FAFw - Forces Armées Françaises Workshop

[clawhammer 10]

The real problem that FAFw rise (if i have understood) is the fact that they have created models from scratch. These models belong to BI (cause of licence, use of 02) and BI/Vbs can sell it for military purposes without giving anything to the original creator (BI plz tell me if they r wrong).

And this would be the same for all modders team, who create free stuffs which can be used by VBS to make money by selling to Armies without retributing to original creators.

I m not accusing BI/VBS, i m just telling what i ve understood from the FAFw team . Plz light me up if i m wrong. I hope i didn t transform the speech from FAfw, if it s the case sry.

Look @ the post from BI and BIA Member a few sites ago, there you will find their statement.

[Nikoteen 24]

This is a bad week for the french community: now, the biggest french forum (ArmA-Fr.net) is closing his doors.

This story has really killed some of us :(

In french for the french :

La "communauté française" de Arma2 ne va pas disparaitre de sitôt. Je joue avec des amis depuis presque 10 ans, avec où sans addons francais.

Les auteurs de ce mod, qui sont visiblement les même que les admins de Arma-FR ont décidés de partir ? ok je respecte ce choix.

Mais ne venez pas faire porter le discrédit sur l'ensemble de la communauté et faire passer les francais pour des égocentriques qui ne peuvent se passer de leur armée en modèle.

Moi je le peux très bien.

[Simon C 0]

And in English please? Just because you're writing to the French community, doesn't make you exempt from Forum Rule 13 - Please write in English. Having French plus an English translation is usually accepted.

[STALKERGB 6]

It says something like.

The "French community" of ARMA2 will not disappear anytime soon. I played with friends for almost 10 years, with or without French addons.

The authors of this mod, who are evidently the same as the admins of Arma-FR have decided to leave? Ok I respect that choice.

But do not bring discredit on the whole community and the French for egocentrics who can not do without their army model.

Me I can very well.

Edited January 15, 2010 by STALKERGB

[streets 10]

So much attention whoring and pointing fingers, give it a rest. They decided not to release then so be it.

[Nikoteen 24]

It says something like.

It's what I said.

[STALKERGB 6]

It's what I said.

I was just saying that my translation probably wasnt very good. Nothing else mate.

[Nikoteen 24]

I was just saying that my translation probably wasnt very good. Nothing else mate.

and I was just saying your translation was excellent :)

[STALKERGB 6]

and I was just saying your translation was excellent :)

Oh ok :) my french is pretty rusty so glad its a decent translation :)

[whisper 0]

Yes, their work was possibly stolen, but blaming everyone under the sun and calling people who don't make addons idiots as they did is not the way to go about terminating a project.

They never blamed everyone, just certain people

[Renaud 0]

**EDIT** Send by PM.

[karax 0]

Pleasure to play or create has been stolen for everyone & especialy for the french gamers. It's really sad news.

Anyway, even if FAFw never release some addons for ArmaII, OFrP had given us the most beautiful addons never made for french army lovers for THE game "OFP". And that's, it's really great !

Edited January 15, 2010 by karax

[rksl-rock 1300]

The real problem that FAFw rise (if i have understood) is the fact that they have created models from scratch. These models belong to BI (cause of licence, use of 02) and BI/Vbs can sell it for military purposes without giving anything to the original creator (BI plz tell me if they r wrong).

That is a bullshit myth that's been floating around since the dawn of OFP. There are certain people that keep spreading this crap as justification of what they are doing. stealing and modifying content saying "well i gave them a credit just like i did BIS".

BIS stated the truth here: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=44973

As for why FAFw left (this is only my interpretation):

1. Someone stole parts of their stuff. It turned up un-credited in Sarmat's addons like so many others has. Whether Sarmat knew it was "stolen" is up for debate but that's for another topic
   
2. Someone from within their team used their work to promote himself and gain a job without actually asking the others first. (its insulting to find that your work is being used without your consent even when it free. Its even worse to find someone else profiting from it)
   
3. They are pissed to find out that their models are being used "without permission" by BIA. (I seriously doubt that BIA knowingly "stole" anything. I suspect if anything has gone wrong its because someone misrepresented themselves to BIA).
   
4. They are Sceptical about BI's intent with ArmA community made addons. The VBS2 advertising is controversial because it says you can use free ArmA community made content. A number of people have left the community in protest over this saying they don't want their addons exploited like this. EG Opteryx
   

I have a lot of sympathy for the FAFw guys. I can see why they are so frustrated. It feels like they've been attacked from all sides. And people here are still attacking them. Its not fair. I would probably do the same. And I know others would too.

No one here has the right to demand addons. Its sad that FAFw wont release anything, I feel just as deprived as anyone but I understand how they feel. I loved the OFP and ArmA OPFrP addons. I used them a lot. But as Vilas and others have said, it takes 100's if not 1000s of hours to make good addons and to have people steal from you and then attack you is soul destroying. It takes away all your motivation, makes all your efforts feel worthless and I for one can completely understand why SoldierIsNotHistory has quit. I was in the exact same position not so long ago.

Now instead of constantly criticising FAFw for quitting how about you show them support and maybe you can encourage them to start again.

Edited January 15, 2010 by RKSL-Rock

[Renaud 0]

In the french forum I have read a documentation about a "contract" between BIA and a french firm.

Which includes termes like :

"French VBS2 vehicle and unit models made for Eurosatory (...)".

DATE : 28/04/2009

When I read Snypir : "I can assure you all that BIA did not ‘steal’ any French add-ons. BIA received permission to exhibit certain French content at the French trade show Eurosatory 08 and during Phoenix 2008 experimentation, and following these two events we destroyed all copies of the French content. Even today, VBS2 does not include any French content."

... I would like to believe him.

But, if I see the dates : Eurosatory 2008, Phoenix 2008.... and AFTER : 28/04/2009... with addons that (if I'm not so stupid) were destroyed, I have some difficulties to understand some things.

I'm so stupid I would be happy to understand.

[evion 10]

@Rock,

well said and stuff to think on.

Hmmmm, maybe BIS should open their eyes here (hello Maruk ? ;) ) and think about alternatives to support the creators in copyright/using issue. As we know, the community is BIS capital, so you must pay attention to it.

Beside that, as you said, the fact that the community moral become more and more less. I know its a problem since the beginning days of OFP, but the last time shows more and more that the community creators didn't get the attention the should get for their invested time and especially the respect of their work. What can we or shall we do ?

Its shame but as under the given points by Rock, its an understandable step to decide not to work further for us, the community (BIS).

[1in1class 0]

That is a bullshit myth that's been floating around since the dawn of OFP. There are certain people that keep spreading this crap as justification of what they are doing. stealing and modifying content saying "well i gave them a credit just like i did BIS".

BIS stated the truth here: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=44973

As for why FAFw left (this is only my interpretation):

1. Someone stole parts of their stuff. It turned up un-credited in Sarmat's addons like so many others has. Whether Sarmat knew it was "stolen" is up for debate but that's for another topic
   
2. Someone from within their team used their work to promote himself and gain a job without actually asking the others first. (its insulting to find that your work is being used without your consent even when it free. Its even worse to find someone else profiting from it)
   
3. They are pissed to find out that their models are being used "without permission" by BIA. (I seriously doubt that BIA knowingly "stole" anything. I suspect if anything has gone wrong its because someone misrepresented themselves to BIA).
   
4. They are Sceptical about BI's intent with ArmA community made addons. The VBS2 advertising is controversial because it says you can use free ArmA community made content. A number of people have left the community in protest over this saying they don't want their addons exploited like this. EG Opteryx
   

I have a lot of sympathy for the FAFw guys. I can see why they are so frustrated. It feels like they've been attacked from all sides. And people here are still attacking them. Its not fair. I would probably do the same. And I know others would too.

No one here has the right to demand addons. Its sad that FAFw wont release anything, I feel just as deprived as anyone but I understand how they feel. I loved the OFP and ArmA OPFrP addons. I used them a lot. But as Vilas and others have said, it takes 100's if not 1000s of hours to make good addons and to have people steal from you and then attack you is soul destroying. It takes away all your motivation, makes all your efforts feel worthless and I for one can completely understand why SoldierIsNotHistory has quit. I was in the exact same position not so long ago.

Now instead of constantly criticising FAFw for quitting how about you show them support and maybe you can encourage them to start again.

As in many things stuff get's into some one's hands. In this case it was with out the knowledge of the owner. To say BI is at fault is so far off, you have the freedom and the rights to do and make addons at your time! If you dont won't to give it up to public it's your right, but saying all peoples of BI and all is at fault well.... its not! As for the French team that was at hand with this mod, they were at it with each other anyway! Blame game is the same game. So its the way you go about it that chang's the way of the out come of it. In this case they just said "F it." What part dont you get that its your work and your responsibility. BI can only do so much, what you would you like them not to give out the tools! Bizzz off on this! This is going to far just stop with the blame game.

Edited January 15, 2010 by 1in1class
need

[rksl-rock 1300]

As in many things stuff get's into some one's hands. In this case it was with out the knowledge of the owner. To say BI is at fault is so far off, you have the freedom and the rights to do and make addons at your time! If you dont won't to give it up to public it's your right, but saying all peoples of BI and all is at fault well.... its not! As for the French team that was at hand with this mod, they were at it with each other anyway! Blame game is the same game. So its the way you go about it that chang's the way of the out come of it. In this case they just said "F it." What part dont you get that its your work and your responsibility. BI can only do so much, what you would you like them not to give out the tools! Bizzz off on this! This is going to far just stop with the blame game.

Maybe its their view. Maybe FAFw didn't have all the facts when they posted and perhaps they should have gone about it in a different way.

But repeatedly attacking them isnt going to help anyone is it.

[1in1class 0]

Yes in all words its there view and there rights. They called it quits and thats there way of dealing with it. No attack on there part that i see, but i do see alot saying its not there fault it's BI and other people. Its nobodys but there own. Actions were taken about this. Its not like the mod was took and people are playing it now. This game serise of OFP has been out for an long time now, so has this community. I see it going for many more years and i would like to see it too. It's the addon maker's call to give it out and there responsibility to there addon, and how it goes about to the people. We can move on from this. Im happy with any work that is to come to the OFP/ArmA serise.

[rksl-rock 1300]

Yes in all words its there view and there rights. They called it quits and thats there way of dealing with it. No attack on there part that i see, but i do see alot saying its not there fault it's BI and other people. Its nobodys but there own.

I take it you've never spent any serious amount of time making addons have you.

You seem to be saying its thier own fault people have stolen thier work. You seem to want to blame them for someone exploiting thier good will to gain profit.

Did BIS steal anything? No i dont think they did. Did someone take FAFw's work and try to exploit it for profit by misrepresenting themselves to BIA? I dont know, but that what it looks like they are saying happened.

So is it FAFw's fault? No it isnt. Personally I would have contacted BIS before posting anything but they didn't. We cant change that now.

Actions were taken about this. Its not like the mod was took and people are playing it now. This game serise of OFP has been out for an long time now, so has this community. I see it going for many more years and i would like to see it too. It's the addon maker's call to give it out and there responsibility to there addon, and how it goes about to the people. We can move on from this. Im happy with any work that is to come to the OFP/ArmA serise.

Yes the moderators removed Sarmat download links when they found they were 'illegal'. But really that shouldn't have been necessary. Sarmat should have gotten permission first. Just as the community rules clearly state.

It is the addon makers call to release content. But they shouldn't have to fight tooth and nail to protect it. People should respect their property. How would you feel if people just stole your possessions while you weren't looking? I'm sick of people stealing our work, if it continues you wont have many high quality addons to support the community.

People in this community need to learn respect. The attitude is changing but some people are still getting support for addons they didn't make themselves. That is wrong.

[Guest]

Following the explanations of renaud...

As Managing Director of BIA, and the person ultimately responsible for VBS2, I can assure you all that BIA did not ‘steal’ any French add-ons. BIA received permission to exhibit certain French content at the French trade show Eurosatory 08 and during Phoenix 2008 experimentation, and following these two events we destroyed all copies of the French content. Even today, VBS2 does not include any French content.

(click on pictures for bigger res)

Above a picture from the beginning of a video shown at the exercise “Phoenix 2008†(october 2008); it

clearly shows the use of soldiers and a rifle FA-MAS from lodu (released under ArmA Armed Assault).

Addons lent by lodu had a time limitation : until february 2009.

Quote Peter Morrion (boss of BIA=snYpir) :

"and following these two events we destroyed all copies of the French content"

So how could we explain this document below dated march 28th 2009?

It's a copy of a document from BIA, in which appears a draft agreement between the

DGA (Direction Générale de l'Armement, French government) and BIA to buy french

contents.

French contents from those who had been employed at Eurosatory 2008 (work from lodu), august 2008.

All under the label “French VBS2 vehicle and unitâ€.

Are you still wondering why FAFw is down ?

[Simon C 0]

Does 'LODU' have any proof that these are his unit/vehicles? So far no proof has been given that he is indeed the creator of these models.

[Daniel 0]

Hell, even I can tell that's blatantly FrenchPoint.

[WhiteMoon 10]

So far no proof

It's not a court, and even in the case it would be necessary it will never be, because we're here talking about unpaid work, made by players with passion.

After working hard, it looks like their work could be use for a commercial purpose, without any credit, without giving anything in return.

Perhaps they're wrong, but if they're right, any volunteer would be scared by this, espacially if it's "a surprise". I don't think it's just paranoia cause after completing a full mod, the staff would do anything they can to distribute it and enjoy it. You don't take the decision of burying your work just with light suspicions...

BIS can discuss their terms of agreement, quoting and explaining in which way communities' work stays communities' property.

BIS can also make some deals with communities if they want to use the mods in commercial purpose, like asking permission first, giving credits, and why not providing some servers, extra tools, new content...

All I see is a company annoucing a stand alone expansion pack as the initial game still suffers many common bugs bothering players and is still suffering from some gameplay problems/limitations. I would have preferred buying this game more expensive to enjoy a better quality (and I'm not a rich guy).

ArmA II became my main game but I'm not sure I will hang on for long when I see how all this stuff goes... perhaps it's time to get better interests, with people who aslo shares, even better if IRL...

---------- Post added at 03:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 AM ----------

Reading a little more I can't resist to gather 2 quotes :

As Managing Director of BIA, and the person ultimately responsible for VBS2, I can assure you all that BIA did not ‘steal’ any French add-ons. BIA received permission to exhibit certain French content at the French trade show Eurosatory 08 and during Phoenix 2008 experimentation, and following these two events we destroyed all copies of the French content. Even today, VBS2 does not include any French content.

Subsequent to the raised issue of community content being used without permission in “DARWARS Ambush!â€, representatives of Bohemia Interactive recently met with BBN (developers of “DARWARS Ambush!â€) to discuss the issue. BBN informed us that they have removed all community created content that had been used without permission. BBN provided a demonstration of “DARWARS Ambush!†and no unauthorised community content was apparent.

snYpir also wrote :

SoldierIsNotHistory, on behalf of the community I am sorry that you have decided to cease your development, but please do not inaccurately, and publically, blame BIA. If you have concerns I urge you to take them up with me privately, via PM.

Even if it looks like reassuring, the two precedent quotes shows the community work in not so protected and respected, but if ever you catch your work being commercialy used somewhere, be sure it's already deleted...

It's just my point of view.

I understand why the french staff don't feel confident.

[1in1class 0]

@RKSL-Rock

I respect all work that goes into the mods and addons, as i can not say that for all people. I love the work all have done for the community as your work too. By me saying "fault" im saying its there fault that they would like to stop there work. All know about how they should go about with there work, as for the modle that was used it was took off. Thats it. It was the french team to say that they were going to quit. By saying its BI fault well.. its not. Actions where taken and the other side did take out that modle.

Edited January 16, 2010 by 1in1class
need

[Lonestar 11]

But the SARMAT situation was just the straw that broke the camel's back, Nico explained a few posts above the true reason of their withdrawal. Fafw team stopped developing the mod because they realized they were going to be exploited anyway once released.

Do you really think these guies, among the best modders out there regarding the professional quality of their work, would have given up their passion only because of SARMAT?