FlexiAI (WIP) discussion

[fabrizio_t 58]

Let me show a MAP screenshot showing the behaviour of a SF infantry group ordered to move towards a simple MOVE waypoint. An enemy stronghold was put onto a hill, in the middle of the SF path.

Since it was a night time infiltration-type test-case, AI was ordered to avoid any enemy engagement. As you can see AI group managed to outflank the stronghold while remaining undetected (green markers mean combatMode=GREEN).

Edited October 18, 2009 by fabrizio_T

[nkenny 1051]

Cool!

I want to see and hear more. Is it an optional thing? Does it require initiation? Is it similar to Group Link(x)? Are they noticably slower in responses?

How about additional interface options to help us take advantage of the new smarter AI?

-K

[dayglow 2]

wow :eek:

this is exactly the type of AI I dream of having. Looks amazing.

[paragraphic l 2]

Looks and sounds great, I believe I've once posted this as a suggestion to BIS; having the AI first analyse their enemy before attacking. Awesome that you've made them doing this. :)

It will make it much harder to survive an ambush, and this WILL for sure lead into some awesome co-op moments where quick reactions are necesarry to survive.

Keep up the great work! I always love the AI improvements being made, but would also love to see some people combining their skills to create even better addons, like you with Solus, KeyCat and SNKMAN for example :)

[fabrizio_t 58]

Thx to all for support.

here you go with a little sunday evening update: in the video linked below you can see some footage showing basic improved AI capabilities.

The mission shows a 8 men SF group moving towards its destination waypoint and encountering enemy (13 men) on its path. It's a short video, but it packs a serie of events:

- Just after a few steps the group leader identifies a threat in the town in front of him. The entire group hits the dirt; they all hold fire.

- After a few seconds (for threat evaluation) the leader issues an "advance left" command in order to outflank the threat while keeping stealthy (this is a ROE requirement, SF group in this mission should NOT take the first shot); the group follows slowly the leader, some units move while others cover them;

- while advancing slowly through an open area the group is spotted by enemy. One man falls. Group leader issues a fire at will command and moves to an exposed, but advantageous position. The group holds ground and keeps firing on enemy. 7-8 enemies fall. Luckily no more casualties for the group.

- Once the skirmish has ended the leader waits a few moments, then starts moving on the right, in order to repeat the initial flanking movement, this time on the opposite side ...

[Just uploaded, may be still in processing phase]

Edited October 18, 2009 by fabrizio_T

[Chunk3ym4n 10]

The video looks pretty good. Just wondering, will the AI ALWAYS be crouched? It seems kind of cool but in a gameplay sort won't it be tedious having them always be crouched? Also how does the AI know when to fire if they are trying to take down a group of soldiers? Is it like a 10 second countdown to fire that gets renewed whenever they spot a soldier and when shot at the countdown goes to zero which makes them open fire? And one last question, if you placed two groups very close to each other don't you think it would be awkward if they just crouched staring at each other holding fire until they have reported all the units which THEN makes them shoot each other? If not is there a minimum range in where if they are extremely close to each other they automatically fire at each other instead of holding fire to report all the units?

Edited October 18, 2009 by Chunk3ym4n

[kuIoodporny 45]

Brilliant stuff! I am amazed that somebody from community took care of it. Few days ago I've created Feature request ticket on DH: #5401

what?

the AI teammetes are hiding instead of kamikaze attacking everything? :D

aaaaasom

Edited October 19, 2009 by zGuba

[Barely-injured 0]

Amazing cant wait to see your next progress video....

anticipating the Beta eagerly :D

[Muahaha 10]

Hey nice and wonderful work! Can't wait to see the final release...

Was wondering whether will the AI leader act the same manner and issue such orders as those in the video.

[fabrizio_t 58]

The video looks pretty good. Just wondering, will the AI ALWAYS be crouched? It seems kind of cool but in a gameplay sort won't it be tedious having them always be crouched? Also how does the AI know when to fire if they are trying to take down a group of soldiers? Is it like a 10 second countdown to fire that gets renewed whenever they spot a soldier and when shot at the countdown goes to zero which makes them open fire? And one last question, if you placed two groups very close to each other don't you think it would be awkward if they just crouched staring at each other holding fire until they have reported all the units which THEN makes them shoot each other? If not is there a minimum range in where if they are extremely close to each other they automatically fire at each other instead of holding fire to report all the units?

If the group behaviour is set to AWARE, STEALTH or COMBAT units stay crouched or prone. This has been a design choice: due to AI spotting issues in ArmA2, moving standing AI units are very easily spotted.

However i plan to keep "default" stance for SAFE and CARELESS behaviour.

Actually there is a countdown on "CONTACT" state that leads to units opening fire. I am trying to implement a better solution (check the percentual of units in the group having a target lock), but it's quite time consuming to get it right, since i have no way to really check units line-of-sight.

If two groups are close enough they may bypass the CONTACT state, so they react immediately (assault, engage, hold ground or withdraw).

BTW:

i can't stress enough about the NEED to have spotting abilities and SKILL effects tweaked / fixed by BIS.

It makes NO SENSE having grunts mostly not being able to detect enemy infantry in open ground at 250-300m or more (in average they spot enemies in the 100-200m. range).

In urban areas and forests things are even worse.

Detection distance for infantry should be bigger than average small weapons effective range, or any maneuvering will be close to worthless, since in ArmA2 cover is scarce.

Low unit SKILL should grant significatively lower spotting capability (spotting time and distance) and noticeably worse firing accuracy, compared to higher skill.

Sadly that's not the case for current implementation.

See tickets in my signature.

These 2 basic problems alone in my opinion can OBLITERATE any effort in trying to have AI units act in a "tactical" manner.

Edited October 19, 2009 by fabrizio_T

[fabrizio_t 58]

Quoting Suma about the spotting problems with Arma2 AI,

see today post: http://dev-heaven.net/issues/show/4483

I have attached my test case for this. In my testing it seems the difference between moving and stationary is not very big, but the detection distance is too low.

My testing scenario:

- run ahead (hold W)

- wait for messages confirming OPFOR / BLUFOR has been detected by the other side

Results seen by me:

BLUFOR detected, dist 160

OPFOR detected, dist 120

It seems the spotting/detection problem is being acknowledged, let's hope for the best.

Fingers crossed.

Edited October 19, 2009 by fabrizio_T

[desertjedi 3]

Fabrizio, awesome work! As a matter of fact there's probably nothing that could improve Arma 2 gameplay more than exactly what you're doing!

I've actually given up on Arma 2 for now and have gone back to Arma. I found my Arma 2 AI mates to be completely inept at defending themselves and continually get slaughtered when they encounter the enemy. I've found problems with enemy AI as well. My missions usually end with me wishing I had had Fraps running so people would believe me. Ironically, I don't have these problems in Arma.

Is is possible to adjust the basic AI skill levels in Arma 2 missions? In Arma, the defaults were 1.0 for West and .5 for East. Are there similar defaults in Arma 2 missions?

I bought yesterday gamecam to be able to record some movies (problem is they are huge even in divx format).

Unfortunately, unless they've changed it recently, GameCam records in compressed mode which means you can't use incredible utilities like Super@ to control compression. I record (uncompressed) with Fraps and then use Super@ to do the final DivX compression. I usually can compress a 2.5GB Fraps file down to about 15-20MB (depending on quality) with a video width of about 500 pixels.

Keep up the good work!

[honkitonk 0]

Is the detection problem really a bug? To me it seemed that BI reduced the detection range after a lots of guys where complaining that the ai is spotting the player too early. never the less the video looks great.

[Banderas 0]

Fabrizio

After watching your videos I still trying to find my jaw under the desk :D

I have to remark something: it is clear to me that in your work unit skill will have a great impact on detecting/spotting range, accuracy, reaction time.

However it is unclear for me if using tactics (assesting enemy force, flanking, taking better positions, holding ground, charging, retreating, ect...) will be effected by the skill level.

On your vids I saw things from the perspective of SF operators engaging insurgents (?). However I didn't really see what the enemy was trying to do (seemingly turned tail and ran into the sea :) ).

It is very nice to see the AI get improved, but what about the "dumbness-factor"? In an assimetric conflict you won't engage an Erwin Rommel- or Casey Ryback-clone on every corner of the city, you will very likely run into "tactically dumb" people who doesn't know if "flanking" is being ate or drunk.

Now I don't ask anything from you to do, I would just like to know how will AI skill affect the use of tactical decisions, or will the AI have a "panic-factor" when he runs away, or when it "misjudges" its tactical situation and makes a bad decision.

[LeadCommando65 10]

Is the detection problem really a bug? To me it seemed that BI reduced the detection range after a lots of guys where complaining that the ai is spotting the player too early. never the less the video looks great.

The problem in earlier versions of Arma2 was, that the AI could locate the player by ear too precisely.

They could determine the player / enemy position nearly in a 500m range just because of hearing the target.

[NeMeSiS 11]

They could determine the player / enemy position nearly in a 500m range just because of hearing the target.

Stop overreacting.

I just modded the pre-1.03 values back, the AI sensitivity and sensitivityEar was just way too low after that.

[fabrizio_t 58]

Is is possible to adjust the basic AI skill levels in Arma 2 missions? In Arma, the defaults were 1.0 for West and .5 for East. Are there similar defaults in Arma 2 missions?

Unfortunately, unless they've changed it recently, GameCam records in compressed mode which means you can't use incredible utilities like Super@ to control compression. I record (uncompressed) with Fraps and then use Super@ to do the final DivX compression. I usually can compress a 2.5GB Fraps file down to about 15-20MB (depending on quality) with a video width of about 500 pixels.

Keep up the good work!

You can set skill levels ingame or into your .armaProfile.

Thx for the hint about Super@, i'll check it out

Is the detection problem really a bug? To me it seemed that BI reduced the detection range after a lots of guys where complaining that the ai is spotting the player too early. never the less the video looks great.

In my opinion BIS overdid the fix.

Units hearing capabilities after v.1.03 are more realistic (but they can still hear engines too easily).

Spotting after 1.03 is completely messed, in my opinion, detection ranges are way too short for infantry vs. infantry.

When a unit detects an emeny on open terrain only at 100-200m. distance any maneuvering is worthless since even with 10% skill that enemy will be able to wipe that unit with a single or double burst.

The problem seems to have been acknowledged by Suma today.

Fabrizio

I have to remark something: it is clear to me that in your work unit skill will have a great impact on detecting/spotting range, accuracy, reaction time.

However it is unclear for me if using tactics (assesting enemy force, flanking, taking better positions, holding ground, charging, retreating, ect...) will be effected by the skill level.

On your vids I saw things from the perspective of SF operators engaging insurgents (?). However I didn't really see what the enemy was trying to do (seemingly turned tail and ran into the sea :) ).

It is very nice to see the AI get improved, but what about the "dumbness-factor"? In an assimetric conflict you won't engage an Erwin Rommel- or Casey Ryback-clone on every corner of the city, you will very likely run into "tactically dumb" people who doesn't know if "flanking" is being ate or drunk.

Now I don't ask anything from you to do, I would just like to know how will AI skill affect the use of tactical decisions, or will the AI have a "panic-factor" when he runs away, or when it "misjudges" its tactical situation and makes a bad decision.

The whole idea beind these scripts is to allow to depict an asymmetrical war.

This does not mean that modded AI won't be able to handle a "traditional" conflict, it's a matter of taste what you would like to do with it.

I would not apply these scripts on masses of soldiers, though, since squad-level tactics shine when the "scope" of the conflict is limited.

In the videos you have seen the enemy is always powered by vanilla AI and given some GUARD waypoints, so it does not use any special abilities. With low skills it's dumb enough to depict any kind of insurgents, shame it's still super-accurate at firing and too good at spotting enemies ;)

About skill and AI tactics: my scripts will just provide a number of "elite" tactical behaviours, i wish to eventually give to the mission designer the responsibility to selectively choose which "behaviours" or special abilities to assign to any AI groups involved.

Edited October 19, 2009 by fabrizio_T

[Barely-injured 0]

In my opinion BIS overdid the fix.

Units hearing capabilities after v.1.03 are more realistic (but they can still hear engines too easily).

Spotting after 1.03 is completely messed, in my opinion, detection ranges are way too short for infantry vs. infantry.

When a unit detects an emeny on open terrain only at 100-200m. distance any maneuvering is worthless since even with 10% skill that enemy will be able to wipe that unit with a single or double burst.

The problem seems to have been acknowledged by Suma today.

Good to know I am not the only one who felt this way, and it is great to hear that BIS is looking into this. The horrible spotting and engagement ranges are what is preventing me from enjoying vanilla AI.

As a side note maybe they can look at SLX mod by Solus he seem to have got it right.

in addition to your work on this mod I greatly appreciate you leading the push to get BIS to solve this issue. I hope it all pays off...

[Uziyahu--IDF 0]

In the video it appears very professional and human. It looked like they even spread out their line in order to become harder targets and maximize their overlapping fields of fire.

[fabrizio_t 58]

In the video it appears very professional and human. It looked like they even spread out their line in order to become harder targets and maximize their overlapping fields of fire.

You have a good eye.

On enemy "contact" the leader issues a hit the dirt command, then units normally slowly regroup into a raw line formation, facing the enemy.

The type of formation is chosen on the fly and depends on the width of the angle of the "threatened sector": for example:

0-60° - LINE formation

60-120° - WEDGE formation

> 120° - DIAMOND formation (group is likely to be surrounded!)

It is a simplified model and not 100% working due to several limitations, but it's still better than vanilla ;)

[mrcash2009 0]

Even with known limitations to be ironed out, whats been done even with those known its the best looking AI movements ive seen for a long while.

This kind of thing is what makes you immerse more into the situation. To have enemy units behave this way would be some much better feel of "sim".

I don't think AI is awful vanilla but the very specifics of evaluation then make a move based on that is definitely lacking. If BIS can open up some more variables to help this, then that's a great community partnership to make the future feel of A2 one of the best.

Its clear that you demonstrating this which then shows and highlights the limitations is a good case/proof for BIS to make a move on helping (rather than simple complaints and showing OMFG youtube clips of things not working).

This is great, keep going with it :)

When your ready an Alpha for feedback would have a swarm of testers :)

[fabrizio_t 58]

Even with known limitations to be ironed out, whats been done even with those known its the best looking AI movements ive seen for a long while.

This kind of thing is what makes you immerse more into the situation. To have enemy units behave this way would be some much better feel of "sim".

I don't think AI is awful vanilla but the very specifics of evaluation then make a move based on that is definitely lacking. If BIS can open up some more variables to help this, then that's a great community partnership to make the future feel of A2 one of the best.

Its clear that you demonstrating this which then shows and highlights the limitations is a good case/proof for BIS to make a move on helping (rather than simple complaints and showing OMFG youtube clips of things not working).

This is great, keep going with it :)

When your ready an Alpha for feedback would have a swarm of testers :)

Thx for your support.

Despite the problems and deficiences i think vanilla AI is both solid and flexible.

So BIS made a good job. Now they just need to finalize it.

It's very early even for a (scripts) alpha release, but i'll keep everybody informed about both progresses and problems.

Edited October 20, 2009 by fabrizio_T

[SaBrE_UK 0]

Keep it up, looking great.

[GLeek 10]

count me for beta test ;)

[Chunk3ym4n 10]

Me too!