Brainstorming: making ARMA/2 deep gunplay and projecticle ballistics work on the 360

[JackandBlood 10]

So there are plenty of challenges that present themselves at the notion of a consolized ARMA 2. I'm a PC only gamer, so I really have no vested interest in an Xbox 360 ARMA 2, but sometimes I just love to brainstorm gameplay ideas. And I think both platforms can enjoy benefits of increased revenue for BIS from a successful and uncomprimising port.

Now there are a ton of subjects to tackle in the challenge of porting this game to 360 format. I'm skipping the obvious technical challenges and instead will tackle IMO a much more difficult and abstract challenge, that of preserving BIS' realistic individual bullet ballistics and long engagement ranges (which for me make this game a much more rewarding infantry and gunplay experience than other shooters), while still making it assessible for the rather clumsy and imprecise nature of a gamepad.

How are they going to perserve the challenge of BIS' comprehensive inidvidual bullet ballistics physics? It hard enough trying to hit something at ARMAs typical engagement range 200-400 m (in which ppl look quite small) with a controller, then factor in them running and changing distances, past 300 you will have to aim high, short distances (80 or less) you will have to aim slightly low, so elevation + lead off + shooting at very small targets. Its such a deep shooting experience that I can unwind and enjoy my freetime simply firing a few shots off at my sniper range. But that's with a mouse.

A Gamepad is a whole different animal, and dumbing down the shooting experience, doing auto-aim or whatever would destroy one of the central tenants of ARMA's strategic depth.

Heres the system I propose. I have not seen such implemented in any game thus far. It goes like this: When you attempt to engage difficult target(s) (say a man at 350 m, running 45 degrees obliquely towards you (remember, gamepad)). you get to activate a sort of non-realtime adjustment mode to take a ballistically adjusted shot. I'm naming it "Marksman focus". Please keep reading, the devils in the details.

The mode is a timed (3-5ish sec) pause or bullet-timeish event where you zoom to see the enemy (zoom level would be a function of target distance, weapon type/optics and caliber, etc). No assists, you judge distances based on the amount of zoom you receive and on camera travel time. You judge lead-off for moving targets based on the targets' animation, facing, etc, at the time of mode activation. The mode is of course only available after you make IDed contact with the enemy. Now heres the trick.

You get to do a double tap. First shot sends down a tracer. A couple seconds time elapse (still in zoomed, bullet time mode). You get a second shot 2ish sec after first misses, you adjust based on tracer.

If your first shot kills (the tracer round), you get a bonus shot to repeat the process after 3 sec elapse realtime on another target. For the more common case of the first shot missing, you reset 12 sec before you're able to re-enter this Marksmen mode (a second shot kill on the double tap does not get the bonus). The notion is you can pull off a string of first shot aces mimicking a successful "zeroing in" on the enemy squad, like if the enemy is moving bunched up and directly towards you.

For their tactical error and your good shooting you get the reward of potentially neutralizing mulitple targets in one shooting cycle without having the 12 second realtime reset. (Remember we are taking gamepad control, so such bonuses will be hard to come by.) In the usual case that you kill the target on the second, tracer adjusted shot you revert back to normal FOV and cant re-enter the mode for 12 secs.

You can use this time to laydown fire/pot shots, assign targets to your squad, move to a better firing position, etc. So if you've got good thumb dexteritory and a solid understanding of projectile ballistics you can string together first shot kills. Otherwise you'll have to play a more tactical approach.

The system would balance and tweaked so for most people on first practical engagement (300m) of a 10 men enemy squad the player will average 3 of the kills and either your squad mates do the rest or you suppressed them to prone position(something the AI already does, and now they are staring at tall grass and cant see a thing) and then improve your position to where you're able to pull off a string of first shot kills.

In conclusion, the basic premise of my system is that we want to keep the challenge of realistic ballistics and the overall depth of BIS' gunplay, but allow a gamepad user to actually have a chance to hit something moving or even just stationary at 300m (and not by requiring they have ungodly gamepad skills, not by resorting to auto-aim or crutches, but by implementing a hybrid system that helps with the main deficiecies of a gamepad for shooting, which is its lack of precision in engaging 300+m range small targets, compounded by the challenge of realistic projective ballistics modeling.

There is no crutch here. It will be a challenging approach to gunfights, in which the player that knows his weapons performance characteristics, moves into firing positions that stack the enemy, and has some levels of thumb dexterity will be a successful shooter. This system should allow console gamepad gamers to experience a whole new depth of shooting, previously availible only to the PC gamer.

Edited July 31, 2009 by JackandBlood

[Vandrel 10]

I just don't see it being possible to vert this game over to console, there's way to mean keys, features, and abilities to dumb it down to a 4-6 button controller.

[dayglow 2]

Most controllers have 14 buttons and 2 analog sticks. Also most buttons can detect how hard they are pressed so a soft press can be different from a hard on. There could be some intersting context sensitive schemes designed. The big hurdle would be control of your squad.

Edited July 31, 2009 by DayGlow

[Vandrel 10]

14 buttons and 2 sticks still wouldn't cut it, when you go into terms for the various weapons, vehicles, movements, views, interactions, chat, comm, map, mission editor.... not to mention map creation. This just isn't feasible.

Inorder to port this to console a LOT of stuff would have to be cut out.

How would you propose a XBOX or PS3 player creates a mission and makes 10 lines of scripting for the mission? Better yet, mission packing, modding, whatever in general. Just not possible unless they decide to include Windows with XBOX from now on in which case.... might as well use a PC.

Console platforms are not ment for complex games, they are ment for simple get up and go type gaming and have limitations when it comes to complex features.

[dayglow 2]

I'll have to check, but when I plug in my xbox controller it already has mapping for the PC, so the core gameplay should be fine. The issue of the editor would most likey not as it probably would be dropped or greatly simplified to wizards for the port.

I never played OFP:Elite on the original xbox, but people say that was ported fine.

[Vandrel 10]

/5char

Edited September 10, 2011 by Vandrel

[TechnoTerrorist303 10]

Most controllers have 14 buttons and 2 analog sticks. Also most buttons can detect how hard they are pressed so a soft press can be different from a hard on.

2 Pretty different things yes I would say.

[JackandBlood 10]

Its a long post I know, but I feel its worth reading in detail because it describes a complex and innovative style of gunplay that I proudly believe retains all the depth and challenge of BIS' projectile ballistics and simulation based gunfights WHILE elegently (IMO) making it accessible for the vastly different control mechanics of a console gamepad.

The basic premise is to address the two weaknesses that a gamepad controller exhibits when applied to BIS' sim style of gunplay: 1. sluggishness and clumsyness inherent in a gamepad 2. The total ineptitude of a gamepad in providing timely precision required for real-time gunfights at simulation ranges (100m-400m) and with the added complexity of bullet physics, moving target, etc.

The crux of my original post is a gameplay element I call Marksmen Mode. A kb/m of course requires no such mode since it transitions fine between regular movement, and precision shooting. A gamepad does not make this transition so well. My system addresses the time issue by conventional means (a variation on bullet time). It however has to be applied in a very exacting way to preserve our sim goals (the devil in the details as I said). To address the complexities of BIS' gunfighting I described the further execution details of the "Marksmen Mode"(orginally Markmen Focus, but I dont like the distracting abbreviation of that term:D). Just as a brainstorming session, I encourage anyone interested to read the full details of my idea and comment. I am confident that if you run the scenes of how the system plays out in your head a few times, it will become clear that my system allows effective use of a console gamepad while still retaining the challenging and rewarding aspects of BIS' complex gunplay.

Look i'm not arguing either way whether an ARMA 2 port to the 360 is a good idea. I just enjoy thinking about how it could be done and in a way that sacrifices no depth. I'm just focusing purely on small arms shooting mechanics in this thread cuz I enjoy the infantry combat aspect of ARMA the most and from a conceptual standpoint I feel this may be the most difficult thing to accurately port over.

So maybe if you're bored, chew on this idea a little bit. Let me know if the logic is sound, or just share your thoughts.

Edited July 31, 2009 by JackandBlood

[Vandrel 10]

/5char

Edited September 10, 2011 by Vandrel

[volkov956 0]

I rather see a console not get any more games as it is....Please devs stay with the open platform that does not need royaltie fees for Media

[JackandBlood 10]

To Vandrel: I agree 100 %, BIS' work is its own unique genre. Its an amazing accomplishment that has no equal, and it certainly could not be transferred to the 360 in its entirety. Remember this point of this topic is a purely academic think-tank of how the infantry and gunplay portion of the ARMA experience could be implemented for the 360 in a way that does not diminish the simulation and depth of a BIS product.

Look, as far as whether or not they should do this, I think BIS could create an excellent, squad level infantry game for the Xbox360, that, with proper implementation of a control scheme for the 360 controller would blow every other console shooter out of the water. The depth and challenge introduced by having BIS' projectile ballistics gunplay as opposed to hit-scan gunplay would alone raise the title far above anything an xbox360 gamer has ever experienced. Instead of the full sandbox nature of ARMA2, BIS' 360 release can be a single player campaign, again squad level infantry. Use the same engine so you get the same freedom of choice in accomplishing objectives and you get the same unpredictable nature of the enemy movement and behavior. Iron out the bugs, bring back the scale (view distance, map size, mission boundaries within the map) to something doable on the 360.

We have had the pleasure and sense of accomplishment of making a clutch lead off shot on a target running full speed 500 m away right before he successfully finds cover, but xbox 360 gamers have not, and for many of them such an experience would be an epiphany. The game would sell very well and may win some very prestigious awards.

BIS owns this genre, they will not get corrupted into making something generic. They have a pride in what they do because only they can do it, and because only they can do it, business sense will have them stay true to their monopolized genre and continue to advance it to our benefit.

[Eagle911 10]

FPS games need to GTFO consoles

[sunray 10]

"a soft press can be different from a hard on"

You know it. And well said, J&B.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Sunray

[JackandBlood 10]

Well its a suggestion thread, so hopefully Bohemia will be reading and considering my ideas. Making something for the 360 would be profitable, shooters are the way to go on that platform, so extract that shooter portion from ARMA2. Then figure out how to transfer the deep shooting experience BIS has developed to work with a gamepad (thats where my ideas hopefully will help) and BIS will have made some good money and done something unprecedented for the console market. Their expanded team and financial resources can then aid in fixing some of the outstanding issues with ARMA 2. Its a win for all.

[spec_ops_sniper 0]

I just don't see it being possible to vert this game over to console, there's way to mean keys, features, and abilities to dumb it down to a 4-6 button controller.

Has anyone her even played Operation Flashpoint Elite, You know for the xbox. Best console game other than Halo IMO. OFPE worked so well on the console and i played it for hours. BIS managed to fit almost everything on the controller, even free look.

So please dont say you cant put it on the 360 because there arnt enough buttons there is already proof that it works.

[JackandBlood 10]

Well for OFPE I'm looking at reviews and screenshots, and it looks like the draw distance and super heavy fog makes it so firefights happen at the much more console friendly 100m or less. Thats well, some weak shit. Probably had auto-aim too.

No one has yet to really analyze my idea (first post), of a new gunplay mechanism to sacrifice nothing in ARMA/2s physics based gunplay work with the limitations of a gamepad. Comeon people, this isnt gamespot forums, you all gotta be intelligent, thoughtful ppl otherwise u wouldnt be playing ARMA/2 in the first place.

[B-oodThorn 10]

"a soft press can be different from a hard on"

I need to grow up...but that line was funny :D

[NexusPhase 10]

Have you guys thought about if they used the D pad to change what all the buttons do like down for 1 set right for another and so on.... in they did that it would be 4x14... so 56 buttons would work:)

[Vandrel 10]

Has anyone her even played Operation Flashpoint Elite, You know for the xbox. Best console game other than Halo IMO. OFPE worked so well on the console and i played it for hours. BIS managed to fit almost everything on the controller, even free look.

So please dont say you cant put it on the 360 because there arnt enough buttons there is already proof that it works.

Really? And how did the editor work? Multiplayer, hosting servers, admin/server commands.

I'd really like to know how scripting worked out for ya