Editor Suggestion for Unit Skill

[revolverocelotkjb 13]

The problem with the editor skill / options difficulty skill is that we have no idea how they are related to each other. We don't know if they override, or if they are added or multiplied somehow, or if an average value is used.

Currently my Difficulty settings for AI are:

SkillFriendly- 1;

SkillEnemy- 1;

PrecisionFriendly- .5;

PrecisionEnemy- .5;

Now how does the Editor Skill Sliding Bar affect these settings? What I have seen is the following:

1) With the Editor Skill Sliding Bar reduced to absolute zero the AI is at my Difficulty settings default of

SkillFriendly- 1;

SkillEnemy- 1;

PrecisionFriendly- .5;

PrecisionEnemy- .5;

2) As the Editor Skill Sliding Bar is adjusted to a higher skill level the AI's Precision (Accuracy) is increased. So for example if a Unit (Rifleman) skill is set at a quarter on the Editor Skill Sliding Bar that unit will shoot much more accurate. So for my settings as the Editor Skill Sliding Bar is adjusted it adds to the units Precision (Accuracy).

3) That's why:

this setSkill #

Isn't really what I was looking for cause it truly does override my Difficulty settings. Setting an individual unit as: this setSkill 0.25 Reduced that unit's skill and precision to 0.25...which made the unit virtually useless cause they were virtually blind.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Oh, come on. You are telling us, that you are setting each soldier's skill by typing in this line? Even if you copy it from soldier to soldier, it makes a difference, cause if I have already many lines in the init-field, I don't want to fill it up more. Additionally it's faster to have a slider like you claimed, but it could be also set to a precise value instead of being only an approximate value. This little number wouldn't eat up too much space.

Sorry but that's probably the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Next you'll say then let's add fields where you can set the numeric values for armor, health, and ammo... then you'll say add an interface which allows you to change the unit's weapons, and keep adding and adding stuff until the interface becomes so cluttered that now theres a lot of extra work just to place a single unit.

The way it is now is perfect. If you want to do more advanced stuff you can via scripting commands, and don't give me any bullshit about already having too many lines in the init field. One more command is not going to matter much. But for 95% of the time you when you just want to place a unit down and not give a shit about his skill or anything, a simple slider is sufficient.

And if you're going to talk about ease and quickness for copying stuff for multiple units, copy/pasting commands into init fields is much easier and faster than repeating stuff in a GUI.

---------- Post added at 09:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 AM ----------

this setSkill #

Isn't really what I was looking for cause it truly does override my Difficulty settings. Setting an individual unit as: this setSkill 0.25 Reduced that unit's skill and precision to 0.25...which made the unit virtually useless cause they were virtually blind.

Using setSkill has the EXACT same effect as moving the slider in the editor UI.

If you're looking for a different kind if "skill" setting then there's nothing you can do unless such a whole new system is implemented.

As Osmo said however, how exactly these two skill settings effect eachother are unknown. But I highly doubt one overrides the other. Also keep in mind that AI detection, accuracy, etc... is very complex and depends on a LOT of factors, not just their skill. So your opinion on how they effect eachother based on what you observe isn't really worth anything until the devs specifically tell us how it should behave.

---------- Post added at 10:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 AM ----------

From the devs:

The value you define by slider in editor for each unit skill is something between 0-1 and it multiplies the values defined by server/klient difficulty.

The bigger final value the faster and more precise AI reacts (range, senses, aiming)

That means editor skill slider will not override, but rather multiply the value defined in difficulty settings. So changing the AI skill in difficulty settings changes their base skill in all missions, which is pretty much what I speculated. Makes sense that way.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Big Dawg KS

[revolverocelotkjb 13]

Using setSkill has the EXACT same effect as moving the slider in the editor UI.

No...No...No. It does not. It is clearly an override.

That means editor skill slider will not override, but rather multiply the value defined in difficulty settings. So changing the AI skill in difficulty settings changes their base skill in all missions, which is pretty much what I speculated. Makes sense that way.

And what the fuck did I just say. Do you read at all. Bolded and quoted just for you.

1) With the Editor Skill Sliding Bar reduced to absolute zero the AI is at my Difficulty settings default of

SkillFriendly- 1;

SkillEnemy- 1;

PrecisionFriendly- .5;

PrecisionEnemy- .5;

2) As the Editor Skill Sliding Bar is adjusted to a higher skill level the AI's Precision (Accuracy) is increased. So for example if a Unit (Rifleman) skill is set at a quarter on the Editor Skill Sliding Bar that unit will shoot much more accurate. So for my settings as the Editor Skill Sliding Bar is adjusted it adds to the units Precision (Accuracy).

[Big Dawg KS 6]

No...No...No. It does not. It is clearly an override.

So now your'e calling the devs liars?

And what the fuck did I just say. Do you read at all. Bolded and quoted just for you.

Do you read at all? I showed confirmation from a dev that this is the case. Also your conclusions are based entirely on your opinions, there is no factual evidance (no numeirc values, no proof if what is happening internally).

I really have no idea what's going through your head, but I'm simply trying to tell you that you're wrong, and help you understand the facts...

[revolverocelotkjb 13]

I really have no idea what's going through your head, but I'm simply trying to tell you that you're wrong, and help you understand the facts...

This thread is not about how the AI works. This thread is devoted to adding a small numerical value box beside the Editor Skill Sliding Bar and that's all. Which you have stated on more than one occasion that a small numerical value box beside the Editor Skill Sliding Bar isn't needed and is nothing more than a waste of time. Great thanks for the opinion...now get the fuck over it.

You talk about not knowing the facts about the AI and at the same time you're trying to tell me these same facts that you don't know about. Get over your pompous self.

[frederf 0]

Big Dawg is correct in most of the statements he makes and I'm glad there are people that actually care about being correct like he is. However, I can't see a reason why a little right-click, popup field, type in value, hit OK wouldn't be a good addition to the editor interface for adjusting slider values.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

However, I can't see a reason why a little right-click, popup field, type in value, hit OK wouldn't be a good addition to the editor interface for adjusting slider values.

It's not really about having a field to enter a numeric value for skill, the point I'm trying to make is that simple is often better. In terms of UI, the less stuff that needs to be there the better. If there were a little field there to enter the skill value numericly, how often would it be used? A slider is faster IMO. If someone really needed to be precise enough they could take the time to type this setSkill x.

Ok, I don't really care if there is one or not, but it wouldn't really be worth the effort for BI to add, even if it's not a lot of effort, it's even less for the user to just use setSkill... which is exactly the same thing. The init field's there for a reason afterall.

Aaaannnyway. This thread should be closed. There are already 2 ways of setting a unit's skill numericly, this is a request for a 3rd. IMO doesn't really deserve its own thread.

---------- Post added at 03:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:15 PM ----------

I'm glad there are people that actually care about being correct like he is.

There's nothing I hate more than ignorance.

[revolverocelotkjb 13]

Using setSkill has the EXACT same effect as moving the slider in the editor UI.

this setSkill x.

Ok, I don't really care if there is one or not, but it wouldn't really be worth the effort for BI to add, even if it's not a lot of effort, it's even less for the user to just use setSkill... which is exactly the same thing.

So using setSkill is the EXACT same thing as moving the Editor Skill Sliding Bar?!? Ok so according to you if the Editor Skill Sliding Bar is reduced to absolute nothing then that would be exactly the same as having:

this setSkill 0

Which isn't the same because if you use this setSkill 0 it changes that unit's both skill and precision to 0. Which means the AI unit stands around doing nothing and won't even shoot.

Where as if you just slide the Editor Skill Sliding Bar to nothing the unit will have combat awareness and accuracy the same as your Difficulty level.

So let's demonstrate:

My current Difficulty Setting

SkillFriendly- 1;

SkillEnemy- 1;

PrecisionFriendly- .5;

PrecisionEnemy- .5;

An AI unit set at: this setSkill 0 in the init field

SkillFriendly- 0;

SkillEnemy- 0;

PrecisionFriendly- 0;

PrecisionEnemy- 0;

Which Big Dawg KS says is the exact same as this:

An AI unit set to nothing with the Editor Skill Sliding Bar per my Difficulty settings

SkillFriendly- 1;

SkillEnemy- 1;

PrecisionFriendly- 0.5;

PrecisionEnemy- 0.5;

Now Try it for yourselves:

this setSkill 0

in the init field and see for yourselves that this setSkill 0 is not the same as adjusting the Editor Skill Sliding Bar to nothing.

Aaaannnyway. This thread should be closed. There are already 2 ways of setting a unit's skill numericly, this is a request for a 3rd. IMO doesn't really deserve its own thread.

That is exactly how arrogant you are. Your opinion says no to the idea of a small numerical value box beside the Editor Skill Sliding Bar so the thread should be closed. Just wow!

There's nothing I hate more than ignorance.

You really must hate yourself then.

Edited August 10, 2009 by RevolverOcelotKJB

[NeMeSiS 11]

Who the hell cares it a units skill is 0.74, 0.75 or 0.76? Its not like you will ever notice the difference.

The slider does its job, and so does the init field if you care so much.

Its not that adding a numberbox would hurt the game, but its just really not important.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

So using setSkill is the EXACT same thing as moving the Editor Skill Sliding Bar?!? Ok so according to you if the Editor Skill Sliding Bar is reduced to absolute nothing then that would be exactly the same as having:

this setSkill 0

Which isn't the same because if you use this setSkill 0 it changes that unit's both skill and precision to 0. Which means the AI unit stands around doing nothing and won't even shoot.

Where as if you just slide the Editor Skill Sliding Bar to nothing the unit will have combat awareness and accuracy the same as your Difficulty level.

Did some very quicky testing in the editor. Setting the skill slider all the way to the left does NOT make the skill 0. In fact, the lowest value you can go with the skill slider is 0.2. Tested using the skill command, which returns the skill of a unit (numeric value). Setting the slider all the way to the right made it return 1. So the range of the skill slider is actually 0.2 - 1. I guess this is because as you said, setting them to 0 skill makes them utterly retarded. Hell, I even tested to make sure that the skill command returns the same value set by setSkill... it does. If this isn't proof enough for you, then I'm sorry you really are just being retarded.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Big Dawg KS

[revolverocelotkjb 13]

Did some very quicky testing in the editor. Setting the skill slider all the way to the left does NOT make the skill 0.

You are a complete DUMBASS. I never said that setting the skill slider all the way to the left would make the AI's skill 0.

What I did say was that if you use this setSkill 0 in the init field then that would make the AI's skill 0.

Reducing the skill slider all the way to the left will have that unit set at the default Difficulty setting skill and precision.

You don't fuckin read or comprehend anything at all. You just spam post, say I'm completely wrong even though you post exactly the same info about AI after I do. Wake up to reality.

And the lowest AI number is not 0.2. This 0.00000002 is the lowest AI number.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

I never said that setting the skill slider all the way to the left would make the AI's skill 0.

What I did say was that if you use this setSkill 0 in the init field then that would make the AI's skill 0.

:raisebrow:

What the fuck is your argument then...?

Reducing the skill slider all the way to the left will have that unit set at the default Difficulty setting skill and precision.

The skill and precision values in the difficulty settings are global values, and they do not change ingame. This means that this they are the base/default values to use for the AI's skill settings. Changing the unit's skill in the editor, whether your use the skill slider (which allows you to set it between 0.2 and 1) or setSkill, will multiply the values in the difficulty settings for that specific unit. According to the devs, this means that if you have the following values:

SkillFriendly- 1;

SkillEnemy- 1;

PrecisionFriendly- 0.5;

PrecisionEnemy- 0.5;

These are the values that will be used when the AI's skill is set to 1 (max).

Setting a unit's skill to 0.5 will be equivalent to changing those values to 0.5/0.5/0.25/0.25 while the unit's skill is set to 1. Sliding the skill slider all the way to the left will make their skill 0.2; that means that these values will become 0.2/0.2/0.1/0.1. That's how I interpret what the Armored Sheep said... assuming that precision values are even effected by their skill at all. Nobody ever confirmed that however, so it's pure speculation.

Also, don't call me a dumbass when you yourself have no evidence to support anything you are saying. I still have no idea why you insist on arguing with what I have to say. I'm trying to help you understand how the AI skill system works. I don't give a shit about how you think it works, I'm presenting to you the facts. I'd like to say that if you don't want to believe them then it's your loss, however I know better than that. Stop trying to pass off pure speculation as fact.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Big Dawg KS

[revolverocelotkjb 13]

What the fuck is your argument then...?

The skill and precision values in the difficulty settings are global values, and they do not change ingame. Changing the unit's skill in the editor, whether your use the skill slider (which allows you to set it between 0.2 and 1) or setSkill, will multiply the values in the difficulty settings for that specific unit.

LOL! OMG!!! The argument is that setSkill does not multiply the values of the Difficulty settings.

ONLY the Editor Skill Slider multiplies the values of the Difficulty settings.

I still have no idea why you insist on arguing with what I have to say. I'm trying to help you understand how the AI skill system works. I don't give a shit about how you think it works, I'm presenting to you the facts. I'd like to say that if you don't want to believe them then it's your loss, however I know better than that. Stop trying to pass off pure speculation as fact.

LOL!!! Yep you are trying to pass bad information off as fact. I'm really listening to what you have to say about AI even though this thread isn't about AI.

[/b] According to the devs, this means that if you have the following values:

SkillFriendly- 1;

SkillEnemy- 1;

PrecisionFriendly- 0.5;

PrecisionEnemy- 0.5;

These are the values that will be used when the AI's skill is set to 1 (max).

Setting a unit's skill to 0.5 will be equivalent to changing those values to 0.5/0.5/0.25/0.25 while the unit's skill is set to 1. Sliding the skill slider all the way to the left will make their skill 0.2; that means that these values will become 0.2/0.2/0.1/0.1.

Stop. Please for your sake just stop. No this is completely incorrect.

Edited August 11, 2009 by RevolverOcelotKJB

[Big Dawg KS 6]

LOL! OMG!!! The argument is that setSkill does not multiply the values of the Difficulty settings.

ONLY the Editor Skill Slider multiplies the values of the Difficulty settings.

Yea... where's your evidence for this? AFAIK that's completely untrue. According to my tests, setSkill has the same exact functionality as changing the difficulty slider.

My evidence is as follows:

-Using setSkill 1 reports a skill of 1 with the skill command. Moving the slider to max also reports a skill of 1 with the skill command.

-Moving the slider to min reports a skill of 0.2 with the skill command. Using setSkill 0.2 also reports a skill of 0.2 with the skill command.

-Using setSkill 0.5 reports a skill of 0.5 with the skill command. Moving the slider to approximately the center reports a skill of around 0.5 with the skill command.

My conclusion; setSkill and the skill slider modify the same value.

If you'd like I can even send you the mission I used to test this.

[revolverocelotkjb 13]

Let's see your "evidence" here: LOL!

My evidence is as follows:

-Using setSkill 1 reports a skill of 1 with the skill command. Moving the slider to max also reports a skill of 1 with the skill command.

Wow! Impressive this one is actually True!

-Moving the slider to min reports a skill of 0.2 with the skill command. Using setSkill 0.2 also reports a skill of 0.2 with the skill command.

Sorry this one is False.

-Using setSkill 0.5 reports a skill of 0.5 with the skill command. Moving the slider to approximately the center reports a skill of around 0.5 with the skill command.

Sorry this one is False too.

My conclusion; setSkill and the skill slider modify the same value.

No your conclusion is 2/3 WRONG! You got one right though!

Seriously you need to do a LOT more AI testing before you post this shit and especially if you just started testing the AI...you're way behind.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Sorry this one is False.

Sorry this one is False too.

I fail to see how you can call those false. They are observations. Are you saying that I am seeing things?

Anyway, I'm starting to think you're just trolling now. I haven't seen you post in any threads but this one and all you are doing is disagreeing with and insulting me.

[revolverocelotkjb 13]

Changing the unit's skill in the editor, whether your use the skill slider (which allows you to set it between 0.2 and 1) or setSkill, will multiply the values in the difficulty settings for that specific unit. According to the devs, this means that if you have the following values:

SkillFriendly- 1;

SkillEnemy- 1;

PrecisionFriendly- 0.5;

PrecisionEnemy- 0.5;

These are the values that will be used when the AI's skill is set to 1 (max).

Setting a unit's skill to 0.5 will be equivalent to changing those values to 0.5/0.5/0.25/0.25 while the unit's skill is set to 1. Sliding the skill slider all the way to the left will make their skill 0.2; that means that these values will become 0.2/0.2/0.1/0.1. That's how I interpret what the Armored Sheep said... assuming that precision values are even effected by their skill at all.

Nothing you said in this post is accurate at all. Reread and understand what the dev’s have said and look at your understanding of how the AI works and you will see that you are incorrect.

The value you define by slider in editor for each unit skill is something between 0-1 and it multiplies the values defined by server/klient difficulty. The bigger final value the faster and more precise AI reacts (range, senses, aiming)

According to you:

Sliding the skill slider all the way to the left will make their skill 0.2; that means that these values will become 0.2/0.2/0.1/0.1

Which isn’t even remotely close to what the dev said or what I’ve been trying to get thru your thick fucking head.

The value you define by slider in editor for each unit skill is something between 0-1 and it multiplies the values defined by server/klient difficulty. The bigger final value the faster and more precise AI reacts (range, senses, aiming)

It’s all a mathematical equation that can affect 4 categories:

SkillFriendly- #;

SkillEnemy- #;

PrecisionFriendly- #;

PrecisionEnemy- #;

The maximum Skill & Precision that a unit can have is 1.

The AI equation is: Difficulty Setting Skill/Precision # + (Remaining Difficulty Setting Skill/Precision x Editor Skill Sliding Bar %)

So using the equation with Difficulty settings of:

SkillFriendly- 0.5;

SkillEnemy- 0.5;

PrecisionFriendly- 0.5;

PrecisionEnemy- 0.5;

If the Editor Skill Sliding Bar is moved all the way to the left (Absolute zero skill) on a unit, well say a USMC Rifleman (Ally), then that USMC Rifleman (Ally) is set at the respective Difficulty Setting Skill/Precision…which at the Difficulty settings above would be:

SkillFriendly- 0.5;

PrecisionFriendly- 0.5;

The respective Difficulty Setting Skill and Precision is not affected at all with the Editor Skill Sliding Bar moved all the way to the left because:

Difficulty Setting Skill/Precision is 0.5 + (Remaining Difficulty Setting Skill/Precision of 0.5 x Editor Skill Sliding Bar % of 0%) which = 0.5

So 0.5+ (0.5 x 0%) = 0.5

As the Editor Skill Sliding Bar is moved to the right the AI’s Skill and Precision is increased. So for example lets say the Editor Skill Sliding Bar is moved to the right to say 25% at the Difficulty settings above.

0.5 + (0.5 x 25%) = 0.625

So both Skill and Precision are increased from 0.5 to 0.625.

Eventually when the Editor Skill Sliding Bar is moved 100 % to the right the respective AI unit will have the max Skill and Precision of 1.

0.5 + (0.5 x 100%) = 1.0

I have tested this extensively and seen this ingame and it supports exactly what the dev’s have said:

The value you define by slider in editor for each unit skill is something between 0-1 and it multiplies the values defined by server/klient difficulty. The bigger final value the faster and more precise AI reacts (range, senses, aiming)

That's why: this setSkill x isn't the same as the Editor Skill Sliding Bar because if you were to use this setSkill 0.25 on a unit (Ally) it would give that unit (Ally) a Skill & Precision of:

SkillFriendly- 0.25;

PrecisionFriendly- 0.25;

Anyway, I'm starting to think you're just trolling now. I haven't seen you post in any threads but this one and all you are doing is disagreeing with and insulting me.

Whatever. The only troll in this thread has been you.

Edited August 11, 2009 by RevolverOcelotKJB

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Yea... due to the huge amount of utter bullshit you just generated I'd say you're trolling. Thread is OT anyway.

[revolverocelotkjb 13]

Yea... due to the huge amount of utter bullshit you just generated I'd say you're trolling. Thread is OT anyway.

LOL!!! I created this thread to specifically see if a Small Numerical Box could be created next to the Editor Skill Slider.

YOU hijacked this thread and turned it into an AI discussion.

Edited August 12, 2009 by RevolverOcelotKJB

[revolverocelotkjb 13]

That's why: this setSkill x isn't the same as the Editor Skill Sliding Bar because if you were to use this setSkill 0.25 on a unit (Ally) it would give that unit (Ally) a Skill & Precision of:

SkillFriendly- 0.25;

PrecisionFriendly- 0.25;

Actually all I had ever tested with this setSkill x is this setSkill 1 and this setSkill 0. So just to be thorough I gave this setSkill 0.2 a try and I have to say that I agree with you Big Dawg KS that this setSkill 0.2 is the exact same as having the Editor Skill Sliding Bar moved all the way to the left. I assumed that the Editor Skill Sliding Bar moved all the way to the left was the same as having this setSkill 0 and when I witnessed the poor performance of the AI at this setSkill 0 I assumed that this was true. So apparently this setSkill x does indeed weigh into the equation of increasing the AI's Skill and Precision the same as the Editor Skill Sliding Bar. So my apologies.

Hell I don't know the specific in's and out's of how the AI works...Just wanted a thread concerning adding a Numerical box beside the Editor Skill Slider. That's all.

Edited August 12, 2009 by RevolverOcelotKJB

[W0lle 1042]

Hell I don't know the specific in's and out's of how the AI works...Just wanted a thread concerning adding a Numerical box beside the Editor Skill Slider. That's all.

I requested that a while back officially and it has been ignored yet. It would be indeed nice to have a numerical box which atleast displays the set value at all sliders, not only the skill one.

As for the recent fights and stuff taking place here: Please take that to PMs and don't fill the thread with that.