Mid east

[McH 0]

Be ashamed to be an Israeli?! LOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!! give me a break!!!!!!!

What do you know about this conflict??? only things you hear on the damn europian media!!

what about all the innocent ISRAEILI CIVILIANS who murdured by palastinians??? i guess its ok?!

and about sharon and arafat... sharon is the prime minister maybe 2 years, arafat much much much more!!! so what?! all the prime ministers we will choose are bad? and arafat dont?!

P.S

Sharon is gonna be elected once again this year, hopefuly!

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (McH @ Dec. 14 2002,10:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Be ashamed to be an Israeli?! LOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!! give me a break!!!!!!!<span id='postcolor'>

You are obviously too ashamed to tell us whether or not you live in Israel or on one of the Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 14 2002,02:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Vast majority, while the rest tries to get funds back to Israel to fund the massacre.  And the rest will use their corporate and political power to benefit Israel as much as possible...<span id='postcolor'>

Something tells me you are not getting any of this "info" from CTV or the CBC.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 14 2002,02:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you said Israel gets all those nice lumps of money from the US because Christians or Protestants are running the show there you would probably be wrong.

Also if you said that Palestinians are getting murdered because of the Christians or Hindus(etc) in power in Israel you would be wrong.  Right?<span id='postcolor'>

There's enough politics involved without having to blame religious groups - unless you really want to help Sharon.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 14 2002,02:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I know it's not politcally correct to lump them like that, but I still have a right to say it, I am very frustrated with how Jews are acting in the U.S. and Israel.<span id='postcolor'>

If I happened to know a few French-Canadians who were stupid, lazy anti-Semites, would that give me the "right" to say they are all like that?  Sure it would, even though I would sound like a fool.

How many Jews do you know who send money to Israel?  How many Jews do you know?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 14 2002,02:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And the U.S. got payed on 11th of September for what?<span id='postcolor'>The US is suffering.  Hitting them more with comments like that will not change anything for the better.

[McH 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 14 2002,13:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (McH @ Dec. 14 2002,10:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Be ashamed to be an Israeli?! LOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!! give me a break!!!!!!!<span id='postcolor'>

You are obviously too ashamed to tell us whether or not you live in Israel or on one of the Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territories.<span id='postcolor'>

Too ashamed?? no!

I do live in one of the settelments, 5Km from the green line, which is nor far.

And there is an Arabic villige next to our settelment, and we are with very good relationship with them!

For Exemple, there was a time not long ago, that some people from the villige didnt have a job, so Mails were sent to ALL the homes in our settelment to hire Workers from the villige so they will have a job.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 14 2002,08:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'> Infact partly I do, I just have very special ways of finding some things out. lol

I am only concerned with the truth of the matter, I don't care if you make me look bad.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 14 2002,02:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you said Israel gets all those nice lumps of money from the US because Christians or Protestants are running the show there you would probably be wrong.

Also if you said that Palestinians are getting murdered because of the Christians or Hindus(etc) in power in Israel you would be wrong. Right?<span id='postcolor'>

There's enough politics involved without having to blame religious groups - unless you really want to help Sharon. <span id='postcolor'> Okay fine, I know this is a no win discussion even if it's true. And to set it straight I do not belong to any religious group.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 14 2002,02:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I know it's not politcally correct to lump them like that, but I still have a right to say it, I am very frustrated with how Jews are acting in the U.S. and Israel.<span id='postcolor'>

If I happened to know a few French-Canadians who were stupid, lazy anti-Semites, would that give me the "right" to say they are all like that? Sure it would, even though I would sound like a fool.<span id='postcolor'> I never said all, really, that's not what I am telling you!!! I would never even think such things, even under pressure.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How many Jews do you know who send money to Israel? How many Jews do you know?

<span id='postcolor'> I "know" quite few Jews personally, I know many many people who once had Jewish family members. Jewish blood as some people call it. I know of Jews who use their powers to help Israel to the maximum. I also know quite a few people with Jewish backgrounds that are "scientists" and share my disqust with Israeli and American policies.

Don't try and turn me into some evil anti-simetic bastard, because you are creating a lie.

Any further information is "top secret"... (this means I don't want to tell you for my own reasons, just like a government)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 14 2002,02:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And the U.S. got payed on 11th of September for what?<span id='postcolor'>The US is suffering. Hitting them more with comments like that will not change anything for the better.<span id='postcolor'> I disagree, this is a fact, Osama told Americans straight out a couple of times about this, yet many Americans insist they were hit because they have freedom.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 14 2002,16:o4)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't try and turn me into some evil anti-simetic bastard, because you are creating a lie.<span id='postcolor'>

Believe me, I'm not trying to do that at all.  But you make it very easy for others to do that when you start blaming the entire Jewish community for Israel's policies.  And if that happens, most folks will discard all the other important things you have to say.  I really don't want that to happen.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 14 2002,10:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 14 2002,16:o4)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't try and turn me into some evil anti-simetic bastard, because you are creating a lie.<span id='postcolor'>

Believe me, I'm not trying to do that at all. But you make it very easy for others to do that when you start blaming the entire Jewish community for Israel's policies. And if that happens, most folks will discard all the other important things you have to say. I really don't want that to happen.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok thanks, I realize that now.

I'm just saying that Religion does play a major part in this conflict, just as with most other conflicts around the world.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (McH @ Dec. 14 2002,14:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I do live in one of the settelments, 5Km from the green line, which is nor far.<span id='postcolor'>

Another forum member from Israel once said:</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 28 2002,20:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...the chief reason for settlers was more the quality of life and the cheap land then Ideology<span id='postcolor'>

What do you think?

[McH 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 14 2002,16:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (McH @ Dec. 14 2002,14:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I do live in one of the settelments, 5Km from the green line, which is nor far.<span id='postcolor'>

Another forum member from Israel once said:</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 28 2002,20:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...the chief reason for settlers was more the quality of life and the cheap land then Ideology<span id='postcolor'>

What do you think?<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, in some sort of way its true, but not all of it.

There is more life quality and its cheaper than there rest of the country, but thats in specific places. look at the settelments In Hebron, Near Ramallah and Jenin... The settlers there are atually there just because of Ideology!! nothing else!!

One thing i want to mention, If you go to the Villige near my home, and ask under what goverment they want to be - the palastinians or israel - the answer will be Israel!!

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (McH @ Dec. 14 2002,18:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One thing i want to mention, If you go to the Villige near my home, and ask under what goverment they want to be - the palastinians or israel - the answer will be Israel!!<span id='postcolor'>

Yes... and very rarely is an act of terrorism ever caused by a Palestinian Arab living within Israel as an Israeli citizen.

The main obstacle has always been that Israel could never allow the entire populations of the Palestinian territories to become Israeli citizens if it would result in the nation having a non-Jewish majority.  Without that obstacle, the entire conflict would have ended 80 years ago.

Here's another question for you...

When Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt, a large number of Israeli settlers stayed there and became Egyptian citizens.  For them, the most important thing was that they'd returned to the biblical holy land and it did not matter what was written on their passports.  What will you do if your settlement ever becomes part of a Palestinian state?  Stay or leave?

[McH 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 14 2002,21:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (McH @ Dec. 14 2002,18:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One thing i want to mention, If you go to the Villige near my home, and ask under what goverment they want to be - the palastinians or israel - the answer will be Israel!!<span id='postcolor'>

Yes... and very rarely is an act of terrorism ever caused by a Palestinian Arab living within Israel as an Israeli citizen.

The main obstacle has always been that Israel could never allow the entire populations of the Palestinian territories to become Israeli citizens if it would result in the nation having a non-Jewish majority.  Without that obstacle, the entire conflict would have ended 80 years ago.

Here's another question for you...

When Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt, a large number of Israeli settlers stayed there and became Egyptian citizens.  For them, the most important thing was that they'd returned to the biblical holy land and it did not matter what was written on their passports.  What will you do if your settlement ever becomes part of a Palestinian state?  Stay or leave?<span id='postcolor'>

if will be ever peace, and ill have to leave my home for peace, i will leave my home. because im not leave here because of ideology. ( we are Far from religious sites ) But my settelment wont be return because its Very strategic place.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (McH @ Dec. 14 2002,15:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">( we are Far from religious sites ) But my settelment wont be return because its Very strategic place.<span id='postcolor'>

That statement smells like trouble...

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

bn880: no hard feelings I hope. Just trying to poke you a little on the other board.

--------------------

Ok, here is my rant of the day. I have not read too many posts so here goes. Sit down and get a drink cause I am letting the shit hit the fan.

The Palestinians are NOT in occupied territory. This False, rubbish and pure bull-shite. Actually, I guess you could say that they are occupying land owned by Israel. It's not the other way around. In 1967, Israel was viciously attacked by several nations including Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. Their purpose was to wipe Israel off the face of the map. In the 6-Day war, Israel fended off the attackers and defeated them and re-took land (Goland heights, Gaza strip, west bank..etc) that once belonged to them some 2,500 years ago. This was within their right. Yes, this was originally Israeli territory. If anybody's been occupying it prior to 1967, it's been the arabs.

After the war, Israel gave the arabs in those re-captured areas the choice to either stay and live under Israeli rule or leave. Some left and some stayed. The ones that stayed are complaining that this land is theirs. However, if one looks at historical maps, one can clearly see that this is Israeli land although it has changed hands several times. They want an independent state pure and simple. Unfortunately for them, they do not have the power to start a revolution and fight for independence as has been done all through the ages.

If the US was not in the way (a friend to Israel), they would be attacked again. Since the arab nations cannot gang up on Israel as in the past, the US is being pressured to accept the idea of a Palestinian state, and terrorism is being used as a means to coerce Israel into giving in to their demands.

The bottom line is that the arabs hate each other but they hate Israel more, and this common cause is what unites them. There will never be peace over there. There has never been peace, and there never will until one side is completely destroyed. Unfortunately for the arab nations, Israel will always exist. As soon as we realize this, we should not waste our time in peace missions. It will never happen.

PS: read up on the 6-Day war if you want the facts. Look it up on the internet. When you put this in perspective, you will see the palestinians are not innocent victims of Israeli aggression. They chose to stay.

[Longinius 1]

"Their purpose was to wipe Israel off the face of the map. In the 6-Day war, Israel fended off the attackers and defeated them and re-took land (Goland heights, Gaza strip, west bank..etc) that once belonged to them some 2,500 years ago. This was within their right."

This point is a mute one, since all contries are based on land that once belonged to other people. Using an argument like that doesnt really mean anything, since by that logic America belongs to the native indians, Australia to the native aboriginals etc. The fact is that there was no established jewish state in the area before Israel. There were however many people of non-jewish descent living there.

"If the US was not in the way (a friend to Israel), they would be attacked again."

Yes, they probably would. Any idea why?

"The bottom line is that the arabs hate each other but they hate Israel more, and this common cause is what unites them. There will never be peace over there."

Not as long as Israel exists in its current form, no.

"There has never been peace, and there never will until one side is completely destroyed. Unfortunately for the arab nations, Israel will always exist. As soon as we realize this, we should not waste our time in peace missions. It will never happen."

And arabs will always exist as well.

"PS: read up on the 6-Day war if you want the facts. Look it up on the internet. When you put this in perspective, you will see the palestinians are not innocent victims of Israeli aggression. They chose to stay. "

Yes, just like most people would chose to stay in their homes, on their land, where they lived all their life.

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

This puts things in perspective. It's sad that things have been turned and twisted around making Israel look like the bad guy.

Egyptian President Gamal Nasser said on May 27 1967, "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." On May 28, he added: "We will not accept any...coexistence with Israel...Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel....The war with Israel is in effect since 1948."

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 17 2002,14:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have not read too many posts...<span id='postcolor'>

no shit

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 17 2002,16:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">no sh**<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, there's a few tons of it here.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 17 2002,10:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 17 2002,16:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">no sh**<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, there's a few tons of it here. <span id='postcolor'>

Then I guess we are all just full of it.

[Bernadotte 0]

(Bernadotte re-enters thread, holding nose and watching where he steps.)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (McH @ Dec. 14 2002,10:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sharon is gonna be elected once again this year, hopefuly!<span id='postcolor'>

I think you're right.  Any chance that the Likud party corruption investigation could get in the way of Sharon's victory (hopefully)?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Dec. 17 2002,20:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think you're right.  Any chance that the Likud party corruption investigation could get in the way of Sharon's victory (hopefully)?<span id='postcolor'>

Monkey see, monkey do.

And this is far from the first time for Labor.

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> This point is a mute one, since all countries are based on land that once belonged to other people. Using an argument like that doesnt really mean anything, since by that logic America belongs to the native indians, Australia to the native aboriginals etc. <span id='postcolor'>

The historical argument:

Do you mean "mute" or moot? Regardless, it is an important point because the argument has been made that the areas in dispute are arab territories. History (historical maps) shows that this is false. The arabs claim these areas are "occupied" which signifies they feel Israel is "occupying" their land. False, false. Completely false. Even if this was true, see next point.

Survival of the fittest argument:

Yes, civilizations conquer, and this really is what matters most. Regardless of who owns what, if someone is powerful enough to take it from another, then they take possession of it. The disputed areas were under Israeli control some 2,500 years ago but they lost it. In this century, they were able to claim it back by conquering other nations (1948, 1967). So, Israel includes the west bank, the Golan heights as well as the Gaza strip.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The fact is that there was no established jewish state in the area before Israel. There were however many people of non-jewish descent living there.<span id='postcolor'>

No. False. Israel existed as a nation thousands of years ago. Please see this site on the evolution of Israel: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/israel/maps-evolution.htm

Now in regards to my prediction that there will never be peace, you said:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not as long as Israel exists in its current form, no.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, you are right. It can also be said that as long as the Palestinians "exist" in their current form, there will never be peace. It's not a one-way street. The bottom line is that Israel has a right to exist and will exist in its present form. They would be foolish to give in to the Palestinian demands--as well as to the demands of the international community.

The real solution to peace is for the US to let Israel do whatever it takes to secure peace which is to crush and destroy the terrorists. In 1967, the US stayed out of the conflict and peace was achieved in 6 days. If the US would get out of the way, Israel can secure peace. If you disagree or are confused, see my "Survival of the fittest argument" above.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 18 2002,14:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> ...the argument has been made that the areas in dispute are arab territories. History (historical maps) shows that this is false.<span id='postcolor'>

Really?  Which historical maps show that the disputed areas are not Arab?  And since when does a historical map allow you to remove someone's legal title to a piece of land because of ethnicity?  Or perhaps you are saying, according to your historical map argument, that it was wrong for the Nazis to kill Europe's Jews, but it was ok to deport them?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 18 2002,14:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Survival of the fittest argument:

Yes, civilizations conquer, and this really is what matters most. Regardless of who owns what, if someone is powerful enough to take it from another, then they take possession of it. The disputed areas were under Israeli control some 2,500 years ago but they lost it. In this century, they were able to claim it back by conquering other nations (1948, 1967). So, Israel includes the west bank, the Golan heights as well as the Gaza strip.<span id='postcolor'>

But biblical Israel extended much further.  What is stopping Israel, with all its overwhelming might from "claiming back" much of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and the Sinai?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 18 2002,14:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The real solution to peace is for the US to let Israel do whatever it takes to secure peace which is to crush and destroy the terrorists. ... If the US would get out of the way, Israel can secure peace.<span id='postcolor'>

Really?  In what way is the US obstructing Israel?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 18 2002,14:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

My comments as follows:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Really?  Which historical maps show that the disputed areas are not Arab?  <span id='postcolor'>

The arab argument is based on the premise that they were there first--It's their land. The historical maps (see any history book on western civilization; see maps of said area) show that the disputed areas were controlled by Israel many years ago. Sure, other groups including the Babylonians and Romans controlled the disputed areas. But the idea that the disputed areas are arab land is simply not true.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And since when does a historical map allow you to remove someone's legal title to a piece of land because of ethnicity?<span id='postcolor'>

Under my theory, "Survival of the fittest" overrides any map designation past or present. In other words, Israel has conquered their territory so it is theirs regardless of what a map says.

Your question is too vague. Whose legal title? Whose ethnicity? I am inferring that you think that the arabs have a "legal title" to the disputed areas. If so, why?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Or perhaps you are saying, according to your historical map argument, that it was wrong for the Nazis to kill Europe's Jews, but it was ok to deport them?<span id='postcolor'>

Do not put words in my mouth.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What is stopping Israel, with all its overwhelming might from "claiming back" much of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and the Sinai?<span id='postcolor'>

Political pressure from the US and from the international community is the answer. That's all there is to it. Now, I am not sure Israel has a goal to reclaim these lands.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In what way is the US obstructing Israel?<span id='postcolor'>

Political pressure and threats of withholding money/aid are the answers. Follow this argument: The US needs arab support for war on terrorism, and arabs hate Israel, the US is a friend to Israel, so US keeps Israel from flexing its military might through political pressure to keep arabs happy. Folks, it is no more complicated than that.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 18 2002,08:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Survival of the fittest argument:

Yes, civilizations conquer, and this really is what matters most. Regardless of who owns what, if someone is powerful enough to take it from another, then they take possession of it. The disputed areas were under Israeli control some 2,500 years ago but they lost it. In this century, they were able to claim it back by conquering other nations (1948, 1967). So, Israel includes the west bank, the Golan heights as well as the Gaza strip.<span id='postcolor'>

Sure I know what you mean by that, but the lessons from Hitlers conquering Nazis taught the world to unite and agree not to allow conquering nations to conquer like that any more. Obviously people do not change in a few generations, policies are put in place, information is recorded, laws are made, that's how we grow socially without improving genetically.

Unfortunately, many countries ignore the past, remove important policies, withdraw from agreements etc.

So we are back at square one with many immature policies of Israel and U.S, when compared to most of Europe at least.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 18 2002,16:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> The arab argument is based on the premise that they were there first--It's their land.<span id='postcolor'>

No, that is not the "arab argument."  It may be Palestinian Arab land, but not because they were there first.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 18 2002,16:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The historical maps (see any history book on western civilization; see maps of said area) show that the disputed areas were controlled by Israel many years ago.<span id='postcolor'>

Umm... how many years ago?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 18 2002,16:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Under my theory, "Survival of the fittest" overrides any map designation past or present.<span id='postcolor'>

Doesn't it concern you that your theory breaks international laws against gaining territory by force?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 18 2002,16:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am inferring that you think that the arabs have a "legal title" to the disputed areas. If so, why?<span id='postcolor'>

Ottoman Land Code of 1858

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 18 2002,16:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Or perhaps you are saying, according to your historical map argument, that it was wrong for the Nazis to kill Europe's Jews, but it was ok to deport them?<span id='postcolor'>Do not put words in my mouth.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not.  Perhaps you didn't notice the question mark at the end of my sentence.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 18 2002,16:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In what way is the US obstructing Israel?<span id='postcolor'>

Political pressure and threats of withholding money/aid are the answers.<span id='postcolor'>

The US has not threatened to withhold aid from Israel for ~11 years.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 18 2002,16:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Follow this argument: The US needs arab support for war on terrorism, and arabs hate Israel, the US is a friend to Israel, so US keeps Israel from flexing its military might through political pressure to keep arabs happy.<span id='postcolor'>

This argument could only be used for the past 15 months.  How was the US obstructing Israel before that?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 18 2002,16:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Folks, it is no more complicated than that.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes it is.