The USMC needs a physical fitness program...

[Uranium-235 10]

How come even the most menial activity gets my guy winded, panting like he just had to climb up a flight of stairs after demolishing a tub full of hot dogs? I don't expect to run any marathons here with all my gear, but when the act of simply DROPPING PRONE gets my heart rate up I think it's time to lay off the MREs as snack material.

The act of sprinting for a helicopter almost made me wonder if the corpsman brought an AED because I was expecting my guy to simply fall down, puke, and pass out halfway.

[Cheeba 10]

It's not like they can run 10000m without stopping or anything. Oh wait....

It doesnt bother me that much, even after running for awhile...they regain composure relatively quickly.

[Haystack15 10]

Well you got to remember that they are holding equpiment that weights about 30 - 45 pounds total. When you run with the much weight on you. You will use more energy. The Human body will run for a total 3 mins on average (Fit person) without slowing down.

Adding 30 to 40 pounds will slow down the human speed about 52% if not more.

[frederf 0]

It's more like 80-90 lbs. The protective clothing weights 30 pounds on its own.

[Tincup 10]

Its funny to see these post from persons that have no first hand experience. Soldiers do not possess some freakish strength or endurance, they are not some super species. Are they in shape? Yes! more so than your everyday person walking the street. Like others have said, depending on the loadout you can tote around an additional 100 lbs of weight. Hence the panting and what not that you are complaining about. Here's a idea for you! :) Get your self a few tie down staps, go into your living room. Have a friend help you strap the end table to your back, be sure it is good and tight! *Safety first* :) Then run a few laps around the block. Let me know how that works out. ;)

[Vandrel 10]

/5char

Edited September 10, 2011 by Vandrel

[galzohar 31]

Since a single 7.62 to the chest at 100m is a 100% kill, I highly doubt we're wearing 30 pound protective clothing.

Anyway, stamina drops down way too fast. I'd understand the quick stamina drop rate if I was fully abusing my Arma 2 inventory, but with normal loadouts it's plain outrageous. Heck, running 10-20 meters or going prone and then back up just once should have little effect on my heart rate/breathing almost regardless of what I'm carrying. Doing it repeatedly though should start affecting you, but currently the effects are WAY overdone, and the sounds are WAY overdone on top of the overdone effect.

I'm not complaining about the effects you get after a long run (though a smoother sway would be nicer than the current random jerks you get for your weapon), but rather the effects you get after very short runs. If anything, you can jog for WAY too long with no real consequences (as your stamina will hit minimum value pretty quickly while your running speed remains the same).

[zolop0 10]

Simple test. Record yourself for a video while running and carrying 80+ pounds of weight, if you are in healthy shape.

You do know that the 7.62 caseless and other NATO/US bullets go through and the AK bullets can go through cermatic armor at their effective ranges right?

[FraG_AU 10]

I agree with OP, who mentioned the stand/crouch etc. I think some of the model needs tweaking. Once again this is in reference to "stationary" movements not running etc

I certainly would like a "brisk" walking speed that will give you a better balance of endurance and land coverage... double walk.. But i guess that will make controls more clumsy!

[arr 10]

Normally soldiers don't carry most of their equipment in the actual combat.

Edited March 5, 2010 by arr

[Uranium-235 10]

Its funny to see these post from persons that have no first hand experience. Soldiers do not possess some freakish strength or endurance, they are not some super species. Are they in shape? Yes! more so than your everyday person walking the street. Like others have said, depending on the loadout you can tote around an additional 100 lbs of weight. Hence the panting and what not that you are complaining about. Here's a idea for you! :) Get your self a few tie down staps, go into your living room. Have a friend help you strap the end table to your back, be sure it is good and tight! *Safety first* :) Then run a few laps around the block. Let me know how that works out. ;)

Name a single character model in-game that is carrying anything resembling CLOSE to even 80 pounds of gear. There's no "EOD" character option wearing a bigass bomb-proof suit, so... no. Even if encumbrance factored into this, sure, I can see a guy getting pretty beat down if he was carrying a Javelin and a riced-up rifle... but are you telling me the 'sniper' character is carrying 100 pounds of gear? Most of the models in game are wearing nothing heavier than a jacket and a Camelback. Unless they're drinking LEAD I sincerely doubt they're carrying a heavy load whatsoever.

Tell me though, how you get hideously out of breath and unable to aim straight just by DROPPING PRONE?

---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:18 PM ----------

Simple test. Record yourself for a video while running and carrying 80+ pounds of weight, if you are in healthy shape.

You do know that the 7.62 caseless and other NATO/US bullets go through and the AK bullets can go through cermatic armor at their effective ranges right?

Actually in total violation of our safety rules, I've gone on a brisk jog with 110 pounds of aircraft computer in my hands (About $1.8 million). I was able to cover the flightline without sounding like I was struggling to draw my next breath of life (hey yeah, flightline - you know, where things like F/A-18s live. Where I work. Because I'm in the military. Hummm) - in ArmA2, they start panting like a bitch in heat if you 'run' more than three or four feet.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Uranium-235

[zolop0 10]

Actually in total violation of our safety rules, I've gone on a brisk jog with 110 pounds of aircraft computer in my hands (About $1.8 million). I was able to cover the flightline without sounding like I was struggling to draw my next breath of life (hey yeah, flightline - you know, where things like F/A-18s live. Where I work. Because I'm in the military. Hummm) - in ArmA2, they start panting like a bitch in heat if you 'run' more than three or four feet.

Lucky you didn't drop the computer :) . Interesting points. By aircraft computer is a lap-top design to interface with aircraft computers to do maintenance or am I thinking of something else? Or do you mean the actual parts of the computer for a aircraft?

[Uranium-235 10]

Lucky you didn't drop the computer :) . Interesting points. By aircraft computer is a lap-top design to interface with aircraft computers to do maintenance or am I thinking of something else? Or do you mean the actual parts of the computer for a aircraft?

I mean a big assed heavy black box that goes inside the jet full of god-knows-what that breaks all the time that the taxpayers would never have paid for if they knew what a piece of crap it was kind of aircraft computer :D

[zolop0 10]

I mean a big assed heavy black box that goes inside the jet full of god-knows-what that breaks all the time that the taxpayers would never have paid for if they knew what a piece of crap it was kind of aircraft computer :D

rofl :D

[Vandrel 10]

/5char

Edited September 10, 2011 by Vandrel

[zolop0 10]

That is incorrect, the sappy plates issued with the MTV flak jacket (the one used in ArmA2 for the Marines) uses e-sappy plates witch are rated and designed for 7.62 impacts. They are a huge improvement over the sappy plates we used in 2003 for the invasion of Iraq where you were often lucky to get just 1 sappy plate let alone 2 and they were much thinner and crude.

Ah...I was thinking that they were the Sappy Plates, not the e-sappy plates. Thanks for the information.

[Nutlink 10]

I kind of agree with the OP. I don't mind it from the running at all, but from being perfect normal to walking and jumping over a fence penalizes way too much. Same with going prone or from prone to standing.

[galzohar 31]

That is incorrect, the sappy plates issued with the MTV flak jacket (the one used in ArmA2 for the Marines) uses e-sappy plates witch are rated and designed for 7.62 impacts. They are a huge improvement over the sappy plates we used in 2003 for the invasion of Iraq where you were often lucky to get just 1 sappy plate let alone 2 and they were much thinner and crude.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing? What I was saying is that if you would wear ceramic plates there's no way a 7.62 to the chest would instantly kill you every single time. Since in-game it kills you every single time, it means ceramic plates are not modeled, and thus their weight shouldn't be modeled either.

Regardless, running with *any* weight (with a reasonable loadout, not 200 pounds...) for 10-20 meters shouldn't make you start making audible breathing sounds nor affect your aim in any noticeable way.

[zolop0 10]

EDIT ignore the first link I posted. It is removed. Sorry guys.

U.S. Army public source materials for the 7.62mm M993 AP round state 15mm penetration at 300 meters and 7mm pentration at 500 meters vs HA.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007smallarms/5_8_07/Sadowski_Leng.pdf

Latest information is May 2007 is on the PDF. This is in relation in the topic about the weight of specific combat load/ammo.

“The dismounted infantryman continues to be over-burdened while conducting modern combat operations...â€

“Reduce Combat Load through doctrine and equipment changes...â€

Natick Soldier Center, March 2005

So True...

Edited July 28, 2009 by zolop0

[frederf 0]

Vandrel, galzohar is just being a little kid whining that because the full plate protective clothing's protection is not properly modeled, neither should the weight. This is despite the fact that of course the marines running around are carrying at least the chest plates. Marines going "slick" is quite the no-no. A deficiency in realism in one aspect of the game is no justification for lack of realism in another.

Sprinting is a pace that is a 3m45s mile, no joke. That's Olympic fast. Running around "normally" is a 5m07s mile. That's a crazy pace. Even walking is a 16m mile, which isn't all that bad. Special forces have a standard of 45 min for a 3 mile ruck march. I think people forget just how quickly our soldier avatars are running around.

[galzohar 31]

Sprinting is a pace that is a 3m45s mile, no joke. That's Olympic fast. Running around "normally" is a 5m07s mile. That's a crazy pace. Even walking is a 16m mile, which isn't all that bad. Special forces have a standard of 45 min for a 3 mile ruck march. I think people forget just how quickly our soldier avatars are running around.

Didn't you *just* say that having 1 deficiency in realism is no justification for lack of realism in another? Sure running speed needs fixing, and for CQB and some other situations we need a speed that's in between "fast march" and "jog almost as fast as a sprint". Anyway just because running speed is off doesn't mean the stamina system is ok.

As for the plates, if they're modeled, they should be modeled fully, and if they're not modeled, they shouldn't be modeled at all. Modeling just carrying it and not modeling their protection is pure BS.

Not that currently the stamina system takes the plates into account, considering the high movement speed, but if anyone is to ever make a custom one, unless the effect of the plates is modeled their weight shouldn't be modeled either. Just like including the weight of the laser sights on the M16s would be a joke if you can't actually use them.

[frederf 0]

Running speed does not need fixing. When you are running ArmA2 you're going as fast as you are actually going, and it's fast and will tire you. I'm trying to give a reality check to show just how fast running is and why it tires the character like it does. The problem is not that running is fast; the problem is that people think running isn't as fast as it is (and underestimate the weight carried) and expect to not get tired as fast as they do. Running at 16mph with an assault load is not something you sustain for all that long. The fact I can do that for 1000m and still hit something at 100m within 5 seconds of stopping is impressive of the physical conditioning of the in-game soldiers.

Just because you'd like to jog at 8mph (and can't) and have the associated fatigue doesn't mean it's ok to have 8mph fatigue tied with with 16mph running. Life don't work that way and God willing your whack arse notions will never make it into any game I ever play.

Can you not see that running around naked without the armor-associated fatigue and not having the armor protection is worse than having the armor associated fatigue and not having the armor protection? It is assumed that the marines are wearing them as fact. It is not believable that they would not wear them in game. Why would you propose a more non-believable scenario over a less non-believable one? At least the armor can be attempted later by ACE2 or something.

[Vandrel 10]

Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Obviously a disagree considering my wording for incorrect. A direct shot from a 7.62 round on a e-sappi will not penetrate. They are designed for resistance up to 7.62 and are marked as such on the plates.

Now, repeated hits on the same plate will wear on the integrity of the protection and eventually it will break.

NSN ESAPI Front / Back Plates

Front and Back, certified Boron Carbide Strike Face, multi-hit, Level IV NSN ESAPI Plates. Defeats 5.56 Ball, 7.62 x 39 Ball, 7.62 x 39 AP, 7.62 x 54 API, 7.62 x 63 AP(M2).

Low-Profile Standard Weight, Contoured Side Inserts

Standard 6x6, single round, Level III contoured side inserts. Defeats 5.56 Ball, 7.62 x 39 Ball, 7.62 x 39 AP.

Now take those plates and toss them in this,

The new vests, weighing in at about 30 pounds each, are three lbs. more than previous regulation body armor. Marines, who are already carrying up to 95 lbs. depending on the mission, say they feel the difference

All of that with a 100oz sack of water on your back, 6 or more 30 round mags (if you are not the unlucky SAW or 240 gunner), plus PPE (balistic eye pro, gloves, whatever else your unit SOP requires), helmet and a 10 pound weapon or for some a 10 pound weapon and a 3 pound weapon. Top all of that off with 100+ degree weather, combat, bullets flying, sh|t hitting the fan.

Then tell me it's stupid how they get winded in ArmA2. I think it's stupid how they get winded and sound bad but you still keep running. VBS2 has a nice black out feature when you run yourself to death, I beleive ACE added it for ArmA as well.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Vandrel

[Uranium-235 10]

A deficiency in realism in one aspect of the game is no justification for lack of realism in another.

Sprinting is a pace that is a 3m45s mile, no joke. That's Olympic fast. Running around "normally" is a 5m07s mile.

Running speed does not need fixing.

Can you not see that running around naked without the armor-associated fatigue and not having the armor protection is worse than having the armor associated fatigue and not having the armor protection?

It is not believable that they would not wear them in game.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

What's not believable is that you've contradicted your own points like 8 times in three posts and still are trying to argue that you're right.

- Running speed is hideously unrealistic. Not only in our OPTIONS for a running speed, but the pace itself is pretty crazy.

- Player damage modeling is unrealistic, because it's clear they're not wearing any body armor.

- Fatigue is unrealistic because some things fatigue you too fast, fatigue doesn't last long enough, and you can run forever anyway. Note that this applies to 'slick' characters as well, like, say, a vehicle crewman or a pilot, whose helmet is probably the heaviest thing he has on him.

Yet you say:

- Running speed is fine.

- Fatigue is perfect.

- Damage model is fine.

I'm not even going to get in to how you think what it looks like your character is wearing and what the player actually experiences is totally realistic, even though it's completely contradictory in-game.

Maybe you should stick with calling people whining children like you did originally.

Then tell me it's stupid how they get winded in ArmA2.

It's stupid how they get winded in ArmA2.

Bludgeoning your point with a barrage of information in what I can only assume is some half-assed attempt to bury your opponents in a sea of utter irrelevance does nothing to change the fact that:

1) There's a lot of character models in the game that are *NOT* wearing anything even close to a 50 pound load - OPFORs for example?

2) Wearing even 100 pounds isn't going to make you gasp and struggle for your next breath, unable to aim.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Uranium-235

[frederf 0]

- Running speed is hideously unrealistic. Not only in our OPTIONS for a running speed, but the pace itself is pretty crazy.

This point is entirely valid of course, but is irrelevant to the topic at hand. "Given the speed the characters run, the fatigue displayed is good." That is my statement. That statement stands no matter if you say "Well the running speed was different?" It's like I said "X+X = 4 if X=2" then you say "No, you're full of crap. X+X=6 if X=3."

- Player damage modeling is unrealistic, because it's clear they're not wearing any body armor.

It is not clear whether or body armor is being worn or not. You cannot suggest that they are not simply because its effects are not present. There's this little thing called the programmers screwing up. You could argue that the TOW launcher isn't really a TOW because it's max range is 1500m or the M107 isn't really an M107 because a real M107 would have an adjustable scope.

- Fatigue is unrealistic because some things fatigue you too fast, fatigue doesn't last long enough, and you can run forever anyway. Note that this applies to 'slick' characters as well, like, say, a vehicle crewman or a pilot, whose helmet is probably the heaviest thing he has on him.

Now you're blaming the design and scope of the fatigue system and not the level of fatigue coded. Just because it's not as detailed or nuanced as you would like doesn't mean it's wrong for its own scope. ArmA2 does not handle fatigue based on load, character class, or anything else. It is beyond the scope of the simulation.

To find issue with the values in the system you have to provide an argument in tune with "Given the same level of complexity in simulation as exists currently, this should be the case ____." Otherwise, you're just saying you want a more detailed simulation which has no bearing on if this level of complexity has gotten it right or not.

Yet you say:

- Running speed is fine.

- Fatigue is perfect.

- Damage model is fine.

-Didn't say that.

-Didn't say that.

-Didn't say that.

I'm not even going to get in to how you think what it looks like your character is wearing and what the player actually experiences is totally realistic, even though it's completely contradictory in-game.

Of course experiences in the game are contradictory. The game has many flaws and oversights. It's all in how you interpret, rationalize, and compartmentalize these contradictions. The characters are marines which suggests they are wearing full armor. The characters are vulnerable to small caliber fire which suggests they are not wearing full armor. The characters fatigue at a rate which suggests they are burdened with full armor.

That's 2 for and 1 against. My conclusion is that the marines are wearing full armor but BIS has not modeled the protective effects correctly. My conclusion is enhanced by my tendency that encourages slow, tactical behavior over fast, arcadey behavior.

2) Wearing even 100 pounds isn't going to make you gasp and struggle for your next breath, unable to aim.

Reading comprehension is not your strongest suit. I said run for 1000m with a heavy load and then immediately try to shoot, not simply shoot with a heavy load.