Close Quarter Combat is impossible in Arma2

[vilas 473]

As for the AI seeing though vegetation, grass clutter and bushes are two different things. I never felt that the AI could see me behind bushes. They can hear you though...

in Arma1 i was shot dead countless times when i was sneaking down in grass, i could not see anything, but guard 100 meters away always shot me

thats why in A2 i turned grass off and use lowest terrain details if i want some play

simply for me it happened so many times that i am sure grass/schrubs/some bushes are wrongly made

in A1 it was horror to sneak and be shot because AI noticed you from 100, 200 meters while you were prone in Sahranii forests

[Hachiman 10]

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I find the enemy AI performs best when the difficulty settings and skill levels are cranked up high as possible.
If I can get the jump on unsuspecting enemy AI troops then I have a reasonably good chance of surviving the firefight, however if the enemy AI is aware of my presence inside buildings then it's absolutely essential to frag each room before entering otherwise I will be leaving the building in a body bag.

[Scrub 0]

From reading these responses, I think we have (at least) two things going on here for judging AI CQB.

1st- The AI based on skill level, variables, phase of the moon, is not totally consistent in it's execution of capacities for us to judge on.

2nd- (Thank you Hatchiman for the vid) I think we have biased our expectations of AI. When I'm playing against humans, I've seen (and done) what that video portrays in CQB.

If I hear someone walking up, I hold at the nearest corner and zap as soon as a body part is visible. If I see someone running behind a building, I track for opportunistic window shots, and failing that, the other side of the building for that 'coming' snapshot. Likewise, I've also f___ed up and blown chances as well.

If we can pause, track, and predict.. Why can't they?

Edited November 25, 2009 by Scrub

[instagoat 133]

If I hear someone walking up, I hold at the nearest corner and zap as soon as a body part is visible. If I see someone running behind a building, I track for opportunistic window shots, and failing that, the other side of the building for that 'coming' snapshot. Likewise, I've also f___ed up and blown chances as well.

If we can pause, track, and predict.. Why can't they?

AI is incredibly difficult to construct so it works without hogging system resources, while still being able to work with meaningful entity numbers (hundreds in case of Arma), and having the individuals execute their maneuvers in a clever and believable manner.

If you download the FSM Editor, you will see that it takes a pretty complex system of choices to make an AI work, and every new variable you introduce into the system or want to handle needs to be implemented with as many possible outcomes as possible, and without creating stoppages inside the system.

For example, if an AI moves out into a street it needs to check if there are friendlies nearby, and if yes, where are they looking and am I covering my correct sector. Are there possible hideouts of enemies nearby, if yes, am I able to cover them all, or am I unable to do it? If not, are nearby squadmates able to cover adequately or is team effort necessary to achieve the task. If I move from this position, will I expose myself to potential enemy fire: if yes, how can I minimise my chance of getting shot?

It´s a virtually endless cycle of decisions, with near infinite amounts of situations to be evaluated at any time. A thing as simple as hearing an enemy, estimating their position and setting up for a shot at their estimated point of emergence is very complicated for an AI. How do you simulate the patience to do it, for example? How do you make the AI estimate for how long it should wait before moving on, if the enemy doesn´t emerge where they "expected" them? The hearing part isn´t difficult to do (the AI does this pretty well, actually, much more accurately than a human. Which is a limitation of the digital medium within which it exists, in my opinion, and something that will stick with AIs for a long time to come.), it´s the reaction to noticing an enemy that is complicated to do.

I find it amazing to watch the AI at work, especially in smaller settings where it can make full use of the processing power it is granted, without needing to drop cycles because there are too many units on the map, and then they can be pretty life-like. There are a -lot- of shortcomings, but I think those are results of the limitations in processing power, general code, and the lack of a standardized system for AI, something like a DirectX equivalent.

[TangoRomeo 10]

My main gripe is not so much with AI precision, decision making or terrain negotiation, although it does have a noticeable effect on the SP/CoOp experience, but the control mechanics. The overall sluggishness adversely affects fluid and precise player movement, especially in confined spaces.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Other games AI is for pussies.

I have just been replaying the first single player scenario mission with the new betas; serious fun! I happened to have a save point just before I met an AI MG man behind the building with semi circle arch over its yard entrance. The time after the save that we met was just random enough to always be different. Sometimes I get the jump on him some times I don't then both of us end up with a spray and pray battle from 1m to 25m, with him taking the same sort of micro seconds a player does in PvP to get on me and rounds out.

I kept taking him on because the BRDM comes up the road just after this and I have sprint up the hill to grab an AT from the enemy ammo dump and jump up and fire in 7 seconds that was hard, hint for the record the RPG don't cut it, even if you manage to kill the gun the crew jump out and shoot before I can reload, or grab an alternate weapon.

Kind Regards walker

[maturin 12]

does the AI's sight get blocked by smoke grenades? (Im getting arma 2 soon. )

Yes, you can hide in smoke. They will probably suppress you though. Sometimes the AI fires in my general direction after I have run out of their line of sight and am 800m away.

[Whiskey_Tango 10]

My main gripe is not so much with AI precision, decision making or terrain negotiation, although it does have a noticeable effect on the SP/CoOp experience, but the control mechanics. The overall sluggishness adversely affects fluid and precise player movement, especially in confined spaces.

i dont really have that problem with fluid controls, it is sluggish to some extent but thats supposed to simulate the weight of the weapon

[norsu 180]

it is sluggish to some extent but thats supposed to simulate the weight of the weapon

I don't buy that really. It's sluggish because all movement is animation based, hence you'll never have precise control over your character. This works fine in outdoors but indoors it's a nightmare. I've been killed many times in coop just because my character got stuck in a doorway which really is laughable for a 2009 game.

[vilas 473]

I don't buy that really. It's sluggish because all movement is animation based, hence you'll never have precise control over your character. This works fine in outdoors but indoors it's a nightmare. I've been killed many times in coop just because my character got stuck in a doorway which really is laughable for a 2009 game.

yes, you stuck, cause model of weapon have geometry lod

or you stuck with short weapon as AKSU ?

concerning weight - as i remember one parameter in config simulates heavier/lighter weapon

[That guy 10]

Ai in the latest beta is ferocious in CQB. enemy AI that is

just spent 2 hours playing one mission where damn enemies just poke thier heads out and give terminal lead poisoning to me and my team mates

Best thing to improve CQC in Arma II is to have an auto lowering feature for weapons. get too close to a wall, have your weapon collide with door etc, weapon quickly lowers, then goes back up once obstacle has been cleared. having iron sites up will cancel the effect (and will make you get stuck)

[Alex72 1]

After practise you can get very good in ARMA. During DM's i sometimes host for a laugh i most often end up with tons of kills. ARMA demands more "multi-tasking" from you button wise when CQB'ing (require a lot of finger skill). But it works. Just need practise.

Wich i like personally. Could it be made better? Ofcourse.

[Nazul 10]

People complain about the AI in Arma2 but take a look at other games and the scripted characters they use, cant call it AI, and Arma2 has some of the best AI ever! It has some faults but so do the people i play online with.

I dont think its unfair to be shot at quickly by the AI, I do it to them. The AI plays very realistic sometimes, and sometimes it has a spaz. it keeps getting better with the new betas.

[norsu 180]

yes, you stuck, cause model of weapon have geometry lod

or you stuck with short weapon as AKSU ?

concerning weight - as i remember one parameter in config simulates heavier/lighter weapon

I'm stuck because there's no way to tell the game I don't want to wave that weapon around in tight spots such as doorways (Vietcong and some UT mod I think had this right.) Also I'm stuck because the collision model moves with animations meaning that I can't really control my "physical" character in the game very intuitively like I can in real life and many other FPS games.

So basically I'm stuck because I can't control my character with 100% precision. For A3 I hope this in top 5 issues to be fixed one way or other.

[jakerod 254]

I'm stuck because there's no way to tell the game I don't want to wave that weapon around in tight spots such as doorways (Vietcong and some UT mod I think had this right.) Also I'm stuck because the collision model moves with animations meaning that I can't really control my "physical" character in the game very intuitively like I can in real life and many other FPS games.

So basically I'm stuck because I can't control my character with 100% precision. For A3 I hope this in top 5 issues to be fixed one way or other.

Try lowering your weapon when you go through tight spots. Its good to use it to be close to corners and lean out too or press yourself tighter to a wall. I have it mapped to the ";" or " ' " key. I don't know if that is default though.

[Scrub 0]

AI is incredibly difficult to construct so it works without hogging system resources, while still being able to work with meaningful entity numbers (hundreds in case of Arma), and having the individuals execute their maneuvers in a clever and believable manner....

Hey InstaGoat, nice post BTW.

Just wanted to clarify that I totally agree with you, and my argument was in support of what I posted, not knocking it. A2 AI is fantastic to observe, especially the later betas. They DO track, they DO hold and wait for you, they DO predict. And it's awesome to get holed by them, especially when you're thinking you're doing sooo well, you give them a chance.. And it's your last.:D

[jw custom 56]

Hey InstaGoat, nice post BTW.

Just wanted to clarify that I totally agree with you, and my argument was in support of what I posted, not knocking it. A2 AI is fantastic to observe, especially the later betas. They DO track, they DO hold and wait for you, they DO predict. And it's awesome to get holed by them, especially when you're thinking you're doing sooo well, you give them a chance.. And it's your last.:D

I can only agree that AI is amazing and have never seen equal in any other game. But just because AI is great and it's a very difficult create there's no reason to blindly say everything ok and let things be. There's many things that could be improved.

[Aelin 10]

jwcustom,why do you read into my mind?:bounce3:

[Scrub 0]

JWCustom, Aelin, I never said it could not be improved, I said "the later betas" it seems you are missing the point that it IS being improved. Please observe the true actions BIS are taking. What you are asking for is being done RIGHT NOW. :)

Be happy

[jw custom 56]

JWCustom, Aelin, I never said it could not be improved, I said "the later betas" it seems you are missing the point that it IS being improved. Please observe the true actions BIS are taking. What you are asking for is being done RIGHT NOW. :)

Be happy

I am happy and i love ArmA 2 infact i play or use the editor everyday, i wouldn't do that if i wasn't happy with it :)

Often people are so pleased and blinded by all the positive that the negative is kinda forgotten. So when these flaws are pointed out people talks about how great the AI is compared to other games etc.

P.S. yes i'm aware about the beta's i'm uptodate with'em and yes they are improving AI a lot in them :cool:

[instagoat 133]

Hey InstaGoat, nice post BTW.

Just wanted to clarify that I totally agree with you, and my argument was in support of what I posted, not knocking it. A2 AI is fantastic to observe, especially the later betas. They DO track, they DO hold and wait for you, they DO predict. And it's awesome to get holed by them, especially when you're thinking you're doing sooo well, you give them a chance.. And it's your last.:D

Ooooh, now I see! And yes, the most time I spend nowadays not actually fighting myself but watching the AI work instead. The High Command module especially lends itself to that.

I can only agree that AI is amazing and have never seen equal in any other game. But just because AI is great and it's a very difficult create there's no reason to blindly say everything ok and let things be. There's many things that could be improved.

Yeah, true. Like I said, their exploitation of cover is sometimes more than inadequate, the AI is usually very careless when rounding corners, it has trouble noticing killing zones (Such as this one I had in a big battle setup in Vybor, I think, where a BMP planted itself square on the Spring in the Village center, and the enemy AI kept running out from all sides in front of the tank. By the end of the battle, there was a ring of bodies all around the square. Another time I had a bunch of AT gunners run out into the street to kill a tank, or take cover on the wrong side of a wall, only to get gunned down in droves)

The biggest problems with the AI right now are consistency, and its persisting carelessness, as well as often, a lack of patience. The beta patches have done a lot to improve them, especially in terms of Unit coherency, and I´m hopeful that we will get scores of improvements.

Especially because, if BIS really wants to make OA fly in Urban combat, the AI needs to become supremely proficient in that field. Call me utopian, but I believe that now that there´s movement in there, it will 8)

As for the difficulty, I´m a believer in the notion that a Game like Arma, which tries to simulate War as it actually is, and not as the Camera sees it, should not be fair in the strictest sense. OFPs AI was ruthless, and if you made a mistake, it killed you. Arma 2 is, actually, more tame in that regard. It still forces you to really ponder about wether or not it´s a wise Idea to round the next corner, while still leaving you a chance to respond if you do take fire. Plus, practice makes perfect. (And I for one am far from that, after playing BIS Games ever since OFPs demo was released.)

Cheers

[Guest]

Simply Put, in the right environment Arma 2's AI is simply amazing. No AI can perform as well as Arma 2 in these situations.

However, in other environments Arma 2 has some of the worst AI you will se in a game. For example, inside a building.

The good side hugely outweigh's the bad side, but if these CQB issues could be fixed the AI would have astounding quality.

[Hachiman 10]

OFPs AI was ruthless, and if you made a mistake, it killed you. Arma 2 is, actually, more tame in that regard.

I find when playing in an urban environment if you select all the highest possible difficulty settings, set the enemy AI skill level to maximum, set thier behaviour as 'combat' and use the Random House Patrol script then the enemy AI is absolutely merciless. The AI isn't invincible but there is little room for human error, particularly if the fighting takes place inside a house or building.

Maybe it's because we use different combinations of mods, addons, scripts, patches and beta's that our AI's behave differently?

[HyperU2 11]

It's also a little hard to shoot straight when just going from crouching to standing totally exhausts you.

[Bouben 3]

I think that biggest problem is actually AI in open enviroment with no dense cover. They are totally dumb in that kind of situation. They have no problem to stand up on a hill and got shot. And I really hate, how slow they are, when they are under fire. Just because they stop every few seconds, they get killed. CQB is sometimes really amazing, but AI in open enviroment is nearly a disaster. Be a sniper and try to shot on elite specnaz squad on airfield. After you start fire on them, they go prone (allright) but if you stop, they often stand up and do nothing. Just waiting for you to start fire again. I think, they should run away, even 2 km if needed, but they are just static, and if moving, then really slow, so you have no problem to get rid off them all. So I think that AI should stop only, if they want to shoot, or if they are in a real cover. And they should be much faster in their movement in open enviroment.

Just my experience.

And, what I want to say a long time already is that I DONT CARE IF AI IS SCRIPTED OR NOT. I would rather have scripted, FPS like, BUT reliable AI, than not functional "human random" AI, which totally destroys your gameplay. So in case of sniper example: when source of fire isnt found by AI, they should not TRACK in a open enviroment but they should run like hell for cover. And not behind light pole, or tiny tree or something like that. Script should give them command based on that, that you are playing with sniper rifle or something, so they would run behind building or totally retreat. That would be much better.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Bouben