Why americans scare me

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ April 03 2002,16:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Personally i don't understand what the fuck is wrong with all you ppl!

Belgium's population is probably 1/1 cows to human?

You probable haven't been here once!!!  Do you really believe everything that everybody tells you? Sheesh man, i'm so damn tired of ppl thinking that Belgium is a country full of stupid farmers (no offense to farmers). When you say the name Belgium, ppl immediatly think about dumb farmers who have nothing more than cows and other animals... It's all countryside stuff, that's what everybody thinks. Yes there are many farmers here (especially in the East part) but there are lots of other stuff too. Belgium is a rich country that has one of THE BEST educating systems in the WHOLE DAMN WORLD so how many ppl do you think still care about farming here? When there's the opportunity to earn a huge amount of money, there aren't a lot of farmers... Oh and there ARE a lot of guns in this country too, and a lot of dangerous stuff happen here.

It's not cuz this is a small country that we don't have a lot of criminality, some really serious stuff happend here (one of these is "de bende van Nijvel", translated to english that would be something like "the gang of Nijvel" , these guys have killed many ppl without giving a damn and even today there still isn't any real proof about who did it), cities like Antwerp, Brussels, Mechelen,... can be very dangerous at night.

I'm not attacking you Albert Schweizer, you're a really nice and cool guy and i have a lot of respect for you and all the other Forum members. I'm just a bit sick of ppl that say stuff that was correct 50 years ago but that is totally wrong in these days... just like the cow thing

Now... i said my thing Lets get back to the "accident with guns" thing, i'm not talking about all the ppl that got killed together in one country. I'm talking  about the scale of the whole population on 100 (Sry if this isn't really clear to you, i don't know all those hard words in English  ) that had this accident, so the population doesn't really matter...

Ofcourse it is possible that i made a mistake while reading the article, i while re-read it when i find it again and perhap you are right. We'll see...<span id='postcolor'>

I was born in Aachen and my parents still live there. And this is pretty in the south of Aachen, so if I take a walk I reach the point of the 'three countries' (Germany, Holland, Belgium)in about 3 minutes. And Spa is about half an hour from here (formula 1).

I think I know Belgium, and I am still still still very much sure that my thesis: 'Belgium is rather a 'farmers-country' than a 'Queens-downtown-Getho' must be true!

Well thanks god! I only wonder why you defend the opposite. Just because you like R&B doesnt mean you have to live in a gang-neighbourhood!

I know my little Aachen and I know that in our area nothing realy differs, all the Benelux States are pretty much like my little Aachen

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (rpc007 @ April 03 2002,23:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i first shot an M60  when i was in fifth grade.....<span id='postcolor'>

Huh? M60 in fifth grade... M60 like this:

Forgive me if I have difficulties believing you. A full grown man has difficulty carrying and shooting the goddamned thing. The M60 weights almost 10 kg without the ammo. Are they even legal for civilian use?

[LordZach 0]

bipods are a beautiful thing aren't they

[rpc007 0]

dad was in the military, let me shoot the m60, i was prone at a shooting range so all i did was aim and pull no carrying

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ April 03 2002,00:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ April 02 2002,22:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thats cos in the uk getting a gun is very unlikley what with stringent laws and the fact that u cant legally have a pistol due to a nasty situation,media circus and a moronic general public<span id='postcolor'>

"Nasty situation"? I don't call a sick mother fucker walking into a school and murdering little children a "nasty situation", it's an horrific, vile, evil act that should never ever be allowed to happen again.

"moronic general public" By that do you perchance mean the general public who were right reviled and incensed by the events of Dunblaine?

Yes the situation now is basically that only criminals and police have guns, personally I'm fairly happy with that, the large majority of shootings in England are "gangster" v "gangster" if they want to go around killing each other let them.<span id='postcolor'>

still to read the rest of thread from above quote but in response to that.

said sick motherfucker would have probably done the same things with the way the law is now

moronic public = those idiots who bought into the "eeek eeek gun maniacs are alll over the country and are going to shoot us all" and all the stupid tabliods with their shit even resorting to trying to "campaign to get airguns banned" not that im exactly eager to run out to a shop to get a p226 or colt python or whatever but im not to happy that some moronic hillwalker might call out the armed cops just cos im out shooting with my pellet gun on some farmland.

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 03 2002,02:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the proble with "only criminals and cops will have guns"

is the fact that when the crime is commited.. who do you think is on the scene first??? of course the criminal.. the perpetrator.. to cop doesent come till later.. so there is a nice window of time where its just you and the criminal.. and if he has a gun and you dont then your future, yoour life or death, the life or death of your family.. etc etc.. is 100% his choice.. you have absolutley NO imfluence as to weather you will live or die, your wife get raped, your children taken.. etc etc..  the destiny of yourself and everything you love/own is 100% in than hands of someone who is obviousley NOT a good person..

sure cops have guns.. and they usually stay in their belt.. because by the time they get one the scene its either:

A: the criminal has left already.. done what he was there to do.. etc etc..

B: the smell of your dead body(S) has caught the attention of the enighbors becasue you never got to the phone.

the illusion that you can pick up the phone and have a cop at your house instantly is just that.. an illusion..  they generally take between 5 and 15 miniutes depending on too many variables to list..

and alot can happen in that time span.. assuming you even manage to call them in the first place..

so basically (averaging and assuming you actually get to call) there is a 10 minute time span between which the criminal makes his entry.. and the cops arrive..  thats a LONG time folks.. a criminal(s).. even a shitty one could get a good amout of shit out of your house in that amount of time.. have a good rape session.. kill you all.. etc etc.. whatever his whim..

in a sitiation where death can take mear seconds, the time it take the police to respond to a call is an enternity..

so the other option?  have a gun in the house.. at least then you have SOME say in the turn of events that happen.. insted of totally surrendering your fate to a thug.. who could be anyone from a serial killer to a crackhead, to a rapis.. etc etc.. all of the above..<span id='postcolor'>

Farmer guy in house in UK,hassled by dodgy types,said dodgy types break into his property and he blasts this guy with shotgun, farmer now serving prison sentence.

The though the situation was a bit blurry.Did he shoot in self defense or did he intentionally blow the guy away?

[Wobble 1]

I'm willing to bet most experienced cops are far better pistol marksmen than you Wobble

I dont knw.. whats the standard for you to be a cop.. how good ya have to shoot..

I know I do MORE shooing than most cops.. as I cut loose at least once a weekend

and to get my permit I had to pass a shooting test.. which about 60% of applicants fail on their first try..

its different in some states but here its

3 yards, 20 rounds

1 shot, 2 seconds, 5 times

2 shots, 3 seconds, 5 times

5 shots, 10 seconds, 1 time

7 yards, 20 rounds

5 shots, 10 seconds, 1 time

2 shots, 4 seconds, 1 time

3 shots, 6 seconds, 1 time

1 shot, 3 seconds, 5 times

5 shots, 15 seconds, 1 time

15 yards, 10 rounds

2 shots, 6 seconds, 1 time

3 shots, 9 seconds, 1 time

5 shots, 15 seconds, 1 time

the target is the tupical silouette with varying "score" levels for which you get points

you need a 175 to pass..

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ April 03 2002,08:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What would you guys btw do with a semi-automatic?

Hunt?

Someone told that he has taken a 12-gauge out of his friend's

mouth..

When I was a teenager, 17 or so, I was at a party, which took place at some half-strangers house.

So one of my "mates", who was pretty tired and drank too

much, decides that he doesn't want to live no more.

That is kind of usual, so no one paid attention.

Until..

He found some pistol from some locker I guess, and starts

pointing it at his head, looking not so stabile.

After painfully long 15 minutes, he made up his mind and

put the pistol back.

But I can't support hand guns at people's homes after that.<span id='postcolor'>

Why should ppl be denied the right of being able to defend themselves in a situation becuase of a suicidal person ?

The person could just have easily drawn out a straight razor or kitchen knife and started cutting themselves although it would be much easier to have an accident with a gun.

If u piss about with guns in such a manner than u really can`t be surprised if something or someone fucks up and dies becuase of it

[Renagade 0]

oh yeah i forgot to add that cops are gay and patronizing and shouldn`t really have gone into a job like that if they have families or intend to have them !duh!

Even though most of the time they do good wrok out of a tough job u really shouldn`t view them as the goody two shoes that the media likes to portray them as

[Wobble 1]

Farmer guy in house in UK,hassled by dodgy types,said dodgy types break into his property and he blasts this guy with shotgun, farmer now serving prison sentence.

The though the situation was a bit blurry.Did he shoot in self defense or did he intentionally blow the guy away

he intentionally blew the guy away in self defence...

BUT ONLY IF:

A: did they get in his house?

B: were they armed?

if they answer to both are YES than lethal force is justfied as he life (and that of kids or wif if any) was in mortal danger from a criminal element..

by make no mistake.. some drunk twit and taking a shit on yer lawn..

and

a burgler armed with a knife or a pistol are 2 VERY VERY different things..

if they break in and are not armed.. well dont shoot them.. unless they attack you... and someone braking in and intentionally attacking you.. with no weapon is rather dumb/rare.. if they are not armed then they are not wanting a confrontation.. just to steal or something..

so just hold them till the police get there.. if they try to run you DO NOT shoot them... as they are no threat to you...  if they try to attack you.. THEN you shoot them.. because they are attacking you.. and any attack.. armed or not can be lethal.. beating someone to death is not a hard thing to do..

pretty much as long as they attack you and are in your house (house does not = property) you can shoot them

im not talking about LAW here.. as in some countries the law is  "you defennd yourself in ANY way.. and your in trouble"

for example in Canada if some thug pulls a knife on you and attacks you.. and you beat them up.. YOU are the one who will get in trouble.. even if there are 400 peole and 10 video cameras who saw that the thug attacked you with a knife and was 110% the attacker.. you still broke the law..

your crime: self defence.

 does this make sense? shit no its retarded.. but its the Law..

personally.. if the risk is big enough.. I would rather break the law than be dead..  if those were the circumstances.

maby its just me.. but if a law makes is so that they only way to NOT break the law is to be a total victim.. and to place your destiny in the hands of a street thug.. well then that law needs to be looked at VERY hard.

[LordZach 0]

just shoot them in the leg with a 9mm or something

[Wobble 1]

here is a good example

In Colborne, Ontario recently, a pharmacist was charged with various firearms offences after he shot out the tires on the getaway car of two burglars who had broken into his store in the middle of the night. The average police response time in his small village is 30 minutes. The police say he should not be using a weapon to protect his property, even though he is an experienced marksman, has a handgun permit and has had eight break-ins in two years.

and a study:

University, there are 645,000 defensive uses of handguns per year in the U.S. Thirty-eight percent of convicted felons reported having been scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim. In robberies involving personal contact with the offender, 25 percent of victims who remained completely passive were injured anyway. Of those robbery victims wielding guns, only 17 percent were injured. Of those using weapons other than guns and knives, 22 percent were injured

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">for example in Canada if some thug pulls a knife on you and attacks you.. and you beat them up.. YOU are the one who will get in trouble.. even if there are 400 peole and 10 video cameras who saw that the thug attacked you with a knife and was 110% the attacker.. you still broke the law..<span id='postcolor'>

That is total B.S.

You obviously don't know the laws in Canada then. Let me refer you to Section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

'Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.'

It is legal to use self defence in Canada, providing:

1. You did not initiate the fight/struggle

2. You did not use excessive force

If you kill someone.

1. You beleived your life or someone elses was in danger

2. You tried everything within your power to stop the person before killing them.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In Colborne, Ontario recently, a pharmacist was charged with various firearms offences after he shot out the tires on the getaway car of two burglars who had broken into his store in the middle of the night. The average police response time in his small village is 30 minutes. The police say he should not be using a weapon to protect his property, even though he is an experienced marksman, has a handgun permit and has had eight break-ins in two years. <span id='postcolor'>

That was unecessary. He shot them as they were running away. That is not self defence (in legal terms). If they were armed and had he shot them while they were in the store, the pharmascist would not have been charged.

Tyler

[Major Fubar 0]

For the examples of kids getting access to guns in their parents or others houses, two words: gun safe.

It's no different than rat poison or medications, adults have a responsibility to store them where kids can't get at them.

Wobble, congratulations on your marksmanship. By shooting paper targets in a sealed environment under supervision you have proven your inalienable right to carry a gun on the street and use it at your own discression. Well done.  

[Placebo 29]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ April 04 2002,00:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">oh yeah i forgot to add that cops are gay and patronizing and shouldn`t really have gone into a job like that if they have families or intend to have them !duh!<span id='postcolor'>

The only experiences I've had with the English police force are positive ones, they've arrived when requested, performed their jobs with professionalism and genuine concern, perhaps the reason I've had good experiences with them is the fact that the times I've met them I've been the victim of crime not the perpetrator.........

I have no idea if any of the police I've met are homosexuals but personally as long as they do their job correctly I really don't care.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For the examples of kids getting access to guns in their parents or others houses, two words: gun safe.

It's no different than rat poison or medications, adults have a responsibility to store them where kids can't get at them.<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly. Well put.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Wobble, congratulations on your marksmanship. By shooting paper targets in a sealed environment under supervision you have proven your inalienable right to carry a gun on the street and use it at your own discression. Well done. <span id='postcolor'>

Sarcasm noted, but when criminals are armed, I would rather carry a gun. Your 'innocent bystander' example is a 1 in a million example and not a good, thourough reason to ban private gun ownership.

Tyler

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ April 04 2002,04:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ April 04 2002,00:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">oh yeah i forgot to add that cops are gay and patronizing and shouldn`t really have gone into a job like that if they have families or intend to have them !duh!<span id='postcolor'>

The only experiences I've had with the English police force are positive ones, they've arrived when requested, performed their jobs with professionalism and genuine concern, perhaps the reason I've had good experiences with them is the fact that the times I've met them I've been the victim of crime not the perpetrator.........

I have no idea if any of the police I've met are homosexuals but personally as long as they do their job correctly I really don't care.<span id='postcolor'>

Thats the kinda thing a cop would say :/

[Renagade 0]

The post someone was mentioning the laws in canada seem to be pretty close to UK laws as i recall also.

[Warin 0]

Canada isnt quite as bad as the UK.... yet.

We can still buy handguns and semi automatic rifles...with a great deal of restrictions.

We'll see what happens in the future, but I dont trust our government any farther than I can throw em.

[Wobble 1]

Wobble, congratulations on your marksmanship. By shooting paper targets in a sealed environment under supervision you have proven your inalienable right to carry a gun on the street and use it at your own discression. Well done.  

well ya have to shoot them fast and you get no time to aim the first shot.. just go! bang bang bang.. thats it..

thats where most people slip up.. they can hit the targets but not in the time giving..

like I said.. its not as easy as it sound 60% of people who try it fail the first try..

and generally the people who take these classes are by FAR no stranger to handguns and shooting.

besides.. givent eh example "guy with a knife" how far away do you have to be to threaten someone with a kinfe... less than 3 feet.. I belive I could hit a human sized target from 3 feet away regardless of the conditions.. as long as the pistol is in my hand its a done deal.. hell I could probably do it blindfolded.. anyone who can point a finger could.

[KingBeast 0]

In 1980 there were 11,522 deaths caused by firearms in the USA.

There were 8 in the UK.

I know americas population is 4 or 5 times that of the UK, but i guess its all summed up when you look at that.

11,522 compared to 8.

Makes ya wonder, though of course this was 1980, era of the high body count zero plot action films?

[Wobble 1]

In 1980 there were 11,522 deaths caused by firearms in the USA.

There were 8 in the UK.

wow in an entire year only 8 people in the entire united kingdom died from gunshot wounds?

LOL

lol, ive got a bridge id like to sell ya...

I would like to see where ya got that statistic BTW, I need a good laugh..

[Wobble 1]

here.. here are some stats since you like them so much,,,

UK

In 1974 in the United Kingdom 184 000 firearms were registered and 64 crimes involving firearms were committed, yet by 1994, when only 130 000 weapons were registered, there were almost 6000 crimes involving firearms

Britian

Findings of Chief Inspector Colin Greenwood of the West Yorkshire constabulary, England, who in his book "Firearms Control," revealed that as a consequence of harshly restrictive firearm laws affecting the British public, criminal violence had increased 196% from 1981 to 1992.

Britian

Since 1988 Great Britain has increased both the firearm control bureaucracy as well as the annual fees for possession of rifles, shotguns, and handguns to the point where the rate of legal gun ownership declined by 22% between 1988 and 1992 (Government Statistical Service, August 1993, p.3, p.5).

Ironically, the violent crime and firearm robbery rates in Great Britain increased by 29% and 109%, respectively, during the same period (Government Statistical Service, December 1992, p.35, p.65).

Canada

Canada has had registration of handguns since 1934. Legislation currently in Parliament would, reports the Fraser Institute of Vancouver, make registration of all firearms mandatory and lead to the confiscation of more than 50 percent of the handguns now held by Canadians. A Fraser study by Gary Mauser indicates that since more restrictive firearms laws took place in 1988, the number of those holding guns legally has dropped 19 percent. The robbery rate with a firearm during that period, however, has more than doubled. Also during the same period, the overall violent crime rate has increased 29 percent.

US

Crime and homicide rates are highest in jurisdictions, such as Washington, DC, New York City, Chicago, and California, where the most restrictive gun licensing, registration, and prohibition schemes exist

US

In the 20 year period of 1967 to 1986 the number of handguns increased 173% (27.8 million to 63.9 million) but the rate of fatal gun accidents decreased almost by two-thirds and has stayed at that low level in succeeding years despite a continued large increase in gun ownership. (Derived from FBI data.)

Mexaco

Mexico's borders the United States and it's gun laws are much stricter than those of the U.S.. Civilian ownership of any "military" calibre is forbidden, and there are various additional restriction on the remaining ones. Mexico's homicide rate is consistently double the U.S. rate

Jamaca

In 1973 (after an incident to which four businessmen were murdered by shooting) a total ban on the private ownership of all types of guns and ammunition was imposed. Police seized all legal firearms and were given the power to search any vehicle or house they believed to contain guns or ammunition, arresting without warrant any violators. These were taken to a "gun court", with no bail allowed, and, after a delay of perhaps weeks, arraigned in secret courts without representation, and those convicted were imprisoned in a "gun stockade" for an indeterminate period.  

Before 1973, Jamaica had a tolerable level of crime, and permitted private ownership of guns, subject to having a police permit. From 1974 to 1986 the homicide rate rose by 450%. Any political activity was accompanied by armed men roaming the streets, and armed troops had to preserve order during elections. Murders by shooting, armed robberies and other crimes set new world records

AUS

The Australian Bureau of Statistics shows us that, over the fifteen years between 1980 and 1995 gun deaths have dropped by 46% while, over the same period, gun ownership has soared. Source: The Australian 27/2/97 and SSAA ILA Report April 1997

Mexaco

Mexico has more restrictive gun control than the USA, and also a much higher murder and armed crime rate. In Taiwan, like Malaysia, the death penalty can be imposed for illegal ownership of guns, and gun control is stricter than Japan. Yet the murder rate in Taiwan is four times higher than that of Japan, and 30% higher than in the USA. South Africa has much stricter firearms control than the USA, yet has twice the murder rate.

As ive said.. Criminals LOVE guncontrol..

lets see.. what makes a criminal a criminal.. they dont follow the law.. what is banning guns.. a law.. so since criminals dont follow laws.. a gun law would do what??? disarm their law following victioms, making them even more helpless

[foxer 0]

If america can't stop drugs from coming in ,how can they stop guns ? Soo banning will never work.But who cares if we(americans) have guns ? Were only killing each other.

--edit

You don't see U.S. people with guns running over to canada/mexico shooting up bars,busy streets,other.But what about bombs ? If people don't have guns they will find another way to kill them,like bombs.Seeing how more americans have internet i bet you more people will make them if they didn't have guns.Suicide,if the guy going kill himself fine,I don't care.Why ? Because he's an whiner.You should tell him to do the world a favor and stop wasting our air.

[Wobble 1]

my favorite anti-gun "reason" (mindless excuse) is that 70% of suicides are carried out with a gun..

LOL.. you really think if somone REALLY wants to die.. that not having access to a gun will somehow majically save their life.. make them see a rainbow....

pills, knives, any height higher than 20 feet, cars, water,...etc

lets ban all of these too and live in a padded bubble..