FP : DR - News & Discussion

[bionic 10]

Quote[/b] ]No. I'm buying games from now on, not mods. That i learned from ArmA. If base game sucks, mods can't make it much better. That also i learned from ArmA.

Mmh isn´t that what it is all about with OFP and ArmA go where you want do what you want and changing the game in the way you like it? I mean the OFP campaign was great the one of ArmA not so much but those are not the factors why both games are still around today.

Do i really have to try to like ArmA the way you like it?

No sure not

[walker 0]

Quote[/b] ]No. I'm buying games from now on, not mods. That i learned from ArmA. If base game sucks, mods can't make it much better. That also i learned from ArmA.

Mmh isn´t that what it is all about with OFP and ArmA go where you want do what you want and changing the game in the way you like it? I mean the OFP campaign was great the one of ArmA not so much but those are not the factors why both games are still around today.

Do i really have to try to like ArmA the way you like it?

Come join the Darkside

Bwaa Haw Haw Ho Ha

[max power 21]

I think that what you mean to say is if you think a game sucks, addons and mods will not change your opinion.

Isn't that just what i said? Or can it be read differently?

You wrote it in absolutes.

[Leader-1 0]

Quote[/b] ]Manday ask the person who wrote the Eurogamer interview

as far i know he confirmed that he wrote exactly what CL said

Quote[/b] ]

EG:

"One of my personal bugbears is the belief that PC gaming and console gaming have IQ requirements that are different," insists Clive Lindop, the game's senior designer, AI specialist and a veteran of the original Flashpoint team."

if it was typo or misunderstanding it was already removed from the article ...

and now please (last polite demand) stop it discussing here as it's something what people in question and firms in question must resolve inbetween them ...

so continue discussion about OFP:DR as game

I know you guys seem to be finished discussing that eurogamer article, but a staffer left a comment for it

"Hi guys. In response to feedback, we have clarified Clive Lindop's position and confirmed he was not part of the original Operation Flashpoint development team as we had been told. We've updated the article and regret the error."

[eble 3]

Poor clive!

OFP-DR will be a sucess and later on his CV, it will state he invented the 'wheel'

[BLSmith2112 0]

Poor clive!

OFP-DR will be a sucess and later on his CV, it will state he invented the 'wheel'

Yup.

Hey didn't CM dump like 26 MILLION into OFP2? Is that how much it costs these days? Or is that an unimaginable waste of money?

[max power 21]

Poor clive!

OFP-DR will be a sucess and later on his CV, it will state he invented the 'wheel'

Yup.

Hey didn't CM dump like 26 MILLION into OFP2? Is that how much it costs these days? Or is that an unimaginable waste of money?

A little from column A, a little from column B.

[sparks50 0]

OFP had a budget of about $600,000. I guess money after all isn't everything then.

[MehMan 0]

Yup.

Hey didn't CM dump like 26 MILLION into OFP2? Is that how much it costs these days?

Big crew, big ads, big money.

GTA4 had a budget of around 100 mil.

[Second 0]

And making good game is much more costly these days. I believe it was estimated that it costs several million US dollars to develop good game for PS2. What is standart costs of good quality PC shooter? I'd think it's much higher if starting from scratch.

[Baff1 0]

Yup.

Hey didn't CM dump like 26 MILLION into OFP2? Is that how much it costs these days?

Big crew, big ads, big money.

GTA4 had a budget of around 100 mil.

World of Warcraft had 40 million. Pounds that is.

Obviously the pound symbol on this form still looks like this £. Ahem, hint hint.

[Commando84 0]

I think if you have a engine you can came off cheaper but from scratch, it will cost ya

[kavoven 4]

I know that DTM Race Driver (Published and Developed by CM) hat a budget of 50 Million $...

[sanctuary 19]

And making good game is much more costly these days. I believe it was estimated that it costs several million US dollars to develop good game for PS2. What is standart costs of good quality PC shooter? I'd think it's much higher if starting from scratch.

Making good games is not requiring that much insane amount of money.

It is more the various technologies used that are very and sometime extremely expensive.

By example, if you want high quality CGI intro/outro/ingame videos, your development cost will begin to skyrocket as CGI companies will sell you their work for a high price.

Making your game videos using your ingame engine is then a better choice to cut the cost a lot, certainly it will never been the same quality as a hq CGI one, but the difference of cost is very important.

The same as for your music. You want the best orchestral company of the world to make musics people will remember are grandiose for years ?

Sure, but it will cost a lot. To cut the high cost, you could hire a musician skilled in computer musics for much less.

And your game engine, do you try to build your own, or do you want to use by example the very high priced latest build of the Epic unrealengine, again multiplying your development cost ?

etc... etc...

And that without counting the various parasites along the chain of command that contribute in nothing but will get money, increasing development cost.

[4 IN 1 0]

i wonder how much budget BI get on ARMA 2

[Heatseeker 0]

i wonder how much budget BI get on ARMA 2

Probably less than what CM wasted on CGI alone?

I dont know, i mean the graphics engine and all the development software are made in-house so most if not all the development is internal.

They'll need to hire a bunch of actors and the music guy..

Ofcourse the costs of maintaining a company with many employes and all associated expenses must be high so if you include that in the budget, yeah.

But i still find game budgets exagerated, i mean tens of millions?

[mr.g-c 6]

Of course Arma2 is much cheaper to produce. Average wages in czech are 1/3 - 1/2 compared to the richer Euro-Zone countries (Germany, Autria, France, Great-Britain, etc.).

Don't forget that the big crook companies like EA, Codemasters, etc. are investing around 1/2 of the complete budget into advertising!

[sparks50 0]

Finding music to a videogame sounds like a fun job.

I know a couple of good unsigned bands on Myspace I would ask for free deals.

[4 IN 1 0]

Finding music to a videogame sounds like a fun job.

I know a couple of good unsigned bands on Myspace I would ask for free deals.

i would stick with the OFP/ARMA one

[sanctuary 19]

But i still find game budgets exagerated, i mean tens of millions?

There are some people crazy enough to actually pay that much a single guy so he can do his job that is ... kicking a ball.

I believe it's the world that is crazy, when near to that amount of money thrown here and there that easily you can see people that can barely afford a bit of food for their family.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Finding music to a videogame sounds like a fun job.

Actually it´s hard work as is composing music for a movie. In fact I think it´s even harder as a game like Arma is not really a plot-following thing as a movie is where you can time your music specifically to certain events or moods that are changing constantly.

For example a lot of games use a 3-5 component music segment system where the music automatically changes depending on ingame actions or situations. The user only notices that the music gets more pumping, louder or more aggresive while the tune of the theme stays basically the same. This is very complex to compose as there also have to be bridges to get back to the original theme once the situation calms down without giving the player the impression that he´s listening to different tracks.

Such was of course not implemented in OFP or Arma but it´s possible to do it with scripting. Still...it´s hard to compose music for a game and imo the original music by Ondrej Matejka made OFP pretty unique. I didn´t like the revamped versions that came with Arma much, my own opinion. Apart from the vocal tracks performed by Seventh these are classics that you can listen to without getting bored.

Music-design for games or ads is a pretty complex thing. Picking some random songs from myspace may be tempting but it´s not the way it works if you want to have music in your game that doesn´t bore you to death when you listen to it for the 25th time, this is why those compositions are pretty expensive if you want to have them fit your game perfectly. I hope there is more budget for Arma 2 than with Arma 1 as the snippets where not really that original and complex as the OFP soundtrack was.

Remixes are nice, but taking it to a new level may be the way to go even if that means to invest more money into that segment.

I´ve done a theme for a Riddick presentation you can listen to at my MySpace account linked in my sig. The song is called Riddickula. It actually took a really long time to get it sorted to fit it on the game-theme.

[max power 21]

Wages also factor in.  Say everyone in your studio gets the same 50,000$ salary.  I don't know how that works as an average but software engineers will make more than that and junior artists, less.  So you have a team of 20 people working for two years, that's already two mil.  That's without any other costs, not even pop, coffee, or doughnuts, studio rent, utilities, workstations, etc. For two million dollars you can employ 20 talented people to sit outside in the rain and starve.

[Placebo 28]

Hey didn't CM dump like 26 MILLION into OFP2? Is that how much it costs these days? Or is that an unimaginable waste of money?

It's not about how much you spend it's about how much heart and soul that gets put into a game.....

As this is the most active thread for the other game I'll edit the title accordingly (don't want to keep a falsely misleading title)

[Baff1 0]

Hey didn't CM dump like 26 MILLION into OFP2? Is that how much it costs these days? Or is that an unimaginable waste of money?

It's not about how much you spend it's about how much heart and soul that gets put into a game.....

As this is the most active thread for the other game I'll edit the title accordingly (don't want to keep a falsely misleading title)

Funnily enough that's exactly what my mate said.

He's applying for some dutch studio that makes Gears of War, and he said, it's the people that count.

Two things you need, talented people and people who like each other and are excited about their work.

That's why I never invest in video games, it's too hard to predict if a company has that dynamic.

That said money does help. Promotional material and outsourcing the art for example. If you have money you can free up a lot of your staff from the mundane stuff like textures and modelling. Get a lot more polished content in during the same time frame.

[walker 0]

Hi all

The big company problem

Being a large company means you you tend to think size will solve your problems. Spend more money, use more resources, use a bigger team etc.

A second problem is that it tends to lead to looking at the market as a mass market and thus creating a mass market solution hence the common lowest denominator.

The thing about a recession is that larger companies have larger overheads and run out of cash more quickly. Having a large project with millions invested in it means there is x million is tied up in a large project when your cash needs are at their highest and because there is a recession borrowing is tight.

In essence the large companies economies of scale start to work in reverse. It often makes large companies desperate.

They cannot cut resources as that means the product will not be produced at all; straight loss. So they look to reduce deliver-ables; the quality of what they produce so as to cut costs and corners. While relying on their past good name to fool former customers into buying a pig in a poke. This is often a sign that a company is in the decline phase.

It is called "Whoring the Brand" it is the marketing equivalent of AIDS.

It is easily diagnosed by asking the question "Are sales more important than quality?"

If a company is dropping features and appealing to a "perceived" mass market I would say those were major indicators.

Effects

The reason why it is the the marketing equivalent of AIDS is, that in recession people want to save money thus they gravitate to two solutions either:

Lowest Cost; Pound Shop rather than Woolworths. Short term cost saving.

OR

Quality; Toyota rather than GM/Ford/Chrysler. Long term cost saving.

The reason people buy Quality in a recession is that:

1st) Quality is cheaper to buy in a recession due to general price depreciation making the quality product a bargain at sale prices.

2nd) Customers perceive quality, to last longer thus saving them money in the long term. In the case of a game re-playability is that perceived longer lasting product.

This has a tertiary effect for small companies that offer quality; it creates a virtuous circle for the quality product as its sales go up at the expense of larger companies with lower quality products that fail, thus allowing the quality company to take advantage of the large companies Economies of Scale while maintaining a small companies cost base.

As Baff1 and Placebo pointed out people have to ask who is producing the quality product?

Simple

Kind Regards walker