Operation Arrowhead and DirectX 10/11 Support

[Preacher1974 0]

Is there any word on whether Operation Arrowhead will use DirectX 10 or 11. It's such a shame that the game currently isn't using the capabilities of most graphics hardware out there by being restricted to DirectX 9.

[manberries 0]

Not that Directx 10 actually has much to it, but Directx 11 is a no chance. The 3 series cards aren't even out yet so I highly doubt any game is working on Directx 11 as of yet. Hopefully Directx 11 will be a significant change from Directx 9.

[Dwarden 1125]

new stalker is DX11, Dirt is DX11, Blizzard signed for DX11, CryEngine v3 is DX11 , Epic soon to announce something 'very unreal' which i assume is DX11 engine ...

W7 is out, DX11 SDK is out for quite some time and transit from DX10/10/1 to DX11 is not that hard if you have enough manpower ...

[manberries 0]

I was not aware Dx11 was that far along! Great news! Too bad only ATI has an 11 capable card out so far, but Nvidia should have one soon. However, I still don't see Arma 2 going any more detailed with its models than it already is, which is what Dx11 is all about.

[Zeron 10]

DX11 will spread faster then DX10 did, so be prepared ;).

Actually its not just quality, but performance. You may reproduce the same quality in DX9 but will be alot slower.

[Steakslim 1]

DX11 will spread faster then DX10 did, so be prepared ;).

Actually its not just quality, but performance. You may reproduce the same quality in DX9 but will be alot slower.

I hope so. DX10 didn't seem to gain much popularity, but I think it's time for devs to move on from DX9 to something else.

I doubt however that Arrowhead will be DX11. It is more or less ArmA2 with several new features, so nothing drastic to the engine will be changed.

[Flash Thunder 10]

Heres a video I found, showing the differences from DX10 and DX11

Enjoy. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR40GwRtFyw

Totally unreal. O_o

Please add support for DX10 at least BIS!! :dancehead:

[4 IN 1 0]

The simple fact is, since A2 engine is DX9, given the fact that there wont be too much chamge gfx wise on the engine, BI simply wont switch to DX11/10

[MehMan 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR40GwRtFyw

Oh god, the intro was a bunch of crap. You will NOT get those features in all games just by buying a DX11 card. Uh, there aren't even games released that support DX11.

And there was a debate around DX10 support and it just doesn't bring anything to the table to make it worth implementing.

In that very vid I don't see any use of paralax mapping which would produce the required visual effect of faked geometry in ways that normal mapping alone cannot. What does it tesselate it off? Does it use a normal map to tesselate? And it seems to work on the DX11 test island flawlessy, great, lets see this in an ArmA2 world where there's more than just graphics to worry about.

This just looks like a LOD system or a paralax replacement which isn't all that exciting.

Here's paralax:

Woo, and that's not even geometry.

Edited October 24, 2009 by MehMan

[randir14 10]

True...look at the Stalker: Call of Pripyat DX11-DX10 comparison pics, there's barely any difference.

[Chunk3ym4n 10]

Oh god, the intro was a bunch of crap. You will NOT get those features in all games just by buying a DX11 card. Uh, there aren't even games released that support DX11.

And there was a debate around DX10 support and it just doesn't bring anything to the table to make it worth implementing.

In that very vid I don't see any use of paralax mapping which would produce the required visual effect of faked geometry in ways that normal mapping alone cannot. What does it tesselate it off? Does it use a normal map to tesselate? And it seems to work on the DX11 test island flawlessy, great, lets see this in an ArmA2 world where there's more than just graphics to worry about.

This just looks like a LOD system or a paralax replacement which isn't all that exciting.

Here's paralax:

Woo, and that's not even geometry.

Yeah but Parallax mapping isn't perfect. It's terrible for highly sloped cliffs because it isn't actually 3D but 2D. This would explain why going up high cliffs in ArmA II you can see the stones popping out of a 2d space which is very annoying. This here is way cooler then Parallax mapping since you have that problem since these are actual 3d objects. Tesslating is like a completly dynamic way of doing LOD and I would imagine having this would greatly reduce video game sizes since they don't need all those LODs in there.

[Uly 10]

@MehMan: there's a very strong difference between parallax mapping and normal mapping. (it's a lot more complex than this, i'm just explaining what you and I see.) The most noteable difference is that a parallax map can occlude parts of itself, whereas a normal map can only affect how something is lit. That's how you get those cool bullet decals in FEAR. : )

I'm not sure what you're stating exactly, but what is shown in the video is not parallax mapping in the traditional sense. Parallax mapping, like normal mapping, will only affect the surfacing of a shader, the silhouette for an object using Normal Mapping or Parallax Mapping will remain the same. (i didn't listen to the vid with audio and skipped around, so please forgive if i'm repeating information.) the shader that they were primarily showing off seems to be some really neat realtime displacement. Visually, it's very similar to what you'd see in Maya if you were using the effect. (Although it's jacked up so high in the vid it has a really bad look in places. Like most tech videos, it's over the top.) The mesh is subdivided (i donno what algorythm can reproduce it in realtime, but it seems to do a pretty neat job.) and then whatever provides the displacement data (likely a B&W image stored in the alpha channel of the normal map) in order to push the verts around on your newly subdivided mesh. You probably won't see this tech being used outside of a few super hardcore PC games (more or less how Crysis was billed) until the next generation of consoles comes around and developers can get a return on their investment for developing their engines with the technology in mind.

Like any new graphical effect, it wouldn't exactly play too friendly on a game that wasn't built for it from the ground up. : ) But don't worry, just like with normal maps, in a good few years you'll see this stuff everywhere, including Bohemia's follow ups in the same timeframe.

As for what it "tesselates" off, I'm not sure if I can make the leap in knowledge in stating what the proper term is, but in order to achieve the displacement effect they have, it's usually a black and white image with very soft details in order to avoid a noisy mess. This B&W image is probably stored in the alpha channel of a normal map, which will continue to provide the higher frequency, smaller details.

You can probably find very similar assets if you dig around in ARMA2's art and look at what textures are being used for the concrete tiles used in some areas, if you wanted to check it out yourself.

Exciting stuff! : ) hope to see it within 4 or 5 years.

edit: (displacement maps look like this, you can see it doesn't contain a ridiculous level of detail. It's best at providing medium to large scale details at limited texture resolutions) http://www.zarria.net/nrmphoto/cross_DISPLACEMENT.jpg

Edited October 25, 2009 by Uly
additional stuff

[7 0]

*praying for a native 64-bit client & server .exe*

[Bulldogs 10]

I think the key point with Direct x 11 is performance. From what I can tell of it, if you were getting 30 fps for something then the same image quality under Dx11 should be around 40-50 fps.

[EricM 0]

BIS said they tried DX10 but it wasn't worth it : too little new features and Vista exclusive... Given the number of gamers still on XP, it would have been quite detrimental to the sales...

DX11 will add substantially more things, improve on DX10 features and work for Vista and Windows 7.

Thanks to tesselation, maybe we'll see micro-bumps again in the terrain (like OFP "very high" terrain) in Arma 3... But I wouldn't expect anything drastic in AO, unless it is delayed substantially.

[neokika 62]

In Arma 2 Operation Arrowhead they will only change the "DataDisk", so of course no DX10/DX11 support.

I would really be happy if they someday get the engine to support both, and maybe the tesselation could help alot with the Grass distance...

[Murklor 10]

Tesslating is like a completly dynamic way of doing LOD and I would imagine having this would greatly reduce video game sizes since they don't need all those LODs in there.

True. That's what ATI said when introducing hardware tesselation with the Radeon R200 series. I believe they showcased it with Counter-Strike.

When the OMGWTFDX9OWNAGE R300 came out the implementation turned software and performance went way down.

Its amazing that its taken 5 generations of video cards and 3 generations of DirectX to begin praising this feature to high heavens again.

[Pyronick 21]

Its amazing that its taken 5 generations of video cards and 3 generations of DirectX to begin praising this feature to high heavens again.

Thank the dynamic duo Microsoft-nVidia for that.

Tesselation is a very old technique from the n-patches/TruForm era in the early 2000's.

It has been postponed by Microsoft (excluding the Xbox360) for years, it would finally get out of draft and in the DirectX 10 specifications but due to nVidia it has been postponed because they didn't have a hardware tesselator and the dual precision FPU was too weak.

Woo, and that's not even geometry.

That's the problem other than being a memory hog. It's not geometry it's just a texture. As soon as the disc is going past 45 degrees it looks like crap.

Also the borders of the textured plain looks like crap.

[Preacher1974 0]

I think the key point with Direct x 11 is performance. From what I can tell of it, if you were getting 30 fps for something then the same image quality under Dx11 should be around 40-50 fps.

That's where I'm coming from. For a given unit of quality DirectX10 or 11 should be more efficient.

---------- Post added at 08:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 AM ----------

In Arma 2 Operation Arrowhead they will only change the "DataDisk", so of course no DX10/DX11 support.

I would really be happy if they someday get the engine to support both, and maybe the tesselation could help alot with the Grass distance...

They are changing the engine this time (as well as the data) so they COULD introduce it if possible.

[Defunkt 431]

Seems like every time I see a post about Arrowhead more and more new features are attributed to it with little or none of it more than wishful thinking AFAIK. I predict there will be tears when these expectations (which somehow seem to grow in the telling) are not met. It has been explained ad-museum that the 'engine team' is still patching ArmA 2 and that Arrowhead is an opportunity to gainfully employ the content developers.

[dm 9]

Preacher;1472692']They are changing the engine this time (as well as the data) so they COULD introduce it if possible.

Addin a new shader here and there (like FLIR) is farily "trivial". Completely re-writing the rendering system to suit a new direct x is NOT a trival, easy or quick task.

People getting their hopes up over directx 11 are going to be SORELY dissapointed...

[Preacher1974 0]

Seems like every time I see a post about Arrowhead more and more new features are attributed to it with little or none of it more than wishful thinking AFAIK. I predict there will be tears when these expectations (which somehow seem to grow in the telling) are not met. It has been explained ad-museum that the 'engine team' is still patching ArmA 2 and that Arrowhead is an opportunity to gainfully employ the content developers.

So you're saying they are not modifying the engine... Why did BIS then state in http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=84463 that they would be modifying the engine?

Will they somehow automate the inclusion of ArmA II content for those that have it to encourage people who own it that Arrowhead will be just a huge expansion pack for them?

BIS: This is difficult to say now, as Arrowhead will feature a newer and enhanced version of ArmA II engine.

And

What are the reasons to release it as a standalone game instead of an ArmA II addon?

BIS: At least two reasons there are, which one of these is our wish to make it easier to get the game for players who didn't buy ArmA II previously and that some of the new features require to change both exe and data in order to work properly (e.g. thermal imaging).

[dm 9]

There is a huge difference between minor modifications like adding FLIR and a full on re-write of the rendering system...

[Defunkt 431]

It will benefit from the same improvements that are made to ArmA 2's executable and, as has been officially announced, will incorporate specific features brought across from VBS2. To suggest that these enhancements might signal a simultaneous jump by two DirectX versions is naive. I guess time will tell.

[neokika 62]

Preacher;1472692']That's where I'm coming from. For a given unit of quality DirectX10 or 11 should be more efficient.

---------- Post added at 08:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:00 AM ----------

They are changing the engine this time (as well as the data) so they COULD introduce it if possible.

Im not saying they wont, It has been a Developer who said that, No major changes in the Engine, but the DataDisk is a new one.

I would really be happy if someday the engine supports it!