Lisbon Treaty II. Ireland votes Yes?!!?

[zeep 3]

So says the media here in the Netherlands. Please Ireland do a recount or something.

Any Irish here? Any Irish glad that the EU laws come before Irish laws? Any Irish glad that your elections in the future can no longer change laws??

If the yes vote is valid, then it's a sad day.

If the Yes vote is confirmed, the focus will immediately turn to Polish President Lech Kaczynski and Czech President Vaclav Klaus, whose signatures are needed to complete ratification in both countries.

The Polish president has previously indicated that he would sign the treaty soon after a Yes vote in Ireland. But Mr Klaus has given little indication of when he would be prepared to take the same step, amid a fresh court challenge against the text.

The treaty needs to be ratified in all 27 member states to come into force.

Edited October 3, 2009 by zeep

[echo1 0]

Any Irish glad that the EU laws come before Irish laws? Any Irish glad that your elections in the future can no longer change laws??

Yawn...

I voted yes just to piss people like you off. Seriously.

[zeep 3]

Yawn...

I voted yes just to piss people like you off. Seriously.

Sorry you think that way. That's just dumb.

[Zipper5 74]

It's probably because I'm not Irish (though I am part Irish on my Dad's side), but am I missing something? What exactly is this all about? :confused:

[JdB 151]

They voted "No" before. Now the crisis has hit, Ireland is woefully unprepared, and they hope that the EU will get them out of trouble by voting "Yes" this time. If there hadn't been a crisis (and the government hadn't spent a fortune on getting people to vote "Yes" this time), it would still have been a "No".

[echo1 0]

Sorry you think that way. That's just dumb.

I was dumbing down my opinion for comic effect. The problem is that the Lisbon treaty is quite complicated, and the vast majority of it is completely irrelevant to the average Joe Soap. The rest is largely played around with by both sides of the campaign. But here's what I think -

1. The so-called 'facts' spread by the No campaign are complete and utter fabrication for the most part, and use completely idiotic slogans and catchlines to manipulate people (The Yes campaign does this too, but nowhere to near the same extent).

2. There are two types of groups who support the No campaign - conservative Catholics and Republican sympathizers, both have been responsible for so much of the problems in Ireland's history. I think if they had their way, Ireland would go back to the way that it was in the 1950s, which was basically to third world status.

3. There's so many allegations that if the Lisbon treaty is voted for, we will lose our sovereignty, democracy etc. etc. Even if this was true, it doesn't make any difference. Our political system (probably moreso than any other country) is full of cronyism and corruption. There's no incentive for change, and nobody can get into powerful positions without being part of "the gang". People's wishes are never really taken into account, and the government operates in a little bubble, oblivious to what the people need. Our two main political parties are exactly the same thing (they're not even like the Republicans and Democrats in the US who at least try and give a veneer of being different from each other) In fact, they used to be the same party, except they split off in the twenties for reasons that proved to be largely arbitrary. Irish political history largely consists of one getting into power, fucking everything up, and then the other one gets voted in and proves equally useless. The other smaller parties claim to be different, but in reality they'll just sell their souls to get into a coalition government with the bigger parties. There's only one exception, but that's the IRA party, and nobody votes for them because they're spastics.

My point? Even if Lisbon really means that we throw away all our control over our country, we probably will never notice the difference anyway

You may find my views excessively cynical, but there you go. I voted yes because maybe someone in the illustrious Franco-Belgian empire might know how to fix the mess that people made of our country.

Edited October 3, 2009 by echo1

[Baff1 0]

Looks like the Irish people took the money.

They would have been fools not to.

Not that they were ever going to be allowed to say "no" anyway.

Here in Britain, I can see the difference.

And I don't like what I've seen so far.

We already have replaced one corrupt and useless, cronyist parliament, with 2 corrupt and useless cronyist parliaments. Hardly an improvement I relish the thought of.

Every day another stupid law. Sometimes two. Every day taxes go up.

[HotShot 0]

Possibly simplifying things beyond any use, but I would argue that the vote had two factors: identity and the economy.

Do you feel European? Do you think the EU will help the economy?

And the voter balanced both ideas to come up with which way they would vote.

It seems a rather confusing treaty, but from what I have read so far I am tilting in the direction of being in favour of it.

[echo1 0]

Looks like the Irish people took the money.

They would have been fools not to.

Not that they were ever going to be allowed to say "no" anyway.

Here in Britain, I can see the difference.

And I don't like what I've seen so far.

We already have replaced one corrupt and useless, cronyist parliament, with 2 corrupt and useless cronyist parliaments. Hardly an improvement I relish the thought of.

Every day another stupid law. Sometimes two. Every day taxes go up.

The problem is that I can't really see the difference between having one useless parliament, and having two. Stupid laws get made anyway, taxes go up anyway, freedoms disappear anyway. On the other hand, the EU has done some great things for Ireland, so I'd really question the merits of biting the hand that feeds us when we need them the most.

[R3MF 0]

a shame. :(

[MehMan 0]

Why a shame? Has anybody ever read the lisbon treaty?

http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/full_text/index_en.htm

Come on, try harder. Read before accusing. Read the damn treaty before going: WE'RE ALL GOING TO BE SLAVES. Srsly.

[derk yall 0]

I have read the LS (LT in eng.) bud it's a long time so dont remeber it exactly.

Well, I am against it, not only cause the thing written in it. But also cause the non-democratic way of accepting it wich indicate there is something rotten in it.

About of the irish election there, it seems to people there, that if it wasn accepted now, there would be a new election, and again, and again, until Irland accept it. Also if, the content (of LT) was changed for Irland, dosnt it mean that it have to be again ratified in every country because it's not the same document other have signed?

Dont call me with the popular euro-sceptic, I want an united europe, but not this way of injustice etc. (like that the small states can be outvote, because they got a lower number of votes only because they are small)...

[MehMan 0]

(like that the small states can be outvote, because they got a lower number of votes only because they are small)...

It was like that before. It's only in the parliament, the council has 1 set per country and an equal vote. Each country has a representative number of seats in the parliament, but they don't all go into one party, you can vote any party and the representative they have selected in your country, to represent your party and their views in the european parliament party. I hope that makes sense now, but smaller countries become a part of something bigger. And I come from a small country, I agree that we can't decide and dictate what germany with a huge diversity should do.

[derk yall 0]

I know that the situation for us in small country will probably never be god for politic desicion, but in the cause of the Lisabon threaty, there is a big possibility, that the Beneš decret will be errased, because many german still want "theyre propriety" back, wich would became an big money lost for our country wich is even now quite without money, and to that we have still to pay cca 270 miliard of cech crown to Catolics in Vatikan, wich would bring our economy in a big lost.

[MehMan 0]

Why is that? The parties consists of people from all countries in the EU, not just germans. There's no german party there. And beyond that there's a bunch of other parties that can vote against it. I hardly believe the EU would pass a directive that the czech must pay the Vatican anything. The EU deals more on an economical level rather than neighbourly disputes(as we have found out). The internal issues are left to be resolved to the countries in dispute.

[derk yall 0]

Unfortunately, the payment to vatican is already decided, so there is no way in not paying it. I dont recal how it was decided, but it was an internal afair of czech rep. :) (Another faux pas of our corumped governament :) )

The anulement of Beneš Decrets is one of things that people are afraid there, the other is the imigrant from other countries, mostly africa and western asia. They are afraid about theyre work, also afraid of the problems of these culture wich were bring by them to countries like France, Germany, UK.

I dont say that I am also afraid about these thing, I have lived long time abroad in Belgium, and been in contact with others culture without problems (it was a good time when we discused the differences in traditions etc. :) ), but I understand the fear of other this is also given by the fact of problems with gipsys in there, so I understand that people are not very happy if our country will be forced to accept these immigrants.

[MehMan 0]

Unfortunately, the payment to vatican is already decided, so there is no way in not paying it. I dont recal how it was decided, but it was an internal afair of czech rep. :) (Another faux pas of our corumped governament :) )

I seriously wonder why don't we all hold our politicians by the balls. They are after all in service to us, not the other way around.

The anulement of Beneš Decrets is one of things that people are afraid there, the other is the imigrant from other countries, mostly africa and western asia. They are afraid about theyre work, also afraid of the problems of these culture wich were bring by them to countries like France, Germany, UK.

Hehe, we have a bit of a problem with seasonal workers and transport companies are being out-bid by Romanians and Bolgarians, because they'll just work cheaper. Another reason why more education is better. And that doesn't mean that you're still safe though, unfortunatley. But the higher ranked job you have, the less chance there is of somebody willing to do the same job for less money, simply because they know how much they worth and that there's a level of education not offered in their country. Like 3d engineering work(Autocad), that's unlikely that somebody from Sierra Leone will be able to do. Reminds me, need to learn Autocad, tons of work for that still around.

[derk yall 0]

Ah, the problems there is that there are too much of higly educated people and no one wanted to do jobs like being a worker/ builder etc, so these place were given to ukrainians, romanians or ilegally working foreigner (quite common fact) and now, when there is no place for for educated people, they can't go to these manual works, because, they are already given to these foreigners wich work for less of money.:) So the number of people without work grew quite fast, now in the crisis. This is why educated people are leaving and the science, hospital and education system is stagning, because, the people left this country. Also because the work (profesional, educ. and medic. system) isnt very good payed.

It is also mainly caused by the selling of state fabrics etc. (wich some of them was high grade) because, state fabric sounded too comunistic/socialistic. This hapened after the velvet revolution and in fact it was a big legal thieft. And also the chinese cheap goods, like vetements and shoes destroyed local quality fabrics with century of history, but that the famous capitalism that everyone wanted :)

But thats a little to much OT I think, ;)

PS: I¨m too learning in a 3d program very much of work and very time consuming.;)

[vilas 477]

"The Polish president has previously indicated that he would sign the treaty soon after a Yes"

i hate fact that politicians in my country wanna say yes not asking people

if people vote and they know what they vote - than okay

if people have no vote, but politician vote i is wrong

many times politicians lied to us

promised one thing in elections, did completely opposite things after

i don't know how in your countries, but i feel sick of many things we have after communism fall: unemployment, poverty, homeless, no social care, criminals on street, low punishment, corruption in courts, church everywhere wants do forbid sex fun, etc.

communism was wrong too, but new system is in many times on lies too

and i hate fact that politician want to say what people want

people in my country not trust politicians and choose "lower evil" or votes 30% of people

cause rest fuck elections :/ as there is noone to choose, one liar, second liar, third liar, thieves, liars and religion sick

over milion young and educated poles left country in last years (maybe even 5% of population was touched by temporary migration, but for sure 2% left country, young people, not old ladies 70 years aged, young people are mayb 15 milions, so if over milion leaves than you know... if not my relationship here with girl i would left too)

when there will be vote in Poland i want to read what is Lisbon treaty about

if it is that EU law is over Polish law, than i must know in what area

cause if Bruxels fu*** will decide that i cannot eat cheese or cucumber, than go away with this treaty

if Bruxels decides that rich german can buy my flat and throw me away on street homeless than fuck you europe ! i wanna be safe in my country and not afraid that one day someone can buy my block of flats which is now city property

we have not regulated many things in law, law is one big whole and i am afraid that someone can buy my home or etc.

but of course i would like to know other issues:

Polish law is very weak when it comes to judges

we have high corruption level, judge is god, and he can say in court that 2+2=5 and you cannot do anything

in Germany i know there is a law that if judge lies in verdict he can get 5 years in prison

in Poland all is "free will of judge" and i hate it, cause burglar which robbed my father's home was not punished, he laughed at court that "he knows someone and we will not do him anything"

and in fact , judge told that nothing happened, althought neighbours called police and patrol caught burglar in father's flat

if EU law will make fucking Polish judges to tell truth than i vote yes

but probably EU law not touches criminal law ?

other things is abortion and pregrancy control

if for example i would have car accident, i would be paralised

i couldn't be able to move hand, leg - i wanna be killed and i cannot imagine that catholic fucker tells me "suffer for Jesus" , cause for me such life is unworthy if you cannot do sex, walk, travell, sightsee, wash yourself, eat, shit etc.

now they do forbid it in my country :/

or pregnancy - woman health can be in danger, sick and ill child can be born, and woman has no right to decide cause catholics listen to pope and make me to obey their "god" laws

for example we have well know case where woman could lost sight/ability to see after birth, she wanted abortion, doctor refused cause he is catholic

woman lost some % sight(ability to see), thanx situation she not lost eyes completly to be blind, but she has very big problem with eyes

it is not first time, that doctor refuses to do something, catholic law holds me as atheist to live and die like i want to :/

i wanna know what kind of LAW is regulated by Lisboa treaty

if EU wanna order me in farmers area, than fuck off, i won't eat plastic western food

Polish food is natural and healthy

western food is plastic, i cannot imagine someone will stop or halt my farmers to do something which they were doing for 1000 years

but if it concerns euthanasia, abortion, truth in courts than okay

other things that annoys me

in EU there is low punishment for rape, paedophilia

for me - if someone hurts child - he deserve to be killed

EU taken away death penalty and it is one of reasons i am against EU

i think that bastard should not eat food from my taxes

in England there was pedophile killed by mob, cause he was released after 4 months of prison after some rapes

i cannot imagine 4 months for rape of child

i can imagine 40 years, i would kill that fucker myself if it was my child, for me if you touch child = you're dead, in prison peadophile is no human :D

some time ago there were few criminals faces photo published and human rights organisations fought it to "protect human rights" :/

i cannot put photo of guy who stole something in my shop near doors "this is thief" :/

but if for EU criminal is human than i fuck EU :P

in Russian TV you can see thief face to know that person is thief, burglar, killer, rapist...

in Poland his face is protected - sick :/

the same goes to people who droven car drunk, people who not pay alimony , where is child protection ? where is innocents people protection ?

you cannot take away drunk driver's car because "human rights and property rights" and he drives drunken without driving licence till he will kill someone :/

if EU law is only economy, not touching other (criminal , freedom areas) than go to hell with EU

i don't live in other countries but i feel sick of my own law, which from one side is very polite when it comes to criminal, but very strong when it comes to honest man

you cannot decide about your own life, but thief who stole from you have full package of law

you cannot beat burglar, cause you will invade "his human rights", you cannot shoot him, cause you will invade his rights, you cannot use his name cause of privacy protection...

like law was constructed for thieves and against honest people

in socialism thieves were afraid of Militia, afraid of jail

now they piss on Police and even write letter to commendant "if you will be invading me once more my lawyers will suit police..."

can you imagine ?

guy broke into my fathers flat (when father was away for long) , he took things, he came next day to take more things , neighbors called police, patrol caught him inside and...

in court he was laughing in my face, and i heard that if i will be making him troubles i can be suit for civil rights protection and false accusations etc.

in America i could shot this fucker dead if such person is in not his flat, in Poland i must kneel before him cause he have 3 lawyers and judge said nothing happened

the same i had in past when previous boss not paid me for my job, in court i get nothing , although i had proofs (security every day raport about who leaves factory with key return hours, website made for this guy, walls painted by me , etc.)

but he also "knew somebody" and was many times suited by other ex-workers

thats why so many Poles left this sick country :/ and thats why i argued with girl for not leaving, but love was stronger

instead of this in Poland we have "immunitee" for judges, members of parliament, they can go car 200 km/h on red light and NOONE can do them anything - immunitee

they can false documents, you cannot injail them, they have "immunitee because of function"

some time ago in radio there was a news

police was beating football hooligans, one of them was throwing something and shouting "fucks, fucks" to police

police tried to arrest him and he shown judge legitimation paper and they had to say "i'm sorry" and leave, maaaaaaaaaaaaaan it is sick :/

will EU law take away immunitee ? than i vote YES,

i want member of parliament and judge in jail if he steal, false, breaks rules for other people

also i want audio-video recording in courts

now i say A and they type B in protocol :/

previous minister Ziobro wanted to enter audio-video recordings in court but pro-liberals new goverment changed this as one of first their decisions

It is also mainly caused by the selling of state fabrics etc.

we had the same, there were manufactiories (do not use "fabric" in english it means material like cotton, jeans, nylon, goretex, use MANUFACTORY) sold by one percent of it's value, but sold because of corruption

later those manufactories were destroyed to not competee with west owners, they bought and locked production

my uncle worked as enginner's chief in one of such factories, later production was closed by new owner, which was in fact hypothetical competitor, but he get manufacture for small % of it's value

and later he resold it as ground with profits

people lost jobs, new owner killed competion and "big capital" is happy

Edited October 5, 2009 by vilas

[whisper 0]

I wouldn't expect EU taking over your internal policy, Vilas.

EU is there atm mainly for economical reasons and will legiferate over economical reason (your "I want to eat my own cheese" is economical matter ;) )

How your justice system is handled I don't think is smtg EU looks to change anytime soon

[kavoven 4]

All people contra EU - very well, thats your (short sighted) opinion but if you don't want to accept the treaty, please pay all the money back the EU invested in Ireland :rolleyes:

After all this mess I'd rather prefer an inner circle with countries who really want to participate in a 21th century political system. I can't believe that people are still thinking in this pre 1945 way. Either Europe stands strong and united against growing economic nations like China, India and Brasil or we'll lose the race.

In my opinion Europe hasn't gone far enough at all. One single European country would be much more effective. Of course we'd lose our individual national identity but again, this is the kind of thinking that didn't work out very well as history showed.

Edited October 5, 2009 by kavoven

[derk yall 0]

Why would be our way of seeing short sighted?

Every one talk about democracy, but the way the LT is showed to us in our media (wich a very pro LT) and the way of it ratification I see only the fall of democracy in EU.

Kavoven, you dont understand what people want, they dont say, that they doesnt want Europe Union in wich they are. But!!! They dont want the Lisabon threaty, that's nothing against EU etc. Also the money wich were given for the vote in Ireland were also from these non LT :j:(see the difference betwen non europe and non LT?)

IF EU have to be a fair political system, then every country in it have to have the same value of vote, wich wouldnt decided by the amount of citizens. (I the old time, it was common to hear in the East block:

"Russian to other countries: We will vote, since we have most citizens we decide what wil be done"

And the way in wich the LT is done, it seems only like an evolution of RVHP (Comecon).

[kavoven 4]

Pay the same amount of money and your vote will be equal. Its as easy as that.

[derk yall 0]

In that way, it seems that the LT is only a loose for CZ

During past years we have been in EU we have given in it more money than we received back.

And it's kind of funny, you try to show that the mighty western democracy system depend only on money and how much of money you have. That's not very "democratic":j:...

[kavoven 4]

Every country in the EU contributes their share to the whole system. This can be money, people, knowledge... Still, it mainly depends on money since thats the only real tradable value.

If you don't have enough money you have to pay with something else. In this case less votes.

Further, the large countries are already part of this network since a much longer time. You're point is like joining an enterprise as a new employe and complaining about not receiving as much money as the president.