Bayonet/knife poll

[Baff1 0]

In this weeks dispatches from the front line.

"British officer wins two gallantry awards for fending off Taliban attack with bayonet"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/6178044/British-officer-wins-two-gallantry-awards-for-fending-off-Taliban-attack-with-bayonet.html

Lieutenant James Adamson was awarded the Military Cross after killing two insurgents during close quarter combat in Helmand's notorious "Green Zone".

The 24-year-old officer, a member of the 5th battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, revealed that he shouted "have some of this" before shooting dead a gunman who had just emerged from a maize field.

Seconds later and out of ammunition, the lieutenant leapt over a river bank and killed a second insurgent machine-gunner with a single thrust of his bayonet in the man's chest.

The officer was one of 145 members of the armed services who last week received awards in the latest Operational Honours list.

In a graphic description of the intense fighting in Helmand, the officer told of the moment killed the second fighter. He said: "It was a split second decision.

"I either wasted vital seconds changing the magazine on my rifle or went over the top and did it more quickly with the bayonet.

"I took the second option. I jumped up over the bank of the river. He was just over the other side, almost touching distance.

"We caught each other's eye as I went towards him but by then, for him, it was too late. There was no inner monologue going on in my head I was just reacting in the way that I was trained.

"He was alive when it went in – he wasn't alive when it came out – it was that simple."

Recalling his feelings in the moments afterwards Lt Adamson, said: "He was young, with dark hair. He only had kind of whispy hair on his chin, not a proper beard, so he wasn't that old, maybe a teenager.

"Afterwards, when he was dead, I picked up his PKM (Russian-made belt-fed machine gun) machine gun and slung it over my back.

"We then had to wait for more of my men to join us. We thought there could be more Taliban about and we were just watching our arcs of fire, waiting for more to come out of a big field of maize which came right up to the river we had been wading through.

"One of my men, Corporal Billy Carnegie, reached us, looked at the two dead Taliban on the ground and then saw the blood on my bayonet and said "boss what the **** have you been doing?"

The firefight, in July 2008, began during the middle an operation to push the Taliban out of an area close to the town of Musa Qala in northern Helmand.

Lt Adamson's platoon of 25-men, which was leading the assault, had just halted their advance when they were attacked.

Lt Adamson, who is single and comes from the Isle of Man, was moving between two eight man sections when a group of Taliban fighters attempted a flanking attack.

He continued: "The Taliban kept on probing us – sending in fighters to attack, first in twos then in fours.

"There was a gap between the two sections and the Taliban realised this and were sending in men to get between the two groups so they could split us up and isolate us.

"Myself and Corporal Fraser 'Hammy' Hamilton were wading nipple deep down a river which connected the two positions. Hammy was ahead when the Taliban fighter with the PKM (Russian machine gun) appeared from a maize field.

"There was an exchange of fire and 'Hammy' fired off his ammunition and then the weight of fire coming from the Taliban forced him under the water.

"The machine-gunner had also gone to ground but was still firing in our direction periodically. I had just caught up when 'Hammy' came up out of the water like a monster of the deep.

"Then another Taliban man came through the maize carrying an AK47. He was only three to four metres away.

"I immediately shot him with a burst from my rifle which was already set on automatic. He went down straight away and I knew I had hit him.

"Hammy said I shouted: 'have some of this' as I shot him but I can't remember that. I fired another burst at the PKM gunner and then that was me out of ammunition as well.

"That was when I decided to use the bayonet on him. It was a case of one second to bayonet him or two seconds to put on a fresh magazine.

"Nothing was really going through my mind but briefly I did think 'if this works out the boys will love it' – as in the rest of the platoon that I commanded.

"The undergrowth is so dense in the 'Green zone' that I often ordered bayonets fixed because you knew the distances between you and the Taliban could be very short. It is also good for morale."

His Military Cross citation read: "Adamson's supreme physical courage, combined with the calm leadership he continued to display after a very close encounter with the Taliban, were of the very highest order.

"His actions also neutralised an enemy flanking attack which could have resulted in casualties for his platoon."

Two weeks earlier Lt Adamson had won a Mention in Dispatches (MID) by leading his men in an ambush against the Taliban in the same area.

It is understood that the young lieutenant is the first member of the armed forces to receive two awards for gallantry during the same operational tour.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Baff1

[NoRailgunner 0]

You forgot to highlight this:

'if this works out the boys will love it'

For sure boys love it. ;)

Overall its a question of proper coding + animations and how good the AI is able to use bayonets. I dont think that BIS will do this bayonet-feature for next patch or for the US Army in OA. Of course they could work on some CQB features, beside improving other Arma2 issues and bugs.

[Prydain 1]

I am awesome.

Bayonets are needed, if you think otherwise its because you are a screaming faggot. I still have not seen a reason to not include bayonets.

[no use for a name 0]

I am awesome.

Bayonets are needed, if you think otherwise its because you are a screaming faggot. I still have not seen a reason to not include bayonets.

no...you're not awesome you're a fucking douche. I still have not seen one good reason for including bayonets. go play BF2 if you want a fucking knife.

Edited September 18, 2009 by No Use For A Name

[Prydain 1]

go play BF2 if you want a fucking knife.

Exactly the mindset that doesn't recognise the difference between useful bayonets and and childish BF2 knifes. If you want reasons for bayonets just read the many pages where their usefulness is explained while I look for a reason other than "go play BF2" for bayonets to not to be included one day.

[PuFu 4591]

Exactly the mindset that doesn't recognise the difference between useful bayonets and and childish BF2 knifes. If you want reasons for bayonets just read the many pages where their usefulness is explained while I look for a reason other than "go play BF2" for bayonets to not to be included one day.

Don't get the point of this...BIS will not include them that is for sure.

But if you really want them, go ahead and make your own addon.

You only need to:

* model the bayonets on the existing weapons (attachTo command doesn't work for weapons, but you could always try using setPos localy for each client if you don't want to do/edit models)

* redo the configs, and create some new ones (for animations)

* make some animations for the action

* pack it all

* release it.

[no use for a name 0]

Exactly the mindset that doesn't recognise the difference between useful bayonets and and childish BF2 knifes. If you want reasons for bayonets just read the many pages where their usefulness is explained while I look for a reason other than "go play BF2" for bayonets to not to be included one day.

my mindset is that I've NEVER once come within bayonet range in the game; even in PvP. The closest I've gotten to an AI enemy was about 20m, and in MP it's usually a lot further.

And I also don't like to be called a "screaming fagot" because I don't think they're "needed" (news flash-just because YOU think something is important doesn't mean it is)...chose your words more wisely next time instead of resorting to childish name-calling

Like pufu said, learn to mod if you think they're so fucking essential

Edited September 19, 2009 by No Use For A Name

[Binkowski 25]

Bayonet charges with British 3PARA units? Bad ass. I'd love to see it. I think it would open up a lot of possibilities and opportunities.

[Prydain 1]

my mindset is that I've NEVER once come within bayonet range in the game; even in PvP. The closest I've gotten to an AI enemy was about 20m, and in MP it's usually a lot further.

(news flash-just because YOU think something is important doesn't mean it is)

Awesome contradiction mate, just whack another post up if you find a reason for them not to be included in the "ULTIMATE MILITARY SIMULATOR".

@pufu. It is a suggestion, it doesn't mean anyone is screaming for them now. Obviously they are low priority because by the sounds of things most people sit no less 20m away from enemys instead of having varied situations where many times a bayonet would be useful -- Like, perhaps when manoeuvring and assaulting positions.

The only people who oppose the idea seem to be those who feel it would take up development time when it is just a suggestion. People who look at posts and only see the bait layed out for them but have no input seem to be against it too.

Binkowski has the attitude I wanted to see, just a general jovial bit of banter about commonly used weaponry.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Prydain

[nomdeplume 0]

The only people who oppose the idea seem to be those who feel it would take up development time when it is just a suggestion.

What is the point of making a suggestion and soliciting feedback on it if not to gauge the level of interest from the rest of the community? Or should every thread in the suggestions forum consist of nothing more than a bunch of people saying "yeah that'd be great" with no discussion about its merits with respect to the game, or in relation to other fixes/improvements we'd like to see?

The underlying concept of the "suggestions" forum is that it's an opportunity to help shape the future of the game. I don't think anyone is of the belief that BIS staff will read this forum and implement things or not implement them based entirely (or even largely) on the apparent level of support. Yet, there is no point participating in this forum if you believe the posts here will play absolutely no part in the future of the game.

I agree that bayonet charges would be "bad ass", but I can't help but follow that up with thoughts on the practicality of implementing it -- and I just don't see it as being very practical. Certainly the AI can't participate in such scenarios without a lot of effort, and the only people that would benefit from a gimmicky (i.e. not fully integrated) bayonet are the PvP and "super human player with special abilities vs cannon fodder AI" crowds; but that's a discussion that belongs in the Addons forum.

I also think that improved (or perhaps "more versatile" is more correct?) movement needs to be available prior to the introduction of melee combat. Most tales of bayonet use involve leaping over cover right into the enemy position, which makes sense because who's going to stand around waiting for enemy soldiers to run up to and around their cover and skewer them? But this kind of manouveur isn't exactly Arma 2's strength; in fact, it's barely present in the game at all. Most of the times that you're able to leap over cover and be amongst the enemy before they can react, it's due to collision detection or physics glitches, not deliberate game design.

[Jaenus 10]

Dammit!

Just 2 hours ago I had a situation where the game just started (warfare) and I was mid-town. I had my rifle and I ran out of bullets, a guy was RIGHT in front of me and I didn't have anything else (KNIFE/BAYONET) to kill him with ... so I died.

[Sydor 10]

Yes I want a knife in ArmA2...

there is nothing better than to quietly sneak up behind the sniper and spin him

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

I really don't understand the whole "I've never been less than 20m away from an enemy" mindset. If one walks round the corner and you find yourself face to face while you're taking a town, do you run away from him then shoot him?

Personally, the silent stabby stabby option is definately preferable here since then you don't alert his mates to your location.

Sydor - I agree with the sentiment contained in your sig but the quote is not accurate.

He actually said "I know not with what weapons Wold War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Since we've had World War III already and World War IV seems round the corner if not already underway, please contact me to buy your military grade sticks and stones. I will send them by mailorder.

[Blake 0]

I would support bayonet but knife is kind of problematic. Imagine it being just a hand making slashes or thrusts in & hovering front of you which would look stupid. Knife fight would have to have very "personal" contact. It could be hard to implement knife fight in a realistic manner without getting into arcadish hack'n'slash.

With bayonet on the other hand you could fight with one simple forward thrusting movement. The whole body should move forward and put you a bit off balance, not just hands & rifle moving back and forth.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Blake

[PeaceDoctor 10]

To me a simple "generic" knife slash movement would be good.

A good point in favor of the "knife slash" against the "bayonet" for me is that the knife "slash" is not linked to your main weapon. Thus making it more realistic than bayonets attached to all weapons. Although you can adapt almost any weapon to receive a knife as bayonet the militaries do not attach them on all weapons (for example: MP5SD6 bayonet?).

[Baff1 0]

I agree that bayonet charges would be "bad ass", but I can't help but follow that up with thoughts on the practicality of implementing it -- and I just don't see it as being very practical. Certainly the AI can't participate in such scenarios without a lot of effort, and the only people that would benefit from a gimmicky (i.e. not fully integrated) bayonet are the PvP and "super human player with special abilities vs cannon fodder AI" crowds; but that's a discussion that belongs in the Addons forum.

One of the lst things I care about is giving the AI a fair fight.

AI can see through undergrowth human players cannot.

Human players select guided missiles on tanks, AI player do not.

What is important in a game is making it fun.

The enjoyment of the AI participating is not relevant.

Like it or not all AI is cannon fodder vs a human. Should it ever not be, the game would cease to be fun.

As unrealistic as it is, players still expect to go out in any mission and get loads of kills.

I for one wouldn't care in the slightest if the AI never used bayonets, it's not them I want it for, it's me.

If they all did, if squads could be assigned to fix bayonets en masse, rather like everyone does at the start of each Red Orchestra game, it would indeed be highly atmospheric and worth it. One of those little game moments.

Lets face it it's not as if all soldiers in real life equip and use their bayonets either, only the combat elites.

And only then if they have a good officer.

All That said; if an AI can be written to shoot an enemy target if it see's it within 200 metres, it can be told to stab a target if it see's it within 3.

This is hardly the most challenging thing in the world to program. Changing the 200m integer for a 2 and the shoot sub-routine for a stab sub-routine. Recording a new animation.

Edited September 20, 2009 by Baff1

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Skipped most of the read (too much), but I voted no:

I can't recall a single time that I have been in AIs bayonet or knife range. In Arma2, all fights I've been in takes place at 200-400m, not 15-35m streetfighting like most urban fights of today.

I'd much rather have a working shovel which lets me prepare a firing position.

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

I'd much rather have a working shovel which lets me prepare a firing position.

Now that is also a good idea :)

[19Kilo30K4 10]

Bayonets in video games? Good idea. Bayonets in real life? In 3 years plus in Iraq, I have never found the need to fix a bayonet one time. I really don't know why Brits are so for them. I carry an M203 on my rifle these days (mostly for non lethal rounds like crowd dispersal) so I can no longer fix one anyway. I just have never really seen an advantage to getting close enough to your enemy where you could be locked in a hand to hand struggle for your weapon. Yeah, maybe I might be in the middle of a mag change, but my whole squad? Come on. If I did get that close, I have a pistol on my side to start blasting away with, but don't get me started on the CQB shortcomings of the M9. If you are close enough to touch the enemy, they are close enough to touch you. With the proliferation of suicide vests/belts, and grenades in Iraq I just don't get it. You Brits can blame it on the American gun culture if you want to, but I like living. If I try to maintain standoff, I can win with skill of arms and employ my team to maximum effect. If I close the distance other factors could hamper me (i.e. my squad can't shoot a guy if I'm in physical contact with him). I think it's a good idea in game, but don't tell me how useful they are in combat unless you yourself have actually engaged in a small unit action where you have stabbed someone. Leave the warfighting to the warfighters and.... well, I play games too, so nevermind :P

[okdante 0]

Not necesarilly bayonet or knife (but at least for mods (ww2,ww1,napoleon :D...), that would be great implementation with some proper movement studio animation), but a simple blow with a butt-end would be nice (like they've done it in AA3)

[PuFu 4591]

Not necesarilly bayonet or knife (but at least for mods (ww2,ww1,napoleon :D...), that would be great implementation with some proper movement studio animation), but a simple blow with a butt-end would be nice (like they've done it in AA3)

The animation is already done in the vanilla game (used in a campaign intro i think). Found it looking for something else, forgot to note it though :)

[oscar19681 0]

Well great news for us Knife/bayonet lovers. I tried the New SLX mod for arma 2 and it has a knife and you can slash with the knife and actually kill enemy soldiers with it. I tried it and its great! Cant believe why the dev,s didnt do it in the first place while a mod can implement it with ease and it looks great as well! Here check it out. Also the mod itself is great aswell

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=84968

[Prydain 1]

Bayonets in video games? Good idea. Bayonets in real life? In 3 years plus in Iraq, I have never found the need to fix a bayonet one time. I really don't know why Brits are so for them. I carry an M203 on my rifle these days (mostly for non lethal rounds like crowd dispersal) so I can no longer fix one anyway. I just have never really seen an advantage to getting close enough to your enemy where you could be locked in a hand to hand struggle for your weapon.

Cheers for your insight but remember, Iraq is a peace-keeping operation. I respect you immensely for what you do but the need for bayonets for you is, unsurprisingly, not going to be high. So your points, although noted, are rather moot when considering people play with conventional platoon operations in mind. [that of which I know little about]

You Brits can blame it on the American gun culture if you want to, but I like living.

I am sure nobody is making cultural distinctions, there was some reporting recently that American doctrine was being reviewed to involve the traditional British use of bayonets. I'll let you interpret this. Edited September 29, 2009 by Prydain

[Baff1 0]

If I try to maintain standoff, I can win with skill of arms and employ my team to maximum effect.

Bayonets are for those moments when you try but fail.

Those moments when the enemy is deciding how the battle will be fought just as much as you are.

It's called preparation.

If all goes according to you plan, you can still keep your enemy at distance with your bayonet attached. If your plan fails to survive first contact however...and one gets close... you still have an advantage.

Being well equiped and well trained simply increases the number of circumstances in which you will have a fighting advantage.

Flexibility is the key to survivability. If long range engagements is all you are willing to do, that weakness can be exploited by your enemies.

There are more ways than one to gain a tactical advantage. The more you know the more surviveable you become.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Baff1

[oscar19681 0]

You guys really should give the SLX mod a go untill there are bayonets. The cool thing is that the AI will use knifes as well when you tell them to drop all there weapons exept there knifes and start killing your own guys. I tested it with 6 usmc soldiers and they managed to wound me because i was killing everybody with the knife. The AI also seems to be reluctant to use the knife when they they have other weapons but they will do so when they have nothing else! Just like it should be in real life! The downside is however that only the usmc faction is equeped with knifes so you probably wont even see a opfor use a knife since they dont have one