Why does CTF feel different...?

[jimgun 3]

...I dont know whether its me or what, but in general the ctf missions in ArmA2 dont feel as exciting or as fun as they did in OFP.

In OFP what we had was fair ususally a 6v6 or maybe if really lucky a 10v10. The graphics were ok for the time, and random houses placed in an area didnt seem look too out of place. Also the numbers per team were low enough to be able to get past the enemy.

Now, in ARMA2, we can have 15 v 15 upto 30 v 30, still playing on the same ctf map layout. The random houses placed to provide cover look completely out of place now, and the numbers per team generally means that every corner is being camped. It's as if you only have two choices - be the corner camper or be the fodder running into the bullets. Sitting in one corner for half an hour picking off fodder doesnt appeal to me...neither does being the fodder trying to make ground.

This isnt a general rant, or a rant against the map designers. I'm loving the game in general, and I respect those that take their own time to develop and publish maps for the community.

Just that a question hit me the other day while on Hexenkessel or corridor or some such, and I thought has anybody actually scored a flag on these maps? I even asked the team I was playing on - everyone said no. Hardly CTF then is it.

As I said not a rant just an observation...it just feels different, and I've been trying to put my finger on why. All I can come up with is map size and number of players involved....maybe I'm playing on the wrong servers.

[galzohar 31]

I seems like any kind of mission people try to make at the moment ends up as some kind of a team deathmatch. Hopefully they will get tweaked so that they are actually more than that, but in the meanwhile I'm trying to enjoy the team deathmatch style gaming. It's not that bad after all, just gets boring sometimes especially when you know this game is capable of a lot more.

[deadsmell 10]

isnt it really the complete and total lack of teamwork,and player interaction? It seems people just scatter about after they spawn for the most part, you almost feel weird if you actually happen to be near a team mate, i think its more of a player problem.

I see alot of narcissistic rambo's out there.

[--DST-- KEVOUT 10]

no ctf in hex in arm2 its called TDM :{

[sbsmac 0]

FWIW, I think JimGun got it spot on. My opinion is that most server admins and map-makers allow too many players on the maps. When you have 12v12 playing Hex, what else can it be but a frag-fest ? Put 5v5 on and it's a rather different experience.

Some map-makers are starting to go back to the older OFP style mid-size maps with a lower players-per-square-meter ratio. You can often find them on the DST, SBS and OWM servers (and probably more that I don't know about) but again, it requires a bit of discipline from the admins not to load up 25 players on each side. I'm thinking about adding a player-count limit dialog to my script-pack to help with this problem.

[deadsmell 10]

I like it with a larger player count. its so so so much better than playin in a ghost town.

[sbsmac 0]

Oh, and one other point... IMHO, JIP is wonderful for co-op and when you are trying to get a game started. It's awful for building a sense of commitment to the outcome of a PVP game. In OFP, having to wait in the lobby for 5 minutes and then knowing that if you left before the end of 30 minutes you would be labelled as a 'quitter' meant that you had to take the game and result a bit more seriously. ;-)

*Edit* Deadsmell - I agree no-one likes a ghost town. However, the ability to move around a bit from position to position rather than getting gunned down the moment you come round every corner makes for a better game I think. It means that you have to out-think the enemy rather than just out-shooting them.

Edited August 2, 2009 by sbsmac

[DLcmdr 0]

Guys people camp for a reason... and that is to abe able to hit something.

its so obvious its not even funnny.

The reason for the lack of fun is that in Arma 2 the aim is severly affected when your soldier runs a mierable 20 metres. Unlike in OFP.

This favours camperism, which favours boresome and therefore lack of excitemet.

In OFP you could actually hit something if you have been running, not in Arma.

Therefore the lack of flags, if ppl want to kill something they need to camp every corner.

This game will only succeed when the severe of the pulse breathing system gets tone down to ofp levels and ppl can hit something after sprinting.

Right know it is imposible to play a urban ctf withput camping.

Edited August 2, 2009 by DLcmdr

[.kju 3239]

Right. A client side addon can change this.

[sbsmac 0]

>the aim is severly affected when your soldier runs a mierable 20 metres

Actually even this wouldn't be so bad if the 'T' sight didn't fade away into nothingness after you'd been running a while.

>Right. A client side addon can change this.

Kju, can you point to some docs or an example that does something similar? I'm not familiar with the addon system but would be willing to give it a go. The real problem with this approach of course is persuading 'casual' players to go hunting for the addon (yes I know, there is Yoma's synchroniser but that just transfers the problem to trying to persuade people to use this). It's a bit chicken and egg- until there is a large community of players working with the addon, new players won't make the effort to use it.

[jimgun 3]

Its got nothing to do with people being campers - It's the fact that we now have servers able to support 4X to 5X the player limit on OFP, but still playing maps with the same area - so the map size and player numbers are actually forcing you to camp.

It's turned certain ctf maps into out and out tdh's, and makes it almost impossible to move around a map as there are that many players every corner is camped. No team can gain ground, and no flags are captured.

I remember CTF maps in OFP that had a few respawning vehicles, such as the one where east base was at the castle above St.Pierre.

The one on everon where west's flag was in the U shaped barrack building and east in a town with a valley inbetween, and each team got a couple of jeeps and a BMP.

Stuff like CTF-Ho Down that just had tractors, trabants and shotguns (funniest map ever) and the song from "Oh Brother Where Art Thou" - (George Clooney flick).

Just different from a rectangular border with random houses thrown around.

Maps like corridor and never scared were only made due to the low player numbers on each side anyway - and in my opinion fail miserably now due to ArmA2's size and scope.

With mac's PVP map editing thingy he's devised ( and feckin' nice work on that man btw), maybe we can come up with something a little bit more varied.

I also think mac was spot on about JIP. No JIP in certain situations was one of the things I actually think was good about OFP with hindsight. By time you had actually got to start a game you were damn well going to finish it. :D

Edited August 2, 2009 by JimGun
none of your business

[Waterman 0]

Castle Keep was the CTF above St Pierre.

CTF Everon was the other one.

We're currently working on a few larger CTF and C&H maps for the DST server that include vehicles rather than the usual close quarter combat type maps out there (although we're doing those types of maps aswell).

CTF Corridor is the worst CTF map out there IMO, might as well be a TDM. Hexenkessel is not so bad. Just give it time, there will be bigger and better maps out there in a while. The game is just new, so give it time.

Also, great job on the script pack mac.

[--DST-- Anth 10]

Well ive heard and seen this 1 billion times and theres only one thing that can be done and thats addons to change the game, to the way ofp used to feel. Arma/arma 2 is a co-op game as far as im concerned bis made it this way thats why you see very few pvp games running.

Try from a running position to crouch and kill a corner camper in arma/arma 2 :(

Then try it in ofp :)

Theres your difference between the two games!!

Ofc the bad sound where you cant hear which direction people are shooting from and the unfit soldier aiming is a major problem also.

Edited August 2, 2009 by [-DST-] Anth

[sbsmac 0]

Glad you like it guys - as long as I see people using it, I'll keep on maintaining it so the feedback is useful!

Couldn't agree more with you waterman that corridor is a complete waste of virtual space in ArmA2. In OFP the animations meant that it was actually possible to come round a corner and kill someone so playing it with 3 or 4 on a side was fun for the occasional twitch-fest.

In ArmA, it just became a matter of seeing how precisely you could get your corner-camping position sorted.

In ArmA2 I see people playing it 10v10 - wtf ?!?! There must be people out there working on PhD's in corner-camping by now I reckon. ;-)

[DLcmdr 0]

Its got nothing to do with people being campers - It's the fact that we now have servers able to support 4X to 5X the player limit on OFP, but still playing maps with the same area - so the map size and player numbers are actually forcing you to camp.

Campers are a consequnce of the extreme breathing pulse system and that affects rounds dynamism entirely.

Without so much campers due to the difficulty of aiming after running like in OFP it would change for good.

Anth;1389592']Well ive heard and seen this 1 billion times and theres only one thing that can be done and thats addons to change the game' date=' to the way ofp used to feel. Arma/arma 2 is a co-op game as far as im concerned bis made it this way thats why you see very few pvp games running.

Try from a running position to crouch and kill a corner camper in arma/arma 2 :(

Then try it in ofp :)

Theres your difference between the two games!!

.[/quote']

exactly.

Edited August 2, 2009 by DLcmdr

[deadsmell 10]

*Edit* Deadsmell - I agree no-one likes a ghost town. However, the ability to move around a bit from position to position rather than getting gunned down the moment you come round every corner makes for a better game I think. It means that you have to out-think the enemy rather than just out-shooting them.

I personally think alot of that could be changed simply by adding smoke grenades to the weapons crates. For some reason DST have completely excluded smoke from the weapons crates.

I dont know why its not in there, I know alot of fps guys hate smoke, because they cant see, but thats kind of the point. players need to be able to give themselves some concealment while they move. smoke out an area and throw the corner camper off.

Especially a game that touts realism (personally I think this game might be realisitic if you are a geriatric, or have multiple sclerosis, or you happen to drive one of the first vehicles ever made), why leave out tactical concealment?

Its just classic flashpoint through and through. One of the reviews on the game summed it up pretty good.

The game is simultaneously one of the best, and the worst. It has so much potential, but people need to play in the spirit of the game.

Really in my opinion, if you want to call this a simulator, the only thing this simulator really teaches is teamwork, and I believe that is how it is designed to be. However like i said earlier, there just a bunch of glory hounds and typical crap players that i would expect to see in every other shooter except this one. Hopefully it changes soon.

Im still having fun playing on DST server when i can get in (its a busy server most of the time) but I hope they will consider adding smoke grenades. I really think thats the place to start.

ok see you guys out there.

@sbsmac, dude youve been doing such a good job with the script packs and documentation, I really dont feel I have anything to contribute at this time. If i do though....

also I hope your feeling better.

[sbsmac 0]

>I dont know why its not in there, I know alot of fps guys hate smoke

Actually the original reason was that it completely lagged out any server you played on in OFP. You used to be able to get kicked off a server for using smoke for just this reason.

In ArmA2, I haven't noticed any lag effects and since I completely agree with you about the tactical uses, that's why I've made a couple of smoke grenades part of the default loadout in the scriptpack (although of course people can override this configuration if they feel strongly otherwise).

>also I hope your feeling better.

Thanks mate, indeed I am - surprising how quickly a broken bone can heal. Hope to be out of the sling in another week or so.

[DST_STRYKER 0]

Arma 2 is a much slower-paced game than OFP because they've had to slow animations down to make them look more realistic. The fact is movements now look more realistic but feel less realistic. Like someone said, the gun wobbling and lack of a clear single-kill gun is leaving people in the middle of the map legless and struggling to aim which is in turn forcing them to hold ground and slowing the pace of play down to literally... a crawl. We've tried to tackle this by making players essentially medics which solves the injured leg issue and this has produced good results on our CQB maps. In CTF people should be able to put their effort into fighting against each other not against the game, and as Anth said I think this could only be fully resolved by some kind of addon that reverts Arma 2 anims to how they were in OFP. As for CTFs themselves feeling like TDMs... I think that's always been the case to a certain degree and it's totally dependent on how many are on the server, the respawn time, teamwork and size of the map as to whether flags get capped.

For me, OFP only failed in its grenade throwing animations, once you'd become committed to the animation there was no way to break the throw. Unfortunately Bohemia have added more unbreakable anims such as fence hopping and much slower transition between stances. Grenades now sometimes go off, sometimes don't go off, sometimes move your player, sometimes dont, and are perfect only in their complete failure.

I think it's a culmination of these things which are making the maps feel less successful, not the maps themselves or the lack of smoke and cover. We've done everything we can to re-create the feel of Flashpoint with our maps and we'll continue to do so.

Some other people have mentioned the addition of smoke but as I understand we've not included it because it tugs on an already struggling framerate.

Stryk

[ganjaish 10]

Drop zone ftw :)

[sbsmac 0]

lack of a clear single-kill gun is leaving people in the middle of the map legless and struggling to aim which is in turn forcing them to hold ground and slowing the pace of play down to literally... a crawl. We've tried to tackle this by making players essentially medics which solves the injured leg issue and this has produced good results on our CQB maps.

Yes good point. Worth pointing out that the script-pack has an 'anti-gimp' feature (off by default) which will automatically heal players legs.

[--DST-- Anth 10]

The reason smoke was off in ofp was people could turn it off under the option cloudets. Not sure if you can do it in arma 2 but smoke is still laggy like ofp.

[.kju 3239]

What I did so far in terms of infantry gameplay:

* DisableDeflectingGrenades

* DisableFatigue

* DisableForcedOpticsForBinocular

* DisableWeaponSway

* FasterHandGrenadeThrowAnimation

* FasterStepOverAnimation

* DisableCenterHandIcon

You get the idea what is possible.

If you want to suggest the dev of specific client side tweaks,

make a ticket in proper projects.

In terms of CQB/CTF/infantry combat my vision is to disable or reduce fatigure.

Disable or very low weapon dispersion and instead have stronger sway based on unit stance.

Another key part is to speed up specific animations or transitions.

It is up to you.

[--DST-- Anth 10]

Another key part is to speed up specific animations or transitions.

[/b].

I would love to see the stand to crouch speeded up like ofp and maybe less acuracy standing and more crouching so theres a reason to crouch? In ctf I see people just running around shooting because there little point in the crouch atm.

BTW kju who are you aiming your addons to I mean which group of player base are you trying to please? What I mean is me from the ctf side might want different things to another side.

Edited August 3, 2009 by [-DST-] Anth

[.kju 3239]

Added both to the task list.

Foremost personally, my team, the league we will play in.

I do what I see useful or useful suggestion by other people.

I see only gameplay. For different gameplay you need different tweaks.

[ganjaish 10]

one thing that makes a big diffrence in ctf from ofp and arma1/2 is lean. Basically you have 3 or more players from each side lean camping, this wasnt a issue in ofp as more players would react faster on corners and not lean in and out. Yes maybee more realistic but your question was why it feels different. In my veiw this impacts the game dramatically

the speed just isnt there anymore. Here is a old you tube clip just to show how slow the game is now.