Dragon Rising has been released

[Flarmapoint 2 10]

I think his point was that its ironic that you say youll point out things that are retarded or untrue, when the majority of your posts can be summarised by those same two words.

But no, not really, if you read other posts by people here tonight, you, im a sure, can see who is posting the summerization of those two words! :)

Unless you take sides! ;)

[dm 9]

No DM, you're failing to see my point, i made a quick list of features for which information was gathered from interviews.

Which has since been proven to be mostly complete and utter bullshit?

Ive already mentioned that issues will be addressed, lets not got for a 50th time eh?

The same way dragon rising shipped with ALL of the features we were PROMISED during dev?

Give CM time dude! give them time! damn you're so impatient! The game is so new on the market, CM are still suffering from a hangover from the celbratory/victory party of the games gold status completion! lol :D

Its not about giving them time. They have a crap track record for supporting thei releases, simple as. A wolf is a wolf, its like saying "the wolf ate the last 3 lambs we put in the cage with him, but he MIGHT not eat this one..." Chances are he will. Same goes with dr. One, maybe two crappy patches (to go with the crappy game) and bam, they'll move on to the next game. I wouldnt be surprised if most of the dev team has already been moved to other projects.

As for the celebratory/victory party, I hope that most of them were drinking to dull the pain and shame of working on dragon rising...:j:

Also, what TimRice said.

But no, not really, if you read other posts by people here tonight, you, im a sure, can see who is posting the summerization of those two words!

Baseless claims, which are then proven to be false, and are not refuted. Yes, you clearly are the beacon of level headed thought and un-biased reporting.

Dude, everyfing I wrote was fact! :j:

[Blackhawk 0]

Taking into account the history of Codemasters supporting released games - This one won't be any different.

[Flarmapoint 2 10]

Which has since been proven to be mostly complete and utter bullshit?

The same way dragon rising shipped with ALL of the features we were PROMISED during dev?

Its not about giving them time. They have a crap track record for supporting thei releases, simple as. A wolf is a wolf, its like saying "the wolf ate the last 3 lambs we put in the cage with him, but he MIGHT not eat this one..." Chances are he will. Same goes with dr. One, maybe two crappy patches (to go with the crappy game) and bam, they'll move on to the next game. I wouldnt be surprised if most of the dev team has already been moved to other projects.

As for the celebratory/victory party, I hope that most of them were drinking to dull the pain and shame of working on dragon rising...:j:

Also, what TimRice said.

Well that my freind concludes this discussion. If your gonna be like that, no matter what happens, what else is needed to be said?

Its not my problem that you are still hurting from broken promises during development, and your generalization of CM as if the dev teams within are all the same, and act the same, produce the same, do the same, then you have a lot to learn DM!

Besides, how can one have a decent discussion with whats basically an ex bis dev? lol :D j/k

[4 IN 1 0]

My ignore list is growing, fast

[echo1 0]

Well that my freind concludes this discussion. If your gonna be like that, no matter what happens, what else is needed to be said?

Again, I refer to my last post. Proof of your claims plx.

Edited October 15, 2009 by echo1

[Flarmapoint 2 10]

Again, I refer to my last post. Proof of your claims plx.

Yo! ch 123, im irish too! :D

But, your previous post... proof isnt really needed, if there are problems, and they have been addressed in the bugs thread made by the devs. They will be addressed.

[Blackhawk 0]

Everyone's got to read this thread. A Russian guy who uses a translator is basically boasting to everyone about his pirated copy of DR. He even shows some pictures of himself playing the game.

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=389566

[Bulldogs 10]

The point CM is trying to say is that there were a lot of things promised by BIS (Will be released with a powereful set of modding tools, most realistic shooter ever! being some of the main ones) that never came true in the final product. Some of the things may be addressed in patches and others will likely never be addressed (and some can't due to engine limitations)

The point Flarmapoint is saying is that maybe CM will take their usual efforts and dump Dragon Rising after 1-2 patches, or maybe they'll focus on it and get it fixed, we just don't know until we wait and see.

Personally I don't think they will put too much effort into due to the fact that if they wanted the game to survive they would have released a dedicated server and better mod tools, but right now they don't have a dedicated server or an SDK on the horizon.

[weegee_101 0]

Edit to add: If anyone has any corrections, I'll be happy to make them. I'm pretty sure this is correct tho.

I have a few.

Well, I'm struggling to find much other than ball ("FMJ") for most weapons. Yes the vehicle weapons often have varying loadouts, but from what I'm seeing in the editor, its not exactly varied. Also, loltracers from EVERY weapon, even if its not a tracer type - see Mk19 firing tracer ammo 40mm...

All I've seen is ball and subsonic. If you have a grenade launcher you can see any of the grenades you're carrying in the ammo type menu as well. Standard fare for Marines (HE, Smoke), but less than ArmA or ArmA 2 (or even the original OFP) has as far as I've been able to tell. The SMAW also has two options, HEAA and HEDP. Again, that's no different from ArmA 2.

I agree, the tracers are stupid. Tracers on an M4 or M16 make me cringe anyways.

Not yet seen an AI kick in a door, but then I havent played the campaign yet, so I might be missing some scripted event there? (Jury is still out on that)

I haven't seen the AI do it, but I've done it myself. Sprint at the door and just before colliding with it, hit the open button.

Its not my problem that you are still hurting from broken promises during development, and your generalization of CM as if the dev teams within are all the same, and act the same, produce the same, do the same, then you have a lot to learn DM!

You don't know much about the software business do you? Your project is always run by the business, and the business is above your project manager. CM produces the quality they do because they hire a specific type of developer and I'm sure they make sure that they keep a short leash on the dev teams.

There are broken promises because the business wanted those promises broken. They did a risk analysis, and they estimated the game would still sell if they released it in its current state. This always happens on this style of development cycle. You are constantly looking at your builds, and managers are meeting to ask and answer the question "Is this what we want?".

Most of the "broken promises" are the kinds of things you can't just release a patch for. The AI is one of them, graphics are another. They did their risk analysis, and they underestimated the outcome.

Besides, how can one have a decent discussion with whats basically an ex bis dev? lol :D j/k

How is this even funny? I think many of us have strong respect here for the BIS developers, past or present. (Especially us who are also software developers; simulations of any sort or complexity are never easy.) I'm surprised you even have the tenacity to use "BIS dev" as a derogative.

[Bulldogs 10]

Everyone's got to read this thread. A Russian guy who uses a translator is basically boasting to everyone about his pirated copy of DR. He even shows some pictures of himself playing the game.

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=389566

Translation aside, his main point of his initial post (that there are no Russian Military in the game) is a good point.

Why are there no Russians in the game, being that the story board at the start tells you that this is an age old conflict between Russia and China, and a war broke out between the two countries, and the major battle is a fight for the oil on the island of Skira, a fight between the Russians and the Chinese.

The Americans, being allies with the Russians, are called in to support Russia in the battle, so where did all the Russian soldiers go?

Then again, it's not like there's any civilians or animals on the island anyways...

[dmarkwick 261]

I haven't seen the AI do it, but I've done it myself. Sprint at the door and just before colliding with it, hit the open button.

I haven't seen this in action, but it sounds like you're running up to the door and then opening it :D does this action actually result in a kicking-in action?

[mr burns 131]

I just wondered: How can a thread about a crap game that obviously only appeals to people who aren´t able to discuss (&/or think) on a normal level be fed by this community that it makes 10+ pages a day? Doesn´t it get booooring? Or is it bananatime already?!

[Madus_Maximus 0]

I just wondered: How can a thread about a crap game that obviously only appeals to people who aren´t able to discuss (&/or think) on a normal level be fed by this community that it makes 10+ pages a day? Doesn´t it get booooring? Or is it bananatime already?!

Everyone loves being negative and it's fun to have a good old laugh at something crap. Plus it's interesting to see people's opinions (and sometimes epicly LOL blind defence) of the thing.

[weegee_101 0]

I haven't seen this in action, but it sounds like you're running up to the door and then opening it :D does this action actually result in a kicking-in action?

Yep, it does. The first time I it happened I kinda did a "Woah... that was kind of cool." and got shot from the guy I was trying to run from in MP, which, at least for me, seems to be the saving grace so far. It is one of the better MP games shooters I have right now for the PS3.

I just wondered: How can a thread about a crap game that obviously only appeals to people who aren´t able to discuss (&/or think) on a normal level be fed by this community that it makes 10+ pages a day? Doesn´t it get booooring? Or is it bananatime already?!

Because we're having more fun talking about how much this game sucks instead of playing it.

Also:

Edited October 16, 2009 by weegee_101

[Flarmapoint 2 10]

You don't know much about the software business do you?

Yeah, but maybe a should have payed more attention in software development class eh? lol

Your project is always run by the business, and the business is above your project manager.

Indeed

CM produces the quality they do because they hire a specific type of developer and I'm sure they make sure that they keep a short leash on the dev teams.

Making assumptions is just pointless, my point there, was that each team within CM will have their own goals, differennt levels of intelligence & experiance, time, personalities, and man power. These would surely determine how good a game will be, and what support they plan to provide afterwards.

There are broken promises because the business wanted those promises broken.

No, surely not. Promises are usually broken unintentionally, numerous reasons would cause promises to be broken, final deadlines being one of the main reasons.

They did a risk analysis, and they estimated the game would still sell if they released it in its current state.

Incorrect, this the reason why games get delayed, a dev would never release a game in its 'current state' if by that i assume you mean unfinished.

Most of the "broken promises" are the kinds of things you can't just release a patch for. The AI is one of them, graphics are another. They did their risk analysis, and they underestimated the outcome.

Incorrect, is amazing how times have changed, you could make a whole new game via patch lol, ai defenitly can be improved with patch.

How is this even funny? I think many of us have strong respect here for the BIS developers, past or present. (Especially us who are also software developers; simulations of any sort or complexity are never easy.) I'm surprised you even have the tenacity to use "BIS dev" as a derogative.

FFS get a sence of humour lad!

Edited October 16, 2009 by Flarmapoint 2

[Bulldogs 10]

There are broken promises because the business wanted those promises broken. They did a risk analysis, and they estimated the game would still sell if they released it in its current state. This always happens on this style of development cycle. You are constantly looking at your builds, and managers are meeting to ask and answer the question "Is this what we want?".

This is what I hate about major companies. A smaller company (like BIS) develops 1 game as their main project. While they don't get the experience of diversity, it means that they want their one project to succeed so they put extra effort into it.

A major corp on the other hand has many projects, and they know full well that most of their projects won't match the popularity of something like CoD or BF2, so they develop with the the mindset of, "Let's try and make as much as possible on initial release", then they release one or two patches to show that they have some sense of support. If the game survives release then they release more patches (of course the rushed release prevents them from fixing anything) and if the game is a dud then they just dump it and haven't wasted too much money on post game development.

Of course, there's always the middle ground companies too. They are the ones that create 2-3 games every few years, but they try to push games out closest to possible completion as, well, possible.

An example of that is someone like Eden games. They released Alone in the Dark (2008) with every hope that it would be a hit (personally it was one of my favourite games), but reviewers gave it very low scores (like 3/10 low). The company was very upset by this, they actually went out and talked to fans, study groups, etc to find out what was so hated about their game so they could fix it up for the PS3 release of the game.

That said, the initial sales of the game were so low that the company couldn't financially support working on the PC version any more and a patch was never released.

As a side note, there's still a compensation case being held by Eden games against many websites/magazines. It seems that a alpha code was leaked out and many reviews popped up based on this alpha code. When comfronted every reviewer denied it and said it was based on final product but there were too many discrepencies, such as reviewing things that weren't in the game (but were in the original alpha code) and the fact that many of these reviews came out up to a few weeks before official release of the game and these reviews were done by websites/magazines that never recieved any preview build or full build of the game.... but now I'm going off topic, what was I talking about again?

Oh, that's right.. Major corporations = the Devil.

[von_paulus 0]

I just wondered: How can a thread about a crap game that obviously only appeals to people who aren´t able to discuss (&/or think) on a normal level be fed by this community that it makes 10+ pages a day? Doesn´t it get booooring? Or is it bananatime already?!

It is a proven fact, that the presence of trolls as always induced a certain level of excitement in some of our community members. It's quite natural.

I believe that's one way for addressing this trolling problem.

Still, it can be pretty funny sometimes.

[mr burns 131]

Everyone loves being negative and it's fun to have a good old laugh at something crap. Plus it's interesting to see people's opinions (and sometimes epicly LOL blind defence) of the thing.

Because we're having more fun talking about how much this game sucks instead of playing it.

Also:

It is a proven fact, that the presence of trolls as always induced a certain level of excitement in some of our community members. It's quite natural.

I believe that's one way for addressing this trolling problem.

Still, it can be pretty funny sometimes.

Meh, so now i am officially and community proven a non-fun guy. Awesome :D

Well just to put a little fun into one of my posts, here goes the (in)official BI Forum DR SP mission pack -

maybe hopefully it´ll help to get over with kill this game sooner: Linky

[sanctuary 19]

I just wondered: How can a thread about a crap game that obviously only appeals to people who aren´t able to discuss (&/or think) on a normal level be fed by this community that it makes 10+ pages a day? Doesn´t it get booooring? Or is it bananatime already?!

Seems to confirm unfortunately how things work, as i mentionned in the "selling mods/script for profit"

Just talk about an awesome and incredible genius piece of freeware on most boards, you'll be lucky if it generates 2 pages of discussion unless you are on the discussion board owned by the creators of such freeware.

Now talk about a stupid, boring cloned hundred of time half witted commercial game but heavily advertised by the medias, and you have a hundred of pages of "discussions" in no time.

[weegee_101 0]

No, surely not. Promises are usually broken unintentionally, numerous reasons would cause promises to be broken, final deadlines being one of the main reasons.

Incorrect, this the reason why games get delayed, a dev would never release a game in its 'current state' if by that i assume you mean unfinished.

These two responses again show how ignorant you are about the software industry. There are no truly "final" deadlines in a modern software project. You get to a point in your iterations where you will have spent too much money to actually turn a decent profit from the product.

At the end of each iteration, whether you use the vanilla iterative method or some agile method, you have to do some kind of risk analysis to see if the product is worth releasing. This is a complex process; risk analysis is never easy, and it gets harder as a project progresses. During this phase is also where you revisit finished (or even partially finished) features and decide if they need revisions.

Its hard to argue that this was a finished product. No dedicated server (which it apparently says it has on the PC version's box), missing features, and shoddy, unfinished netcode are all proof of this. Quazal is apparently still working on the netcode since they didn't stress test it in the first place. (Although in CM's defense my understanding is that Quazal is one of the slowest in the business on getting anything done.)

Incorrect, is amazing how times have changed, you could make a whole new game via patch lol, ai defenitly can be improved with patch.

You really don't know what it takes to make a good AI, much less how much time is required. There are programmers who all they do is make AI, and they spend months working on it. If you're interested in just how difficult it is, I would recommend reading a couple decent books on the subject.

A major corp on the other hand has many projects, and they know full well that most of their projects won't match the popularity of something like CoD or BF2, so they develop with the the mindset of, "Let's try and make as much as possible on initial release", then they release one or two patches to show that they have some sense of support. If the game survives release then they release more patches (of course the rushed release prevents them from fixing anything) and if the game is a dud then they just dump it and haven't wasted too much money on post game development.

Bingo. But...

Oh, that's right.. Major corporations = the Devil.

Hate to break it to you, but that's not always true. Business, especially software, is never white or black. Major corporations do what they do not because they just need more profit, but because it takes that much more money to grow. Corporations that concentrate on consumer software, such as video game companies, tend to cut corners more, because frankly your average consumer will take it and won't pay the price you would have had if you hadn't cut the corner. Corporations that concentrate on professional software however tend to strive to give a better product, because cutting corners often means losing customers to your competitor.

From what I've witnessed, smaller corporations make better consumer software, and larger corporations make better professional software. Its why most of the smaller game companies tend to make better software. (iD, Bohemia Interactive, Valve, Bethesda just to name a few) EA, Codemasters, Ubisoft, Activision, and others tend to make less great games and more crappy games (or rehashes) because its more expensive to run their company. In a perfect world your one great game would sell enough copies to keep your 20,000 employee company afloat for the next year while you work on your next blockbuster, but it just doesn't work that way.

Meh, so now i am officially and community proven a non-fun guy. Awesome :D

There was doubt before? ;) (I jest.)

Edited October 16, 2009 by weegee_101

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Well if that's supposed to look like a night then I'll eat my own socks :3 Ahem..

I see you been using the font I made. =]

[bangtail 0]

Well that my freind concludes this discussion. If your gonna be like that, no matter what happens, what else is needed to be said?

Its not my problem that you are still hurting from broken promises during development, and your generalization of CM as if the dev teams within are all the same, and act the same, produce the same, do the same, then you have a lot to learn DM!

Besides, how can one have a decent discussion with whats basically an ex bis dev? lol :D j/k

You're objective?

What a crock :rolleyes:

You're a DR fanboy whose claims have been refuted over and over again.

The whole fracking game was a "broken promise" FFS.

Yes Flarma, paying customers get angry when devs promise features and then deliver a game where none of the "promises" are fulfilled. I'm confused, should we be happy about that?

If DR is so great, why are you here again?

I tried to play it again last night with a mate and it's a pile of shite tbh. We emptied 10 rounds into some China man and he proceeded to stand up and return fire. What happened to the "1 shot, 1 kill" realism the devs went on and on about until about 20 minutes before release?

Eth

Edited October 16, 2009 by BangTail

[Bulldogs 10]

That's the one thing I like about Valve... Gabe Newell. Left4Dead 2 gets banned from Australia, so they start work on a modified version but meanwhile Newell tries to convince the OFLC (Office of Film and Literature Classification) board to accept the game as is because he has so much passion in his games that regardless of profit and loss, he just doesn't want to do something half-assed.

Unfortunately, for most it's a case of profit/loss risk projections and management. Businesses push out half-baked games, but only because it's more profitable to do so. For this same purpose, the good game companies that develop polished products always end up getting consumed by large companies because it's just not profitable to polish a game to perfection.

[bangtail 0]

That's the one thing I like about Valve... Gabe Newell. Left4Dead 2 gets banned from Australia, so they start work on a modified version but meanwhile Newell tries to convince the OFLC (Office of Film and Literature Classification) board to accept the game as is because he has so much passion in his games that regardless of profit and loss, he just doesn't want to do something half-assed.

Unfortunately, for most it's a case of profit/loss risk projections and management. Businesses push out half-baked games, but only because it's more profitable to do so. For this same purpose, the good game companies that develop polished products always end up getting consumed by large companies because it's just not profitable to polish a game to perfection.

Thankfully this hasn't happened to BIS and I hope it never does :)

Eth