FP : DR - News & Discussion

[Scrub 0]

But I don’t understand your comment on capabilities, OFP/ARMA’s engine is very old and limited now, how many features have player been asking for that have not been included one way or another. OFP should include many capabilities that OFP or ARMA2 wont as already pointed out.

I can see your point on many of the items posted, except that quote above. Would you please elaborate on what you mean by limited? Because this seems like an ever feature-expanding engine. I haven't seen anything yet that has done this. So, I guess I'm really wondering what you have seen that does all this better?

Walker, you forgot the 4 player co-op on PC and 2 player co-op on console.. :(

Edited April 28, 2009 by Scrub

[JdB 151]

Well there is actually a small town in the game equal in size to those we have already seen in OFP, so there is urban combat.

As pointed out civilians are irrelevant to the story so no big deal, really how much did they matter during the CWC campaign, apart from a few missions there were never even anywhere to be found.

Micro battles i have do idea what you're talking about, i assume this is typical speculation.

&

Micro multiplayer i agree with, far to limited amount of player but there should be a decent amount of AI.

Wildlife i really dont care about, was it even in OFP (other than seagulls :p )? Made no difference then to me then so why would i miss it.

I think you are missing the point that he/they are trying to make. DR is missing things that even OFP, an 8 year old game had and DR doesn't, or at an even more limited level, a game due for release in 2009 or 2010, almost a decade after the release of OFP. Games have come a long way since 2001, and that increased immersion should be reflected in the experience of CM's "Authentic Warfare!". From the current feature list of DR, you'd think it was the prequel to OFP1, not it's supposed sequel.

Micro battles, because the number of Ai will be even less than in OFP1, which is an ancient game by now in terms of just about everything technology related. The same goes for Micro multiplayer, you can have a "decent" amount of Ai, but not as much as in any of BIS' games.

Wildlife was not in OFP, but it was in ArmA1 (although limited). There is no operating theater in the world were animals are completely missing. Besides the enemy, the largest threat besides the enemy in places like Iraq and Afghanistan are animals like scorpions and snakes. Now those wouldn't live on either BIS' island or CM's, but there would be animals like wild boars that can pose quite a threat to your stealth and health. More "Authentic Warfare!" than CM's idea of authentic warfare, whose vision of authentic warfare seems eerily reminiscent of that of the developers of CoD4.

The same goes for civilians. There are some civilians living there (or there wouldn't be signs of civilization), and they can't all magically disappear before the first shot is fired. No sane invading force will ever announce their plans ahead of it's execution to prioritize the lives of civilians over that of the success of the operation, so they would still be there when the Chinese invade.

Edited April 28, 2009 by JdB

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to ricbar89

Battlefields that stay from mission to mission

ArmA I already has the ability to return to existing battles, its called the save button in SP, try playing a CEX mission. Oh and MP is now Persistent so you can return to existing battles there to. Oh and the save button will work in MP ArmA II. In fact ArmA II allows you complete campaigns as an MP Team!

As to Armor penetration and FLIR

BIS are constantly improving their product, I know for an absolute fact this was one of the reasons the military chose it as the Defacto NATO simulation engine, they even release updates years after other developers would leave their customers high and dry. And the BIS MOD community release improvements all the time, You may be surprised what ArmA II is capable of. :bounce3: :bounce3:

Micro battles

Boomer said DReck was going to have

...a massive bot army vs massive bot army haha.

As I pointed out DReck has maximum entity count of just 256, just use Google and you will see, which is less than an 8th of what even BIS's OFP1 was capable of at 768 x 4 sides.

That will not be a massive bot Army that is barely three platoons while ArmA is already capable of multiple battalion All Arms battles with entity counts in the thousands.

Hence Micro-battles

Alll the other missing stuff

As to No Flyable Jets (just some end level boss script), No Civilians, No Wildlife, No Editor for the consoles and No large scale MP battles; they are part of the richness of the environment of what BIS and the Community gave us all in BIS's OFP1. CM compared DReck to BIS's OFP1 by trying to sell it as the sequel, something they are not even legally allowed to do as I understand it.

Selling people a pig in a poke

How can DReck be doing anything but trying to fool customers with a shoddy product wrapped up in a name, when so much is missing from BIS's OFP1?

When they CM chose to compare DReck to BIS's OFP1 and to call DReck the sequal and just whore the OFP brand they gave them selves the marketing equivalent of AIDS.

CM have no one but them selves to blame.

Sadly walker

Edited April 28, 2009 by walker
Titles, Clarity

[IronPyramid 0]

This is quite thoroughly depressing. It's funny that a feature can be dropped, and those of us, who are so blinded by conviction that their champion dev team will make a better game, that it can be seen as no big deal that there are no civvies. That its better to leave out jets, they are irrelevant in modern war right?! And one really awesome OFP sized town...... One town... So, with one town, one farm, and I'm going to wager, no more than 4 military bases, (US, Chinese, Russian, and possibly another, maybe airport base?). What the hell is on this island!?!! In all the pics and vids I've scrutinized, I cannot for the life of me find a suitable forest, one that really resembles the forests you could run through as a shortcut (not to mention means of cover) in OFP.

I'm just glad I'm content with ArmA 2, cause if I had as much riding on DR as some of you guys do, I think I would have probably begun to crack my teeth from gnashing them so much.

Lets see this game compete with OFP, maybe then, it can move on to competing with the first ArmA.. And far along down the road, when we're getting news about ArmA 3, maybe they'll have their own home made mil-sim game.

[Baff1 0]

Jets haven't been left out.

They are in both games.

Over the 8 years I have spent playing OpF and ArmA, I can count the hours I have spent piloting jets on two fingers. Speaking for myself it's no great loss. The maps are far too small and the controls too unwieldy.

It would be nice if flyable jets were included, but it's less than a deal breaker for me if they aren't. If I want a game about flying jets I will buy Lock On.

Just as Lock On is my prefered game for jets, BF2 is my prefered game for urban combat. (Or GRAW even).

In ArmA fighting in urban enviroments was such a miserable experience I prefered BF2. (I was fighting the game not the enemy, so to speak).

In all honesty I expect it to be the same in ArmA2.

You have identified one of the area's that OpF2 has a chance of providing a superior experience to BIS.

It may not. But it might. While not exactly confident, I am certainly hopeful.

Vehicles is another one. Better handling physics, better armour modelling better destruction animations. Better systems.

I fully expect OpF 2 to outdo ArmA 2 in this department.

If you don't want it, you don't want it. If the very idea of it offends you.

That's your right.

It doesn't have to be the greatest game ever for me to want to play it.

Neither does ArmA 2.

I'm not however, rooting for it to be a miserable failure just because of the title.

Quite the opposite. It's a game clearly marketed at gamers like me who enjoyed the original.

The area's where ArmA excells above other games, you have failed to mention. Instead you are trying to make out that it's low points are in fact, high points. Jets and urban combat in ArmA are poor. Just as they were poor in OpF before that.

The enviroment, the story telling, the hardware scaleability, the mission editing and modability, the post release support....Now these are all area's of the game that OpF2 cannot expect to compete with ArmA2 on.

But urban combat and jets? If either of those things were elements of the game I was unduly worried about, ArmA 2 would be right off my shopping list from the outset.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Baff1

[ricbar89 0]

Whah, thats a lot of response. :p

For starters Scrub:

There are a lot of limits to the engine, BIS have admitted this themselves. As of now there is no other engine out there that comes near to the OFP/ARMA engine, but that not to say it isn’t showing its age. ARMA2 still wont have micro details like streams, rivers, ditchs, trenches etc. In one of the latest ARMA2 videos I saw a V-22 landing then slowly rotating on the ground due to the dodgy physics just like in OFP. Listen to the radio interviews with BIS if you haven’t yet, it’s a good insight to what BIS can/cant/will/wont do. The AI still cant compete with other games out there in many aspects, yes it can carry out a mission unscripted but still doesn’t know how to use cover properly.

I44_John:

I understand what you’re saying but many sequels have dropped features that were in the original, sometimes it just suits the new direction. Red faction 2 will have one of the most advanced destruction system of all time, but unlike the first (which came out years ago) it wont include landscape destruction. Does that mean it will never live up to the first, of what I have seen I would say no it doesn’t, looks great to me.

Im not saying no civs is a good thing whether it makes sense to not, but its not a big deal, even if there were there their role would be tiny. If they couldn’t get off the island than they’d just go behind the lines and stay there, after hiding out in the forest for a while.

What needs to be understood is the Island is essentially wilderness, like something out of Siberia, a tiny native populace with no relevance to the story. Its not like ARMA2, lot of guerrillas wondering the lovely countryside, its a superpower v superpower battle out of WW2 pacific. How much of a role did civs have in those battles, not much as Baff pointed out, or wildlife, I don’t think there was much about after Marines started pouring up the beach.

Same with AI planes, am i a glad? Don’t think so, but I don’t really mind.

And Walker:

Walker they still may be constantly improving but there still wont be an FLIR, according to BIS all tanks will have the same optics (might be wrong on that one), we still cant walk on moving objects (although it works with VBS we wont get it), hasn’t firing out of vehicles been cut, hopefully not. Still no armor penetration which is a huge factor of modern warfare. No matter how long BIS have been improving were still waiting for these basic things.

And I know modders have done amazing things, but why must we always rely on them for what I would consider basics. But this is an area that ARMA2 should expect to beat OFP: DR.

But I couldn’t agree more with all of you about the editor, terrible decision. The heart and soul of OFP, more important that MP with for me. :(

About the name and Codemasters developing, theres a lot a politics there and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but really judgment on the game should be withheld until its released. We’ll see how it compares when its out, but until then its not really fair to judge. It could turn out to be a terrible game and ruin the OFP name, but it could turn out to be a good game but not worthy to the name, but it could also turn out to be a good game worthy to the name. But until you have played it its speculation, by all means judge and bash if necessary when its out, but when its out...

My point is I will be buying ARMA2, but ill be buying OFP: DR too, Why? Because it should have things ARMA2 doesn’t, like FLIR and proper optics for all the weapons, proper amour penetration, brand new AI and animations, new physics etc but also because its another game milsim that appeals to me and i hope Codemasters do I great job as ill have two games to play. ;)

Edited April 29, 2009 by ricbar89

[SaBrE_UK 0]

To the recent posters: I know it's been said before and your discussion isn't unconstructive by any means, but there is something to be said for waiting until both games are released and their features and gameplay on full show. I mean, I agree that no civilians or flyable jets are odd decisions, but I'd like to see how the mission dynamics of OFP2 compensate. Also, with ARMA2, none of us know how the missions and story will turn out, or how the features will knit together, or how much exactly it improves on ARMA1.

I can totally appreciate that for some, no civilians is a major thing, and that it is a minor thing for others. Both groups are right because they are both purely subjective opinions.

For both games it's a case of we'll see.

@Ricbar89: One thing, out of curiosity:

proper optics for all the weapons

Have they finally fixed the ACOG sight view?

[Mafia101 0]

There are a lot of limits to the engine, BIS have admitted this themselves. As of now there is no other engine out there that comes near to the OFP/ARMA engine, but that not to say it isn’t showing its age.

Engine could have some limitations but It's still room to improve. Best example is VBS2, which pushing it to new level constantly.

I'm sure DR can't beat VBS2 in any factor :)

Walker they still may be constantly improving but there still wont be an FLIR, according to BIS all tanks will have the same optics (might be wrong on that one), we still cant walk on moving objects (although it works with VBS we wont get it), hasn’t firing out of vehicles been cut, hopefully not. Still no armor penetration which is a huge factor of modern warfare. No matter how long BIS have been improving were still waiting for these basic things.

Give me confirmation that those things will not exists in final product. More over, there is no videos or pictures where you can see clearly that you cant walk on moving objects or you cant shoot out vehicles.

But all others, give me confirmation link where dev's said that

And even If there isn't FLIR or stuff, It always possible to add later or community can make them ;) VBS have them, so I see no problem :D

Because it should have things ARMA2 doesn’t, like FLIR and proper optics for all the weapons, proper amour penetration, brand new AI and animations, new physics etc

Haha, No confirmation about those things so no believe any of them. Brand new AI is also joke because it's very complicated to make good AI who also thinks him self and thinks with no errors...

But without confirmation (video or image), I wont believe CM non a word. They even haven't confirmed how modable game will be. They also screwed fans today in Gameking convention for about showing new in game footage, that all fans there been waiting for, they showed only video which was a documentary about the process of clives mustach grewing! HAHAHA pretty FAIL!

Why I should believe their words?

Edited April 28, 2009 by Mafia101

[njmatrix 2]

Well We will see.. May 26 OF:DR is being released. Preordered mine today

[sparks50 0]

That would make it to the street at least a month before Arma. Shall be interesting to see what happens.

Edited April 28, 2009 by sparks50

[nodunit 397]

The reason for the lack of civvies is the island is sparsely populated and mostly wilderness. Two powers fighting over the resources the island bring, not interested in the population which is to small (and most "have fled" anyway) to have any bearing conflict.

No the reason for lack of civies is CM didn't think they were important enough to include. Not to mention by including civilian the rating must be raised and possible controversy come into play.

While this takes away the realism (btw civilians have been present in just about every war in history that came onto their grounds) this means they have more time to spend on other things.

[walker 0]

Hi all

I think it is far more likely that the reason the DReck specification keeps being downgraded is that the engine is fundamentally under powered. DReck is based on an old fashioned and not very capable engine after all.

I cannot think of any other reason CM: cut the entity count and reduced the number of multi-player spots and then removed civilians and Flyable Jets, decided not to have Wildlife and remove the Editor for the consoles, and make it external to the game rather than part of the game for PC's; than that DReck is just not physically able to cope with complex simulation.

Am I the only one who thinks CM bit off more than they could chew?

And if the code in DReck is so badly written that it cannot even come up to the specs of BIS's OFP1, a game that is ten years older, then it is clearly it is going to be seen as an inferior product, is it not?

Selling people a pig in a poke?

How can DReck be considered as anything other than trying to fool customers with a shoddy product wrapped up in a name, when so much is missing from what was in BIS's original OFP1?

Sadly walker

[SaBrE_UK 0]

I must say, you're rather sensationalist, Walker :D

[4 IN 1 0]

The RV engine used by BI are also very old fashion too if you ask me, it's the open end and mod ability that keeps it alive because you can almost change everything(if allowed) in it, but the basic engine itself is quite old fashion

[boomar. 10]

The reason why OFP: DR is gona totally own is displayed in this REALLY old ingame movie trailer thing.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6iu6p_operation-flashpoint-2-in-game_videogames

If you have not seen it, i suggest you do. Its really immersive and everytime i watch it hypes me up again haha.

[opteryx 1562]

The reason why OFP: DR is gona totally own is displayed in this REALLY old ingame movie trailer thing.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6iu6p_operation-flashpoint-2-in-game_videogames

If you have not seen it, i suggest you do. Its really immersive and everytime i watch it hypes me up again haha.

It looks like shit to be honest.

[Sennacherib 0]

I would like to be able to create shit like this.:p

[boomar. 10]

It looks like shit to be honest.

Seriously, thats probably one of the best things i've seen in over 20 years of gaming. Looks like so much fun. I guess everyone has different tastes. But yeah that looks really immersive and looks like your really in a massive battle.

Atleast we agree over on the OFP2 forums thats its better than any Arma2 footage, even though it came out last august.

*runs back to the people who agree* hehe

[nodunit 397]

Of course you agree, both boards (and you say you came from the ofp2 board) virtually dislike the others awaited product to a degree, each having its extremists and neutralmen.

But in a way you seem to be trying to start a flamewar...

Edited April 29, 2009 by NodUnit

[boomar. 10]

Of course you agree, both boards (and you say you came from the ofp2 board) virtually dislike the others awaited product to a degree, each having its extremists and neutralmen.

But in a way you seem to be trying to start a flamewar...

I do like fire...

[Deadfast 43]

The month old video they let out was sooo unfinished it's really hard for me to believe they could release a finished game this soon...

[boomar. 10]

The month old video they let out was sooo unfinished it's really hard for me to believe they could release a finished game this soon...

Just look at the video i posted a few posts up, Thats from August 2008. I know that one they recently kinda released look bad, cos it was bad. Looks nothing like the august trailer or some bits in the EGO tech trailer.

[Maddmatt 1]

Seriously, thats probably one of the best things i've seen in over 20 years of gaming. Looks like so much fun. I guess everyone has different tastes. But yeah that looks really immersive and looks like your really in a massive battle.

Atleast we agree over on the OFP2 forums thats its better than any Arma2 footage, even though it came out last august.

*runs back to the people who agree* hehe

It looks ok, but not that special. The pre-placed smoke effects are overdone, and seem to be coming from nothing. I see a few squads, heavy fog and not much else.

Not much you can judge in that old video.

You could re-create something close to it in ArmA :p

Atleast we agree over on the OFP2 forums thats its better than any Arma2 footage, even though it came out last august.

You have to be kidding me... :j:

Edited April 29, 2009 by Maddmatt

[Deathstruck 375]

WTF, how can that video "own" ? I would play Call of Duty 1 instead of this hyper-buffer run'n'gun so-called-OFP >_<

[Zipper5 74]

Seriously, boomar., did you even play OFP?

DR looks nothing like OFP. It looks like Battlefield 2! Seriously! The animations are almost identical, it's scary. And the UI is very similar. If you didn't know the significance behind the "Operation Flashpoint" title, then you would probably write off DR as your every-day generic shooter if you saw those videos and screenshots.

How it plays, however, is a different subject. One that we will only find out as time progresses.