metalcraze 290 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Is it really hard to run through a forest, while looking at your map, in RL, and not bump into a tree?:rolleyes: While firing a weapon you hold with both of your hands. The map probably will just magically float near you via psychokinesis or some shit. Basically, this is what i've gotten out of this thread:http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u146/Arsenic_Fox/untitled.jpg Wow dude you totally made your point with 2 people holding the map with 4 of their hands, while not holding anything else in them being exactly the same as fighting with a gun, while the map is magically in the air next to you which is totally more realistic than stopping and kneeling down to check the map. You are clearly an expert on realism, please teach me how to do that. Edited January 31, 2011 by metalcraze Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZeosPantera 0 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) stopping and kneeling down to check the map. F__k that. If there is a war going on and the only way to look at my map is to completely disconnect myself from reality and all outside visuals then I would not check my map until the war was over or I had 12 people watching my back.. (hopefully they haven't put on their maps helmets too!) Oh and BEST FIRST POST EVER Lithiumfox! Your mad MSpaint skills have humbled me. What you didn't show is how if I were kneeling down in field I would be doing... Map,, surroundings, map, surroundings, map, surroundings, map about 8 times as fast as my EYES could do it. Don't want to be caught off guard. Edited January 31, 2011 by ZeosPantera Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tankbuster 1733 Posted January 31, 2011 The map probably will just magically float near you via psychokinesis or some shit. Hmmm. I'm not sure holding the map in some shit would work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalcraze 290 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) F__k that. If there is a war going on and the only way to look at my map is to completely disconnect myself from reality and all outside visuals then I would not check my map until the war was over or I had 12 people watching my back.. Yes. Why would you check your map during the gun fight? And where will your soldier get additional eyes to look at the battlefield and a map at the same time like in the suggestion? And where will he get additional hands? Edited January 31, 2011 by metalcraze Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pulverizer 1 Posted January 31, 2011 The weapon would obviously get lowered or holstered when you press M for map regardless of you having a second monitor to view it. Try to think how the shit work in real life for one minute. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalcraze 290 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) In real life I have to look on the map. Not at both at the same time. It doesn't magically appear floating to the side of where I'm looking. And what's the point in the change anyway if it will only appear when you are sitting down, lowering your weapon? Isn't it the same except more cheat-ish? I don't understand how pressing M to look at the map and then pressing M to not look at it is different from looking at it in real life and moving your eyes away from it. Look at his suggestion in the original post then come back. He wants it to be implemented as a full-time cheat so he could see all friendlies and enemies on his casual difficulty at all times - even when engaging in combat - not for the sake of "realism". So he could have a clear advantage over people who don't have 2+ monitors set up (aka the majority) Edited January 31, 2011 by metalcraze Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andersson 285 Posted January 31, 2011 Some people have obviously never spent much time in nature navigating by map. In RL you loose atleast one hand if you need your map ready in an instant. Look at orienteering, they run with the map in a plastic pocket and they still need to slow down or even stop when they take a new course. Imagine being able to run and shoot in rough terrain, reading the map, at the same time you use a weapon that needs two hands. The only way of getting the map more realistic is to have an animation that makes the hands let go of the gun and then hold up a map. Then you could use trackIr or alt to look around at the same time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalcraze 290 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Except you wouldn't be able to hold a map that big in one hand and use it. We are talking about holding a detailed map (that shows every single bush) of the whole region here, not a single village. It's huge and will definitely occupy both of your eyes as well. It's enough that GPS device is a cheat enough already that magically floats in the air while you run and gun. Edited January 31, 2011 by metalcraze Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pulverizer 1 Posted January 31, 2011 I don't understand how pressing M to look at the map and then pressing M to not look at it is different from looking at it in real life and moving your eyes away from it. For two, complete lack of peripheral vision and the speed at which you can alternate between viewing the map and your surroundings. You don't view a map by holding it against your face, even if it was a really big map (it would probably be foldable, or comprise of several sheets). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalcraze 290 Posted January 31, 2011 Going by that logic pressing M and waiting 1 second before map will appear isn't any good either because you would've needed the time to get it out and unfold it. Seriously though the only way it will become realistic is when BIS will render the map in 3D world in your hands with you pressing ALT to rotate your head, which considering its size and the need to "scroll" through it will be very hard, if not resource heavy. What we have now is considerably more realistic than having a 20" GPS floating to your side with map centered around your position as OP wants. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-=seany=- 5 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) How about you stop trying to make it realistic and first consider playability? Some of you people are unbelievable when it comes to your realism fetish. Don't get me wrong, I love sims and simulation (DCS A10 pilot here) but some of you people are all too willing to cut off your nose to spite your face and forgo the possibility of adding neat features like this or putting up with some annoying animation in game (http://dev-heaven.net/issues/16782) just because "it's more realistic"...do me a favour... I don't see what the big deal is. Being able to display additional game content on a second screen is a great advancement we can take advantage of with today's hardware. Why not just include it as an option ffs? We could also use it for things like showing us the gunners optics view while we pilot the AH64 etc. Or have the map open on it while flying any air vehicle or a tank (which have MFD's showing moving maps available all the time). And if some one wants to setup a sever where you can use a 2nd display for a map, or play some single player missions the same way will it really cause you to loose sleep? Yes this is a sim....but it is very different from a normal sim. It is much easier to simulate a machine like a plane or train or car...what are we trying to simulate here? A soldier...which is a human...which is impossible to simulate like a machine without ruining the game play. Remember this. Edited January 31, 2011 by -=seany=- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pulverizer 1 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Going by that logic pressing M and waiting 1 second before map will appear isn't any good either because you would've needed the time to get it out and unfold it. Well, that has fuck all to do with the second monitor as a map argument so I don't know what you're trying to say. That the Arma2 map is unrealistic? Sure is. I agree. Retaining peripheral vision and being able to quickly glance the map when you have it whipped out would still have meaningful gameplay effects and they would make the map usage more realistic. Edited January 31, 2011 by Pulverizer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Defunkt 431 Posted January 31, 2011 For two, complete lack of peripheral vision and the speed at which you can alternate between viewing the map and your surroundings. You don't view a map by holding it against your face, even if it was a really big map (it would probably be foldable, or comprise of several sheets). And your solution to this rather small concession is to have the map always unfolded, deployed and entirely visible even while you're sprinting, shooting and throwing grenades? Excuse my snorts of derision. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZeosPantera 0 Posted January 31, 2011 you know nothing is more realistic then having to stop my 20 million dollar state of the art tank on the side of the road to check my map.;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalcraze 290 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Well, that has fuck all to do with the second monitor as a map argument so I don't know what you're trying to say. That the Arma2 map is unrealistic? Sure is. I agree.Retaining peripheral vision and being able to quickly glance the map when you have it whipped out would still have meaningful gameplay effects and they would make the map usage more realistic. The point was that it won't be achieved in a better way with a secondary monitor GPS cheat suggested which is even more unrealistic than map appearing before your eyes 1 second later. you know nothing is more realistic then having to stop my 20 million dollar state of the art tank on the side of the road to check my map.;) Why would you stop it? You have your commander to keep eyes on the map if you are a driver and vise versa. The only thing you could bash BIS for here is that they removed tank cockpits after OFP instead of improving them - but nice try weaseling out here as we (incl. you) were talking about infantry and you go on about tanks now. Edited January 31, 2011 by metalcraze Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Defunkt 431 Posted January 31, 2011 you know nothing is more realistic then having to stop my 20 million dollar state of the art tank on the side of the road to check my map.;) I've got no problem with it being used for secondary displays in a vehicle (other than the fact I don't see it as a high priority) but you lot seem mostly set on justifying it being available on foot which it obviously (d'uh) shouldn't be . You should clarify exactly what you do want lest the baby get thrown with the bath water. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZeosPantera 0 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Why would you stop it? You have your commander to keep eyes on the map if you are a driver and vise versa.The only thing you could bash BIS for here is that they removed tank cockpits after OFP instead of improving them - but nice try weaseling out here as we (incl. you) were talking about infantry and you go on about tanks now. Yeah, My AI commander is going to do a GREAT JOB reading me out the path I should take to avoid encroaching on enemy territories on my 4 mile trip through the backwood areas because the AI in arma is top fucking notch which is why I am usually driving because I do want to get to my destination eventually. And as I wrote perviously I would like the secondary monitor map to be assignable on a per server basis or to be available in vehicles only or vehicles and to foot soldiers with many levels of detail and interactivity changeable per server from static map with NO PLAYER INFORMATION so the user would be responsible for knowing where they are via map cords, compass and landmark recognition to the other end of the scale where it would be the fully dynamic map with AI placement and live updates etc. Which reminds me that even if your had to press map and wait like we currently do for your "paper" unfold-able map you somehow can track ai movements and zoom in and apply Magical waypoints to your eyes with it. Plus in total darkness I can see it just fine without my NV googles or the any light whatsoever. I fear this game may not be half the "simulator" you guys are looking for. Pehaps its time for you to find another game. Edited January 31, 2011 by ZeosPantera Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Defunkt 431 Posted January 31, 2011 Pehaps its time for you to find another game. Hah, you're the one who can't seem to get what he needs, we're all fine with the status quo. As I've posted previously, if it's all optional and controlled server side then fine but I don't think that'd be a good use of BI's time and clearly neither do they, I guess you'll just need to mod it yourself. /thread Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalcraze 290 Posted January 31, 2011 Yeah, My AI commander is going to do a GREAT JOB reading me out the path I should take to avoid encroaching on enemy territories on my 4 mile trip through the backwood areas because the AI in arma is top fucking notch which is why I am usually driving because I do want to get to my destination eventually. So what implementing a map cheat, that will be used in multiplayer as well, has to do with AI not being perfect? I think you have your priorities wrong here. And as I wrote perviously I would like the secondary monitor map to be assignable on a per server basis or to be available in vehicles only or vehicles and to foot soldiers with many levels of detail and interactivity changeable per server from static map with NO PLAYER INFORMATION so the user would be responsible for knowing where they are via map cords, compass and landmark recognition to the other end of the scale where it would be the fully dynamic map with AI placement and live updates etc. Why not just press M and open the map instead of messing with tons of settings? As having such map for foot soldiers will definitely be a cheat. Which reminds me that even if your had to press map and wait like we currently do for your "paper" unfold-able map you somehow can track ai movements and zoom in and apply Magical waypoints to your eyes with it. Play on normal difficulty (veteran) not a casual one? Plus in total darkness I can see it just fine without my NV googles or the any light whatsoever. That means it isn't total darkness. There is no such thing as total darkness either, however there is darkness (i.e. with heavy cloud cover and no moon it's as dark as it gets unless you specifically put your gamma to the highest setting possible) I fear this game may not be half the "simulator" you guys are looking for. Pehaps its time for you to find another game. No sorry man. What you want here is to run around with your weapon, shooting other people, while having a map always open next to you - even though there is a cheater-ish GPS device already in game. We need less of this stuff. Adding floating GPS device was already a huge mistake. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wilf55 10 Posted February 1, 2011 Why not have the secondary monitor blacked out by default, then when the map key is pressed the map is brought up/unfolded/whatever you want, and the primary screen is blurred slightly - simulating peripheral vision. It may also be worthwhile limiting soliders on foot to walking pace while the map is out to simulate the need to concentrate on the map to view it clearly. This seems like it meets most of the requirements of the "OMG, totally not real" camp. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZeosPantera 0 Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) the primary screen is blurred slightly - simulating peripheral vision. Well, I believe looking physically at another secondary monitor automatically puts your primary monitor in your real peripheral vision. That's part of the point nobody gets. Edited February 1, 2011 by ZeosPantera Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
metalcraze 290 Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) Well, I believe looking physically at another secondary monitor automatically puts your primary monitor in your real peripheral vision. That's part of the point nobody gets. No we do get it. You can easily see what's going on on both. Why not have the secondary monitor blacked out by default, then when the map key is pressed the map is brought up/unfolded/whatever you want, and the primary screen is blurred slightly - simulating peripheral vision. What's the point in this change then? Having everything blurred where you can barely tell the difference between objects further than 50m is even more uncomfortable and heavy on eyes than just pressing M and waiting for as little as 1 damn second before map folds/unfolds. It may also be worthwhile limiting soliders on foot to walking pace while the map is out to simulate the need to concentrate on the map to view it clearly. So basically dudes with secondary monitor will be able to walk with 2m x 2m map and view something around them, while single monitor plebs will have to stay in a single place? This seems like it meets most of the requirements of the "OMG, totally not real" camp. It isn't real either. The main problem here is not only no connection to reality but that 2 monitor setup will have a clear gameplay advantage over the majority of people, which is exactly what your camp wants. There is GPS device that shows perfectly where you are. It can float in the air near your hands even when you are moving. And it will even be on the same monitor at the same time! Splendid! Use it. Anything more than that is just "I want to cheat" Edited February 1, 2011 by metalcraze Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pulverizer 1 Posted February 1, 2011 No we do get it. You can easily see what's going on on both. What, you mean exactly like reading a map in real life? Indeed! Now you're getting it! :D Since you're so pro-realism, you should see how this can be a good thing, and not a "cheat" if done proper and not like the straw man arguments suggest. Making the map visible all the time with unit info and the other stuff would be stupid, except maybe for some game modes like berzerk and what have you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZeosPantera 0 Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) The main problem here is not only no connection to reality but that 2 monitor setup will have a clear gameplay advantage over the majority of people, which is exactly what your camp wants. my camp? Are we going to actually form camps now? Because I am pretty sure the rest of your argument concerning ... a clear gameplay advantage has already been discussed and concluded that in this NON CONSOLE game, clear, undeniable and tangible hardware advantages over the "other guy" can be accomplished by ... Having a superior Video card Having a faster Processor Using Triplehead Using surround sound Having a lower response time monitor Using a higher DPI mouse Using analog controls for vehicles Having a faster internet connection Using a voice program to speak to teammates Life isn't fair and neither is gaming on PC. If you cant afford a second monitor then your the same as someone who cant afford three of them or a 6990 or a $200 gaming mouse. Edited February 1, 2011 by ZeosPantera Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoRailgunner 0 Posted February 1, 2011 What about suggesting some more authentic map+soldier animations and proper working displays in vehicles? Imho its much better to raise the level of immersion and atmosphere ingame instead of using (external) workarounds/"cheats". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
