Mid east

[scout 0]

im with you on this one longinius!

[scout 0]

well denoir, im afraid that the constitution of the PLO hadnt changed it goals, to free ALL lands!

in palestinian school books there is no Israel, its all mentioned as palestine. i have a strong impresion that for the time being its not very realistic and will hurt it position to talk about it, but i've already heard some speeches that Arafat have done calling for the return to every piece of land in Israel, which latteraly means the destruction of israel.

[PitViper 0]

Weren't the Golan Heights occupied by Israeli because the Pals were using it to lob artillery directly into Israel?

[scout 0]

no! the golan heights were syrian, there were no pals there. the only ppl that were there are Druze who are respected part of our country now, and i had the honor to serve with quite a few. they are bunch of decent ppl and fierce fighters.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 17 2002,21:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Weren't the Golan Heights occupied by Israeli because the Pals were using it to lob artillery directly into Israel?<span id='postcolor'>

The Syrians shelled Israeli farms and vilages in the Galilee below the Golan Heights. These attacks became frequent in 1965 and in 1966.

Contrary to what Scout says, the Golan Druze are very anti-Israel and are very pro-Syrian. This is in major contrast to the remaining Druze in Israel who are exemplary citizens to whom Israel does not pay sufficient grattitude to, IMO.

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 17 2002,17:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the talk in about evacing 90% of the territory.

did i say Arafat objects this move fiercly?<span id='postcolor'>

What about the other 10%? Could there be any reason for the Pals to want/need that area too?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the pals wont agree to have settlers in their territory and i wont leave em to the mercy of the PA.

the palestinians just want us to pull out all the way back to europe and the US. thats all. it seems you are all thinking in too western terms ppl.

if no one understood it, the idea is to kick us outa here, if not why didnt they accept Baraks proposal? he gave em literally all they wanted!

<span id='postcolor'>

This quote could be added to the one above, but it also makes me remember what the IDF refusenik Assaf Oron wrote in his letter posted by RedRogue on page 30 of this thread:

"..The general theme is the tribal theme. A very very loud voice (and in Israel nowadays, it is the only voice that is allowed to be fully heard) keeps shouting that we are in the midst of a war between two tribes: a tribe of human beings, of pure good - the Israelis - and a tribe of sub-human beings, of pure evil - the Palestinians. This voice is so loud, that it has found its way even to the op-ed pages of the New York Times (William Safire, March 24 or 25). To those who find this black-and-white picture a bit hard to believe, the same voice shouts that this is a war of life and death. Only one tribe will survive, and so even if we are not purely good, we must lay morality and conscience to sleep, shut up and fight to kill - or else, the Palestinians will throw us into the sea.

Does this ring a bell to you? It does to me. As a little child growing up in Israel under Golda Meir and Moshe Dayan, all I heard was that the Arabs are inhuman monsters who want to throw us into the sea, they understand only force, and since our wonderful IDF has won the Six Day War they know not to mess with us anymore - or else. And of course, we must keep the Liberated Territories to ourselves, because there's no one to talk with. Then came the Yom Kippur war, and for a child of 7 it was the perfect proof that indeed the Arabs want to throw us into the sea, and what a great opportunity it was for our glorious IDF to teach them a lesson. I prayed for the war to continue to its natural and final end - the complete surrender of all Arab armies. I was too small to evaluate, then, how the war really ended; all these cease-fires and talks were too complicated and boring, much more boring than a war. And it seemed humiliating that WE should withdraw in these cease-fires; I remember that the re-opening of the Suez Canal was portrayed in our mass media as a kind of defeat.

A few years passed and a funny thing happened: those throw-us-into-the-sea Arabs came to talk with us, and in exchange for all of Sinai they would sign a full peace. The IDF chief of staff (the late Motte Gur, later a Labor Party minister) shouted that it is a hoax, that we should not believe Saadat, but the politicians had to sign. Already a teenager, I went and protested against the withdrawal from Sinai. It seemed strange to me that most of the demonstrators were orthodox Jews. After all, it was a purely logical issue: the Arabs are not to be trusted, that's what we've learned from day one. Well, lucky for the country, the government and the majority of the people employed a different logic, and the peace with Egypt was not missed.

But the throw-us-into-the-sea paradigm immediately found new fields for play. There was an inconvenient reality on the Northern border, and even though the forces on the other side (Palestinians! Phew! had strictly adhered to a secret cease-fire for about a year, they were Arabs and therefore could not be trusted..."

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">in palestinian school books there is no Israel, its all mentioned as palestine<span id='postcolor'>

To this it could also be added what the refusenik Tamir Sorek writes:

"...Palestinian Arabs (upon whose confiscated land the new residents settled), who were denied all civil rights, including the right to immigrate to the civil part of the state. At the schools of those with rights they continued to teach that discrimination on the basis of racial, ethnic, national or religious background is a horrible thing against which human beings must struggle. In that context many hours were devoted to studying the racism that was aimed at the Jews in Europe, yet no classes were devoted to discuss the condition of the non-citizens of the state, residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip."

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">no! the golan heights were syrian, there were no pals there. the only ppl that were there are Druze who are respected part of our country now, and i had the honor to serve with quite a few. they are bunch of decent ppl and fierce fighters. <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Contrary to what Scout says, the Golan Druze are very anti-Israel and are very pro-Syrian. This is in major contrast to the remaining Druze in Israel who are exemplary citizens to whom Israel does not pay sufficient grattitude to, IMO. <span id='postcolor'>

These 2 quotes by you scout and you Avon shows that the Druze people, living in the 'occupied' area of Golan heights, actually were integrated in the Israeli society (or maybe you Avon means that they were not integrated?); in contrast to the Palestinians living in the other still 'occupied' areas from the six day war. How comes that?

Now please dont take this post as an effort from me to flame/silence you, but I'm really interested in your view about these 'details'

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 17 2002,18:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the palestinians just want us to pull out all the way back to europe and the US. thats all. it seems you are all thinking in too western terms ppl.

if no one understood it, the idea is to kick us outa here, if not why didnt they accept Baraks proposal? he gave em literally all they wanted!

and another question: when they'll start shelling us across the border, who will take care of them? the UN? just like they are doion now in Lebanon?

thats what give this plan a low prioroty for now.<span id='postcolor'>

If you pull-out from the occupied areas, you'll secure total support from the international community. Then you'll be the GOOD guys and they'll be the BAD guys. Israelis with their western values and manners are far more marketable to public than the other side, so in an event of a pull-out, there will be an enormous popularity bounce for you. It's only your current lebensraum policies that have annoyed some of the euros.

If the arabs shell you across the border, you strike back with arty and planes. Bomb the shit out of all military targets you can find. Nobody is going to whine, since you have the backing of the whole international community. I don't really see how it could be worse than the current situation.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 17 2002,17:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, YES! Let Ĺland join Sweden! <span id='postcolor'>

The point is that they don't WANT to join Sweden, because you wouldn't give them any of the benefits they get from us. That's why we should kick them out.

[Pete 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 18 2002,09:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 17 2002,17:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, YES! Let Ĺland join Sweden! <span id='postcolor'>

The point is that they don't WANT to join Sweden, because you wouldn't give them any of the benefits they get from us. That's why we should kick them out.  <span id='postcolor'>

how about handing it over to russia in exhange of the parts of karelia lost in the war?

[Pete 1]

ooops...hrrmmm

[scout 0]

pukko - many ppl in israel have different views. i disagree with many things that were said by those who u qouted

what peace do we have with the egyptians? a cold peace no more then a cease fire. inreturn of the whole sinai we've got a quiet border maybe, but they are still printing hate book, the zion elders protocols and all this stuff, and its done by the government printers. israeli buisnessmen have great difficulty to do buisness, and many unions have boycotted israel from the start.

all this woderful peace in return of an area bigger then israel itself.

the only country we have quite good relationship is Jordan, but we had informal relationship since 1967, when there were trade agreements and israel actually saved Jordan from the hands of the syrians in sep. 1970.

i believe that those men have nothing wrong with their morality but they look upon things with pink glasses. they have a severe sindrom of wishful thinking just as those who are on the other side of the political map. those views they quoted are extreme right, and the conviniently ignore some difficulties their views hold. not they nor the extreme right have realistic views.

ur right, we cant give up all the teritory, but we can offer territory the same size in exchange, and Barak also did that too, still to no avail.

the golan druze accepted us, and were willing to join israel with all the duties and rights, on the other hand since day one, the pals started using terror. thats the difference. again, i dont say that was a correct decision but i say there was a diffrenece in the ATTITUDES! of the groups.

oligo- what will we do when they'll start to fire mortars from the village square? or fire AT missile from the roofs of the houses or fire HMG's from windows and mosques? they do it partly today, and the hizzbula did it in lebanon.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pete @ April 18 2002,16:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 18 2002,09:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 17 2002,17:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, YES! Let Ĺland join Sweden! <span id='postcolor'>

The point is that they don't WANT to join Sweden, because you wouldn't give them any of the benefits they get from us. That's why we should kick them out.  <span id='postcolor'>

how about handing it over to russia in exhange of the parts of karelia lost in the war?<span id='postcolor'>

I was more thinking in terms of Finland getting back to Sweden again, I mean - for your own good

[FallenPaladin 0]

What`re you talking about? Aland, where`s that?

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 18 2002,16:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">oligo- what will we do when they'll start to fire mortars from the village square? or fire AT missile from the roofs of the houses or fire HMG's from windows and mosques? they do it partly today, and the hizzbula did it in lebanon.<span id='postcolor'>

You do what the yanks do in Afganistan. You place a missile to the village square, boom, no more mortar. All the civvies killed can be labeled as 'collateral damage' and ignored. What I am saying is that you have to marked yourself better. When you're occupying areas, you're bad and palis are freedom fighters. When you're not occupying anything and somebody attacks, you get the sympathy because you're innocent and so on like the people in WTC.

HMGs and AT missiles cannot be fired across borders. And if they do that, then you fire back across the border at the bastards.

Fighting on your own land or slashing briefly over borders = GOOD. Fighting on somebody elses land and putting settlers there = BAD.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 18 2002,16:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was more thinking in terms of Finland getting back to Sweden again, I mean - for your own good <span id='postcolor'>

Right. I'll be happy to suicide bomb Stockholm in the name of FLO.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Which politican will suceed in breaking this devils circle? None, from both sides and none from the US and none from Europe. Those minds are too old and too preset! I am a bit dissapointed of all universities in the Middle East. While European, South American, Russian, Asian and American students regularly fight and demonstrate for peace and equality, student in the Arab countries shout stupid old religious and fundamentalist propaganda! And from the students in Israel you hear nothing! Basically nothing! Pretty disapointing for a young generation which in other countries suceeded in provoking whole revolutions and kicking out governments!

[scout 0]

oligo- just to give u a sense of space- u can shoot a 120 mortar from Tul-karem and hit the med sea!

u can use a pistol to hit a pal-village from my window!

this is not europe and Alland or whatever.

[Pukko 0]

Thanks for your answer scout, Respect

(btw, it seems like you think of them as extreme left, while they seem to be equally disliked by both right and left for different reasons)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And from the students in Israel you hear nothing! Basically nothing! Pretty disapointing for a young generation which in other countries suceeded in provoking whole revolutions and kicking out governments! <span id='postcolor'>

Also the students seems to be stuck between left and right:

"The people upon whom the responsibility for suppressing the uprising has been inflicted are the students of the confusing educational system of "the Greater State of Israel." That system on the one hand preached democracy and condemned discrimination based on racial origin, yet on the other hand drew maps that gave legitimacy to a non-democratic racist regime. Today, hundreds of diligent students who learned the essence of democracy in civics classes are demanding to implement its principles in reality, or at least not to demand that they defend in practice the existence of a non-democratic regime. By this deed they are accused by the right wing of treachery and by the left wing of undermining the principles of a democratic regime (! )"

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 18 2002,03:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you pull-out from the occupied areas, you'll secure total support from the international community. Then you'll be the GOOD guys and they'll be the BAD guys. Israelis with their western values and manners are far more marketable to public than the other side, so in an event of a pull-out, there will be an enormous popularity bounce for you. It's only your current lebensraum policies that have annoyed some of the euros.

If the arabs shell you across the border, you strike back with arty and planes. Bomb the shit out of all military targets you can find. Nobody is going to whine, since you have the backing of the whole international community. I don't really see how it could be worse than the current situation.<span id='postcolor'>

nice fairytale.

[scout 0]

typical but quite wrong, the blame of the educational system is easy to make, but i dont remember anything of this kind. and any way, most 16 year old kids already have pretty good idea about politics and they are quite indpendant. but all of them are divided equelly between right and left. by the time most finished army, they also know somethings from field exp.

the man just found himself an easy target.

what i do remember is huge arguments about almost anything, promoted by our teachers.

in campuses there is the same thing. i might remind u that almost all students serve as reserves and they are mature and deep thinkers with large exp. on whats going on, and they too have almost every opinion from extreme left ro right.

i'd say that these refuseniks arent liked by the left because they in an essence chose a way that is ruining the ability of israel to defend itself. this is the same thing as if any military would go on strike! its unacceptable!

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 18 2002,16:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 18 2002,16:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was more thinking in terms of Finland getting back to Sweden again, I mean - for your own good <span id='postcolor'>

Right. I'll be happy to suicide bomb Stockholm in the name of FLO.  <span id='postcolor'>

And I'll be saying:

Kuka helvitti heitti mustikkoita?!?

.. because it's the only thing I know in Finish

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you pull-out from the occupied areas, you'll secure total support from the international community. Then you'll be the GOOD guys and they'll be the BAD guys. Israelis with their western values and manners are far more marketable to public than the other side, so in an event of a pull-out, there will be an enormous popularity bounce for you. It's only your current lebensraum policies that have annoyed some of the euros.

If the arabs shell you across the border, you strike back with arty and planes. Bomb the shit out of all military targets you can find. Nobody is going to whine, since you have the backing of the whole international community. I don't really see how it could be worse than the current situation.<span id='postcolor'>

That's all nice and well, but that won't give any guarantees that the suicide bombings and other terrorist acts will stop.

[Pete 1]

That's all nice and well, but that won't give any guarantees that the suicide bombings and other terrorist acts will stop.

stop?...propably never, but the first goal would be to decrease it dramatically (not shortsighted as this war they have now, but longterm)

there are to my knowledge several different indepedant groups there, different goals...some seek destruction of israel, some a palestinian state...with a state atleast some of them would be stopped and the ones seeking for destruction of israel would have a lot less chances to recruit "martyrs"

it will have to happen someday, the sooner the better imho....

[nordin dk 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 18 2002,21:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ April 18 2002,16:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 18 2002,16:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was more thinking in terms of Finland getting back to Sweden again, I mean - for your own good <span id='postcolor'>

Right. I'll be happy to suicide bomb Stockholm in the name of FLO.  <span id='postcolor'>

And I'll be saying:

Kuka helvitti heitti mustikkoita?!?

.. because it's the only thing I know in Finish <span id='postcolor'>

You swedish people better stop with the occupationist ideas, or we'll take back Skĺne, Halland & Blekinge

[Longinius 1]

"You swedish people better stop with the occupationist ideas, or we'll take back Skĺne, Halland & Blekinge"

Please, take us!! We want cheaper beer!! Lower taxes!! And pölse!!