AA units, and why we hate them.

[NeMeSiS 11]

@Paladin

Do you even know what "Ultimate" means? It doesn't mean that it has to have all the features you mentioned, it only needs to be better that anything similar on the market. Which it is... So until something better hits the stores, BI has the right to name their game the Ultimate Military Simulation.

What are you asking is a game the combines a tank sim, aircraft sim, acurate military tactics sim, plus a lot other things that were never developed for a game. Your dream game will worth at least 300+ dollars, a completly new engine and 5+ years of development. I'd say you get quite a lot for a 50$ game, not to mention all the features and improvements you get from the community for free.

Since 'better' is pretty subjective they can use it if they think it is. But others can also use it... :p

[bogdanm 0]

Since 'better' is pretty subjective they can use it if they think it is. But others can also use it... :p

Currently there are no "others". The only rivals to the title would be the other BI games... Similar games I can think of are the Battlefield series, Soldner and Joint Operations but these can hardly be considered simulators of any kind.

[wolfbite 8]

My main annoyance is the damage model for the twin engined aircraft. They can be shot in the tail and both engines will fail I would rather the damage model be upgraded for vehicles so we can have more specific damage area's. Because if you shoot out one engine ion the hind... the whole thing will not come crashing to the ground in front of you... Warning receivers would also be nice ... and flairs would be a good idea for use against Ir missile's for sure. And to be honest paladin this is deffinately the best milsim out there.... there is some balancing because some things are just impossible to implement in a game of this scale. There are many features we would all like to see aded but we simply dont have the computers to handle these thing.. and programmers dont have the time to implement it all. Otherwise go join the army and quit whining!

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Meh, why even start polls like these? Of course everyone is going to say yes to ANY kind of new feature... regardless of what it is.

[Rhammstein 10]

Because I think there needed to be one extra option, similar to the first, allowing you to feel that it's a certain level of realistic, but that it simply needs treatment.

I wouldnt know yet, I'm waiting on my electronic transfer to buy it, or should I buy retail? I was thinking Steam. But won't I have to wait forever for patches? I live in NYC, U.S. I buy Valve made games on Steam no question, but I'm not sure about non-Steam, thanks.

[Stonewall Jackson 0]

Hey fellas,

This is a problem i have seen brought up time and again in Arma 2, but it's never had its very own thread. It's not a bug or an issue, it's just a "feature".

Its those evil AA units! Be it a U.S Marine with a stinger, or a Russian Insurgent with a tripod, the AA units are simply Ridiculous. Firstly, for guided missiles why do aircraft have no warning's at all? You simply hear an explosion and your dead, simple as that.

In real life there would be all sorts of beeping and warnings and flares flying out the back of your chopper/plane. It's just a little frustrating in a game thats so realistic. It's as if your just not supposed to have air units, they are so unrealistically vulnerable.

The second issue, which most people don't seem to have mention'd, is the way in which AA units disable your aircraft. If you fire a guided missile, unless you are aiming ridiculously awful, or firing at an extremely fast moving aircraft, you will never miss. Not because the guidance system is too good, no not at all. Because if the missile comes withing 15 metres of your aircraft it just blows up, without even touching you.

Maybe this is realistic in some missiles, i am no expert on the matter. But i have seen alot of real life videos/stories where the AA missile has missed its target by mere inches, and not exploded. I'm sure you've heard many stories where a helicopter has quicly spun round to dodge a missile, or where a fighter jet has out maneuvered one by using good flying skills.

The matter of the fact is, in Arma 2, if someone fires an AA missile at you, it will 99% never miss, even if flies straight past you. It will simply explode when its within a certain radius of the vehicle.

I bring these issues up because i wan't to see what other people think of this. Is it infact realistic and i am wrong? Or do i have a point? If i do have a point, is anyone from BIS reading this who could adress the problem?

Aircraft gameplay would improve ten-fold if a realistic warning/flare/missile collision system was implemented, imo.

I'm just a bit fed up of getting killed every single time by a single AA missile.

Regards,

Rich.

A .......+1 and ........I agree 100%!!!!!!!!!!!

Flares and Chaff plus an early warning.

Some Mods had it as early as Flashpoint.

[-Paladin- 10]

@ Paladin.

Not as bad as you make it to be, and if you'd be honest to yourself, the franchise has never been arcade.

Why is my FULL combat equip soldier with m 240 stage 3/4 Combat west with battelboots ABEL TO SWIMM?!?!

Why is the 1.90 tall guy full combat loudet with javelin fitting in the T-72?

Why my A-10 dont have a DASS(or what ever) no flears?

Why I cant Cary two tubes AT-4 and WHY I AM ABEL to relode a AT4?

Why I cant slide the aimer on my AK-74/M-16 A2 and adjust the ranges?

Why a T-72 have Gyrostabilced MainGun and is Abel to shoot like a M1A1 on the move?

Why is my M1A1 every time catastrophic exploding? and killing me when i am hit form behind in the turret?

Why are the marines that have a different structure that the Russians/NAPA/CDF all moving the same in towns, the same in the woods?

Why are the marines dont moving in fire teams like they should?

Its one big ARCADE game when not even worse, and i am honest.

Read that above its in ARMA2 inside and many MANY other things that sux and its not arcade?!

Prove it otherwise

...It`s still the best military combined arms tactical shooter out there, because it's the only one of it's kind atm....

No its not

OFP 1.96 with SLX and all other mods is much better, this is the minimum that should be in arma 2 for INF/TANKS/AIR

this above is much more advance then arma

armoured fist 2/3 is more real than arma (Tank combat against Inf and air threads even)

OFP:DR will have marine real-life organisation structure in game making it more real than ARMA, what makes you feel "ah i am know in a marine platoon"

while you are in ARMA 2 LOL marine/CDF/napa/ruski all the same crap

cargo will effect you while in ARMA, yea in ARMA you swim with 60 kilo gear like a fish and you have magic pockets

no magic healing to 100%

I bet they have flears, in a game

and this is calling itself a Milisim?

LOL a game will be more reale than a milisim?

And only because their are no in your opinion out their its

A) Not a excuse for doing nothing and expecting mony for that LMAO 150 cars that all feel like wartburg(no changes since OFP)

B) Not holding promises see ARMA 1 and cheating on the com(thats one of the worst point and nobody says enytink about that?)

C) See my pees story, when their is standing milisim on the cover their has to be a milisim inside, end of the story. if dont like pees take fuel "Pb not diesel" move "action not a love story" vacation "Florida not Siberia"

And why shod the com do something for Bohemia/ARMA?

If they do something, Bohemia has made it possible to steal the ideas and work and implement it in VBS/series, while the com gets what?Bugs?lie´s? and the com shod do what? reward BH so they can do it again? they say again "we are so sorry, ARMA 2 shod never been relased(<--familiar?):butbut: next time fellas:cool:"

@wolfbite

I hade my time in the army and I like it.

what featshers are not implemtibal in ARMA?

A physics that dont let tanks fly why they have drive over a rock?

not swimming soldiers in full gear, imposibel for 2009 med-PC to render it?

No magic all seeing radar?

sliders on AK/M-16 for range adjustment, blowing CPU/GPU in pieces?

no Hitpointmodel for all things? aka shooting with 9mm on a tank and not dmg it?

making it not posibel for a model that showing a soilder who is 1.90 tall fit in a T-72???!!??!

OMG i can see the dev rioting thru the bilding and buring stuff olololol

lol/ ROFL!!!!!!! LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i dont know what you guys want for 50 bucks

but making ARMA more like a sim and les "ET the game" like woudent hurt nobody

maybe you are all wanting VBS for free or think that they have to build every thing 1 to 1 from every nail and bordcomputer with the same NASA/USAF software so it works.

but my question is why ARMA is so, nah and not showing the basic stuff movement/equip and the handling of it/different handling and not like every thing the same stuff.that is OFP style not worth 2009.

LOL really

@BogdanM

What are you asking is a game the combines a tank sim, aircraft sim, acurate military tactics sim, plus a lot other things that were never developed for a game.

Thats what ARMA is or horribly try to be.Thats why PPL buy it.They think its a tank/Air/INF sim. other wise why shod buy some one this?

and what stuff?

thats what OFP/ARMA engine provides? right or not?

camon thats not serious what your where writing about my comment or?

this 300$?

its not arcade?

and even defending this "ultimate mili sim"?

with the one and only argue "they can piss your leg because their is nobody else who do it?"

[TheHarvesteR 11]

I think a missile warning system would be welcome on a few select aircraft, sich as the SU-34, F-35 or Cobra, and countermeasures really should be on top of the list of feature requests... currently, aside from preventing a launch, there is really little one can do to avoid being hit by AA... I'd like to think I have some hope of escaping the missiles, however remote...

about the AA itself, I think it's fairly well implemented... the previous posters said it right... AA is meant to deny airspace, and it does... so it works. It's quite fun to coordinate anti AA missions to allow the aircraft to provide air cover when clearing a city in MP... and without AA, it would indeed turn quickly into BF :p

Cheers

Edited August 13, 2009 by TheHarvesteR

[bogdanm 0]

@BogdanM

Thats what ARMA is or horribly try to be.Thats why PPL buy it.They think its a tank/Air/INF sim. other wise why shod buy some one this?

and what stuff?

thats what OFP/ARMA engine provides? right or not?

camon thats not serious what your where writing about my comment or?

this 300$?

its not arcade?

and even defending this "ultimate mili sim"?

with the one and only argue "they can piss your leg because their is nobody else who do it?"

I thought you understood my point but it seems you need clarification. You didn’t buy an all-around sim for land, air, sea vehicles. You bought a tactical shooter where you are a squad leader with AIs under command so you can simulate real life army tactics. That's the main feature of the game, it doesn't say the vehicles are simulated accurate.

(Tanks)Steel Beasts 2 PE 125.00 US$

(Helicopters)Black Shark $39.99

(Fighter planes)Lock On Modern Air Combat 10-20$

(Car/Racing) GTR 2 $49.99

(Infantry sim+AI ) ARMA2 49.99$ (or perhaps you find something better)

= ~280$ and I’m still lacking an accurate wheater sim, with mud and wheater that affects your gear.

I can safely assume that another 20$ will be for making everything compatible, so here is the 300$ sim you wanted.

And why you compare ARMA2 with OFP+Mods since I quote you "WE dont payd Bohemia...B) FOR A COMUNITY MOD PLATFORM" so it seems you don't want a mod platform. Compare ARMA2 with vanilla OFP and you will see real improvement.

I can only say that you fooled yourself buying a game how you wished to be, not how it really is... Next time try the demo first. ;)

[b00ce 160]

A lock on warning system would be nice, so we know when we're being painted by radar/ Ir tracking systems, you know the ones missiles and the like use. Most modern aircraft have them.

[TangoRomeo 10]

@ Paladin.

I think the common notion is that ArmA is no Simulation; DCS Black Shark is .. Steel Beasts is. We could extend your lists over a couple of pages. But that's not helpful. If you have to compare an "out of the box" ArmA you´ll have to put it against similar products on the market. I find this is where the series is unique in it's kind. The game that ArmA 2 currently is, will eventually turn into something more serious and sim-like, just as you described.

As for DR - I remember ArmA`s marketing and PR getting started, the enthusiasm across the board, and how it ended. I´m rather cautious about making any judgement on the DR pieces being thrown at us. It may turn out to be one of the best tactical shooters in a long time, and platform for further modding ventures, it may as likely fail the standards of this community. :(

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Ehm, don't think I would like much of this hardcoded into certain vehicles, as a variety of configurations are available in real life. Some doesn't have flares or early warning systems, others do... The 'systems' are already there; addEventHandler "IncomingMissile" for detection, and particles for flares. Missile handling might also be intercepted (go for flares) as mando did in Arma1.

If AA soldiers are that much of a problem, isn't that also the mission designers job to get it right? Or the units on the ground making sure the area is secure for flight? Or the commander making sure a nice sequence of events are taking place to ensure the safety of units? Oh, I guess that makes for boring gameplay and waiting. Patience is not seen much of at the typical public games.

No sane pilot (at least chopper pilot) would fly into an area known to host lots of AA.

[galzohar 31]

AA soldiers being a problem is a strong combination of the "ultralight launchers" problem and mission design, it's not just a mission design issue. Heck for PvP do you really want helicopters and airplanes ruling the sky killing everyone on the ground giving them no chance to fight back? Do you want AA restricted so that when the 1-2 AA guy/s is/are dead or is/are nub your whole team will get dominated again by air? Restricting it (at least in PvP) doesn't make a lot of sense (unless done with extreme care for balance), but making it have the proper weight costs (which should be high) is. Even in coop, if someone is sending me to fight against helicopters, he'd better let me have the proper equipment to handle them, or else let me stay home and send in the air force or something, unless you're making a "theme" mission in which case it'll take some very careful balancing to make it possible and interesting...

I like how so many threads result with a "this problem would've been so much less of a problem if proper weight was implemented". Maybe it should be a hint to BIS?

[spooky lynx 73]

Because most aircraft are in fact NOT equipped with MAWS systems to warn them of impending doom. You actually have to LOOK for the launch.

Practically all Blackhwaks, Mi-8 and Mi-24 are equipped with IR-jamming systems and RWR/IRWR systems, so crew can be warned about missile launch.

Lastly, it is physically impossible for a helicopter to outmaneuver an air to air missile or a SAM. It may manage to defeat the guidance system and then get out of the missile's way, but actually outmaneuver a guiding AAM/SAM? No.

It's possible. Helicopter pilots in Afghanistan and Chechnya did it, and not only once.

More like they just need to implement flare launchers, and that'll be that. The AH-1Z has a MAWS, and I think maybe the UH-1Y does too, but it might not be particularly easy to model.

It was modelled even in OFP:) By BAS team. And in ArmA1 by RKSL team. So I don't understand why there is no already developed twice flares and countermeasures in ArmA2. The whole AA system in ArmA2 now is at vanilla OFP level.:rolleyes:

[general cockface 11]

Practically all Blackhwaks, Mi-8 and Mi-24 are equipped with IR-jamming systems and RWR/IRWR systems, so crew can be warned about missile launch.

It's possible. Helicopter pilots in Afghanistan and Chechnya did it, and not only once.

It was modelled even in OFP:) By BAS team. And in ArmA1 by RKSL team. So I don't understand why there is no already developed twice flares and countermeasures in ArmA2. The whole AA system in ArmA2 now is at vanilla OFP level.:rolleyes:

Your statement about fixxed wing "at OFP vanilla level is right on"

Im a lil let down here, as flare launchers and ecm pods wouldent be that hard, as the community has it done already.

Another thing that I think needs work is the turn radius of AA missiles. Ive sat in a tunguska or avenger, and hit a jet flying top speed almost right on top of me. In reality thats an almost impossible AA shot, where you would wait for correct parameters of the missle before you would fire. Hell, Even a sidewinder can be fired from max range 40 degrees off the nose, at a target coming at you,(cant even SEE the exhaust) and the missile just turns and kills the target.

Ecm Pods...and Flares NEED to be patched in, and AA missiles need a little more skill to use. The same could be said about Mavericks and Hellfires. This stuff is way too easy, or incredibly hard to effectivly deploy sometimes.

The fixxed wing part of this game is my fav. My group that I play with USE the laser designator, and we use the aircraft for support of ground troops. Noone want an a10 to just destroy everything on the battle field, but the reality is they probably could.

The flight model and missle system is like a GIANT leap backwards...and it seems unchanged from OFP. pretty big phail there.

Even the Mk82s on the harrier are soo easy that bombing in a close support plane can be done by anyone....I want it HARD to do this..I want only the best guys to be "trusted" to fly fixxed wing because they trained with it, precticed, and bought a stick. This is worse than BF2. Ill still play it..but I dont like it. And I play All trhe good newer flight sims..This one has the weakest flight play.

As for someone to say "well..this game is about infantry" I would disagree, Its about the modern battlefield, and JETS DOMINATE now...this game has made jets soo succeptable that they cant be deployed against the AI...

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Your statement about fixxed wing "at OFP vanilla level is right on"

Im a lil let down here, as flare launchers and ecm pods wouldent be that hard, as the community has it done already.

We've just released a solution for you: RKSL ArmA2.pbo and Countermeasures Released

[NoRailgunner 0]

Now you have the chance to blame mission designers if they make aircrafts invulnerable to missiles.

[icebreakr 3105]

Or BIS for another sloppy work :/ again, community delivers much more as history already proved.

[galzohar 31]

Please say how you make easy bombings with Mk82. IRL there would be CCIP telling you pretty much where the bomb is going to drop, while in game there's no useful indicator for anything other than your heading if you're flying straight down to the target.

[-Paladin- 10]

Please say how you make easy bombings with Mk82. IRL there would be CCIP telling you pretty much where the bomb is going to drop, while in game there's no useful indicator for anything other than your heading if you're flying straight down to the target.

right click your target so the magic radar thingi is on, when ther is is a circel around your target drop the bombs.congrats you have hit or not.

if thets not helping do the stuka thing.

[leehy 0]

The birth of the OFP1/A1,A2 for the initial test work only from the military supply

This is the real reason for the CM to the BIS break up OFP2/ARMA2

If you want realistic AA system purchasing OFP2. Such as the Hollywood movie effect

Edited August 17, 2009 by leehy

[galzohar 31]

Wow, I never noticed that the unguided bombs are actually lock-able and guided... What's the point of the GBU then? I suppose there isn't unless you're bombing something that doesn't show on the radar... Funny thing is that the GBU can't be locked in a similar manner so it is actually inferior to the mk most of the time...

Edited August 17, 2009 by galzohar

[Binkowski 25]

RKSL just put an end to this thread. Kthxbye.

[LJF 0]

Let me also state that AA is supposed to deny enemy aircraft from an area... the better it does that the better (that sounds weird). Hey you don't want the aircraft to be uber overpowered like (dare I say it) in BF2. You shouldn't really be flying with enemy AA around anyway.

As for realism... there are many levels of realism. I think it should be up to the mission maker to decide the level of realism... along with gameplay, etc...

Attack helicopters were hugely underpowered in BF2 tbh, even with flares.

[nicolasroger 11]

Wow, I never noticed that the unguided bombs are actually lock-able and guided... What's the point of the GBU then? I suppose there isn't unless you're bombing something that doesn't show on the radar... Funny thing is that the GBU can't be locked in a similar manner so it is actually inferior to the mk most of the time...

you can lock laser designated target with the GBU, I simply love it.

Test it for yourself: set 3 ennemy tanks in the editor, One friendly plane with GBU. put a waypoint (for the plane) "seek and destroy" near the tanks. Put yourself as a FAC operator and mark some target!