incites his people to perform these very acts

(that he later fails to condemn)

(+ the training up of thousands of palistinian kids to love and admire suicide bombers- with the overt approval of Arafat)

I dont like the precise means that the IDF has used to get at the terrorists. Its messy and too costly in civilian lives, im quite sure it could been done better.

But i like even less the complete free hand that is given to Chairman Arafat by the (unaccountable) EU (of which i am supposedly a citizen)

And his general lack of criticism in Europe.

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"I dont like the precise means that the IDF has used to get at the terrorists. Its messy and too costly in civilian lives, im quite sure it could been done better."

Antisemite!!

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"Such words are all too easy to use when not sitting in the middle of the shitpile. US was pretty much totally safe during WWII and sending "the brave" off to battle is different than _living_ in the middle of the battlefield."

True, True.

As you will recall im English smile.gif (still a few miles away admittedly)

And as a matter of fact i live in a house that was rebuilt after the first one was hit in the war by a German V1 rocket....

and having never met my fathers father i have at least some idea of the sacrifices made in WW2

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