RL > VR -Simunition

[HardBoot 10]

Video games and paintball have been a staple of my life. War is my friend, I love the mental and physical aspects. I always look for more ways to get into combat without having to actually kill someone or die. For a few years now I have been trying to find others with the drive and courage to take it a step farther. We have the technology already... Simunition (Simulated Ammunition). With a little bit of body armor, reduced charges, lipstick rounds, beanbags... you have real war without the death. Win-win!!

What I'm wondering is, would any of you play a game? Even better, do any of you play(outside of military/police training)? While the insurance would be tough to work out and the price to get started quite large, I think it would be worth it. If you add in hardcore software for tracing bullets, you would have the largest spectator sport in the world.. and of course we would all get rich off it. Woohoo. Well, maybe just wealthy as the 5x5mile playing fields with 200'+ walls all the way around would cost a mint.

I've been trying to get this going for a few years now, but no one is ever interested. Meanwhile, the industry is growing. Just type Simunition into Google and you'll see what I mean. This should be done, if someone out there has already stolen this great idea from me, at least get in touch with me and offer me a spot on a team (I'll pass whatever tests). Or better yet, cut me in.

[Maddmatt 1]

Sure would be more exciting to watch than a bunch of idiots kicking/throwing/hitting/bouncing/batting a ball.

It would make a good terrorist training tool though, but it works both ways.

[randir14 10]

That would be fun to play if it was in an unregulated environment, paintball is cool except for the high school nerd referees on a power trip.

[Pribovich 10]

Well if you got tired of paintball you can always try AirSoft! At least guns look real and hits actually DO hurt! ;)

[Second 0]

Laser simulators are available for commercial uses. I know couple small businesses which do offer them (one customer for at least other is military), nice change from paintball and airsoft. Haven't tried it as they are physically far away but shouldn't be much different from MILES-kits from 90s, which i have used. Most problematic/different is weapon itself as they can be something like OICW etc, unlike military MILES which is put into personal firearm. Nowdays MILES with GPS and maybe even camera would make good "contact"-sports.

Ofcourse lasers are lasers with inability to penetrate anything, but in range, easiness to use (if i hate something in paintball and airsoft it's the goggles and their "ability" to get hazy when they shouldn't) they clear the table. Then again sometimes use of paintball markers or airsoft-guns over laser-simulators is desirable if terrain is very-low-visibility. I've been in exercises where markers are used as usually visibility ceases to 10-20 meters, laser signal might not get farther than 5 meters away before hitting something like branch and due to terrain most engagements are just blind firing thru bushes and young trees.

Am i interested? Well it's fun that people can have (more) fun. I personally am satisfied with current options (and i'm not too much into it right now) and don't see reason why i would need more.

[trickster1982 10]

Im a regular paintballer & the site I use does run lasertag as well although I havent tried it. Im a walk-on paintball player so I have all my own playing kit & do it as a hobby rather than stag do's/birthdays :) My marker is a Tippmann A5 with a fold out stock & flatline barrel!

I think I'd prefer to stick to paintball as there is a variety of games under its umbrella to cater for all types of player, some prefer speedball with compact flashy buck rogers style markers & inflatable obstacles on a neatly cut playing field, while others (myself included) prefer woodland paintball or going as far as tactical milsim paintball!

I wouldnt go as far as these guys go with it, but im not knocking them & they seem to have fun http://shop.specialopspaintball.com/

They use anti-personnel paintball mines, markers modified to look like real life weapons, telescopic sights & all sorts!some of their games last for days as they set up camps & hike to objectives etc

[ballistic09 241]

Paintball =/= Realism.

Sure, it's a fun sport and in recent years they have done a whole lot in trying to make the guns more realistic, but it just doesn't work out... Most people aren't willing to get oily paint all over their $500 plate carrier, $100 uniform, $60 gloves, $80 boots, blah blah blah... Not to mention that paintball is very expensive.:( There are players out there that love to play woodsball and like things realistic, but overall the sport is dominated by people wearing jerseys who play speedball...

Airsoft on the other hand is perfect for realism. No oily paint to ruin your gear, the guns are pretty much identical to their real counterparts, and the players are generally in the sport because of the realism... unlike paintball.:rolleyes: The only downside is that the bb's don't leave a big splatter of paint so people might not call their hits, but it rarely happens and it's usually not on purpose... literally, I can only think of one instance when this has happened, and it was resolved by a ref. I attend games held by my local airsoft association at an old Nike missile base called MS-40. (Aerial view of the complex) It's very cool, and soon there will be a "village" made out of Conex boxes for Military/Law enforcement training, and of course Airsoft.:D

As for simunition uses, aren't you required to own some type of law enforcement permit to buy any type of simunition? I know it seems silly to be able to buy real ammunition but not being able to buy nonleathal training ammo, but I remember hearing about this somewhere... There's also the safety issue of using real firearms for a game, it would only take one mistake and somebody could be in some serious trouble... You're best bet for legal realism would be airsoft... believe me, I've tried them all... well, not simunitions but you get the idea.;)

[Second 0]

Airsoft on the other hand is perfect for realism.

Airsoftgun LOOKS real and that is about it. That sadly is pretty much whole idea of airsoft-genre, you get realistic looking gun and outfit and then you go to spray-and-pray BBs to 20-30 meters. :D (and some still argue that it's more real than paintball, while it basically is just as arcade as paintball is)

Paintballers usually atleast do understand that there's realism and "realism" and don't boast with it like some airsofters do. Both are toys and used as toys, once that lack has been acknowledged they can offer some value in some scenarios.

and the players are generally in the sport because of the realism... unlike paintball

Team Deathmatch in both camps i'm afraid. Sure airsofters tries to be mil-sim blokes, but usually that leads only to wearing some realistic gear (as you say they hate to get their expensive gear dirty with paint).

Edited October 25, 2009 by Second

[ballistic09 241]

then you go to spray-and-pray BBs to 20-30 meters. :D

Indeed, range is quite limiting in both airsoft and paintball... In my experiences though, airsoft guns have quite the range advantage. It still doesn't even come close to real steel firearms though...

Airsoftgun LOOKS real and that is about it.

For the most part, that is true. Most people use automatic electric guns, which in no way function like their real counterparts in terms of operation and recoil. However, recently there have been a number of gas powered blowback rifles that have entered the market. They function almost identically to the real deal.

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

Video games and paintball have been a staple of my life. War is my friend, I love the mental and physical aspects. I always look for more ways to get into combat without having to actually kill someone or die. For a few years now I have been trying to find others with the drive and courage to take it a step farther. We have the technology already... Simunition (Simulated Ammunition). With a little bit of body armor, reduced charges, lipstick rounds, beanbags... you have real war without the death. Win-win!!

What I'm wondering is, would any of you play a game? Even better, do any of you play(outside of military/police training)? While the insurance would be tough to work out and the price to get started quite large, I think it would be worth it. If you add in hardcore software for tracing bullets, you would have the largest spectator sport in the world.. and of course we would all get rich off it. Woohoo. Well, maybe just wealthy as the 5x5mile playing fields with 200'+ walls all the way around would cost a mint.

I've been trying to get this going for a few years now, but no one is ever interested. Meanwhile, the industry is growing. Just type Simunition into Google and you'll see what I mean. This should be done, if someone out there has already stolen this great idea from me, at least get in touch with me and offer me a spot on a team (I'll pass whatever tests). Or better yet, cut me in.

www.goarmy.com is hiring.

[Second 0]

Indeed, range is quite limiting in both airsoft and paintball... In my experiences though, airsoft guns have quite the range advantage. It still doesn't even come close to real steel firearms though...

For the most part, that is true. Most people use automatic electric guns, which in no way function like their real counterparts in terms of operation and recoil. However, recently there have been a number of gas powered blowback rifles that have entered the market. They function almost identically to the real deal.

You have good points i admit.

I don't agree with range advantage, but that is mostly because we use 0.2g pellets and sites where i've been playing almost always have some degree of wind. So pellets usually will spread all around the countryside. Already 0.25g pellets seems to be much better, but nowdays almost everywhere around here one faces the fact that only 0.2g pellet can be used because maximum joule cap. Which sucks.

[trickster1982 10]

I use a flatline barrel on my tippy & it has double the range & accuracy of standard paintball markers so its pretty good! It sounds like a cannon going off as well so its quite intimidating on the field seen as you can barely hear electro markers :D (some may say it gives my position away but I dont really care on a relatively small playing area) Only disadvantage is I have to buy good paint as the flatline doesnt like cheap stuff & I spend all day squeegying by barrel out if the paints not right.

[HardBoot 10]

I've never gotten into airsoft because of the cheaters, they don't even have to wipe! But that really comes down to the players. I also would feel awful about leaving a bunch of plastic BBs around the woods for birds to eat.

I've been following the SpecOpsPaintball guys for a while, they have some sweet marker mods. They also play my style, woodsball/mil-sim. I have a couple markers, one is an A5 with a flatline. I have to say, it is a great standard and the noise is good too ;)

I'm not too worried about the legal side of it. I know it would be a lot of work, but with a few policemen or soldiers on board, things should go smoothly. Also, there would be very strict security measures in place with a 1 mistake and you're gone policy. If anyone ever thought it was funny to bring live ammo I wouldn't want to play with them. As for terrorist training, I think it comes down to the same argument as firearms- Criminals don't follow the law. Also, any firearms used, and their owners, would need to be registered with the gov(just a guess) and the insurance company.

To be clear I don't think this can or should be done backyard style. This would be the full shabang- paperwork, legals, security, EMT, everything primed for the worst just in case.

As for GoArmy.com, I'm past the age that bootcamp is tolerable, have issues with authority and do not like our(USA) current situation. But it sure would be fun, without the killing or dieing part... the threat of death would be nice, once in a while.

[Whiskey_Tango 10]

im not sure about the legalities involved with simunition, airsoft can be fun though....

made a ghillie suit and hid it in the woods before playing, i went off to my area and suited up and laid in wait for the better part of 15 minutes when i caught three walking by within about 10' of me all to be shot in the back...i was hollering dont you cheat and put those guns down because they had the habit of shooting you to get even but a few (around 30) shots to their inner thigh and they surrendered...was fun

would be more fun with simunition though, i can see someone getting seriously screwed up by it though, on the news, lawsuits, jailtime , felonies so all my guns would be taken

if it was perfectly legal i would be all for it though

[sparks50 0]

HardBoot: Bio-degradeable BBs are widely available, and they aren't that expensive either. Some groups play with Bio-BBs exclusively, to comply with land-owners demands.

As for cheaters, its all about the players as you say. Its not hard to find out who the bad players are and kick them out for life either, when playing long term.

You can also get good quality BBs that leave paint markers when hit, just like in paintball.

Why anyone would use them is beyond me though, you would be better off with paintball if you want to play competitively.

Airsoftgun LOOKS real and that is about it. That sadly is pretty much whole idea of airsoft-genre, you get realistic looking gun and outfit and then you go to spray-and-pray BBs to 20-30 meters. (and some still argue that it's more real than paintball, while it basically is just as arcade as paintball is)

An airsoft gun resembles the real things performance in several aspects. Though obviously not in range or penetration.(not even gonna mention hi-cap mags here)

For me it becomes the argument of Arma/Ofp videogames: Does some unrealistic features cancel out all the realistic ones? Not necessarily.

A decent quality BB is a good, extremely cheap training tool if you want to become a good shoot at close range, or just for training operation and safety.

Trigger time is trigger time, And will make you a better shot, no matter what the caliber is. My dad got me into shooting with a lever action BB gun at age 6.(under supervision, do not give your kid a BB gun for free use in the neighbourhood)

Edited November 2, 2009 by sparks50

[Second 0]

An airsoft gun resembles the real things performance in several aspects. Though obviously not in range or penetration.(not even gonna mention hi-cap mags here)

For me it becomes the argument of Arma/Ofp videogames: Does some unrealistic features cancel out all the realistic ones? Not necessarily.

A decent quality BB is a good, extremely cheap training tool if you want to become a good shoot at close range, or just for training operation and safety.

Trigger time is trigger time, And will make you a better shot, no matter what the caliber is. My dad got me into shooting with a lever action BB gun at age 6.(under supervision, do not give your kid a BB gun for free use in the neighbourhood)

I got my own arisoft gun in age of 9 (the one which shoots those small lead pellets), yeah i was pretty good shooter when i got into army because i had all the basics alright, after army i kept firing with airsoft gun because i didn't have license for any real firearms for a long time. So i agree with you. And even if i would have had rifle then airsoft gun would have been very good option as like you say it's cheap way to get thousands or more shots per year.

Airsoft guns (shooting 6mm plastic pellets) is good in training house clearning and such. We have used Cyma's AK74 for that and it worked pretty well, you have safety switch in correct place and is operated in correct fashion. Gun's shape is pretty close to real one etc. And it's fun to shoot at targets with something. Good motivation and spice-up for other wise rather boring stuff.

Because i'm poor bastard and can't afford to have real AK47 or similar gun to it, only owning cheap Russian over-under shotgun, i still drill with airsoft AK47 to keep up the feeling how it is handled. Not 100% right way to do it, but better than nothing. Cladly i get some real trigger time with shotgun, so that works as counterbalance, giving some recoil, noise, hearing disorder and boom-phobia, maybe even something to eat sometimes. :p

How ever in your quote my main point was to say that airsofters shouldn't act as cocky towards paintballers because they happens to have more realistic looking toys. Limitations in both are pretty much the same.