White soldiers actually can jump.

[galzohar 31]

A stamina system I used in another game by plugging numbers into 2 mods other people made for modifying speed based on gear bulk:

I gave each item a bulk value directly proportional to its weight, then for big items added a small amount of extra bulk based on their size (so for example M4A1s got a tiny extra, M16A4s got a tiny bit more, AT-4 got a small increase and M82 or M240B got a mediocre increase).

Assuming a player is carrying B bulk, and when you convert a human's (possibly with basic gear that does not appear in the loadout but every soldier has, such as helmet, vest) weight to bulk you get C bulk, then the following formula for speed worked pretty well:

speed multiplier =C / (C + B * A)

A is a number you can use to fine-tune, as if A=1 you would run twice as slow with carrying your own weight in gear, which feels too fast for such a heavy load. Using A=2 gave reasonable results, but again this can be fine-tuned until the movement speed feel appropriate for given loadouts. Since the game gave complete freedom in loadouts, I experimented with loadouts I know from RL and can expect how slow you should run with them, as well as excessively heavy loadouts that should've been impossible (say, LMG+M4+plenty of ammo for both + some grenades) to make sure they slow you down badly enough that nobody will want them. Again with bulk being rather proportional to the weight this worked well with A=2 (so a man carrying himself would move at 1/3 speed).

Another option is to have (C / (C + B)) ^ A, which may or may not feel more realistic (was impossible to implement in the other game I tested this with). The result of using this alternative formula compared to the first one will be that initially gear doesn't have as much of an effect but when loading up heavily the effect will increase significantly (for A>1 obviously).

Stamina loss rate doesn't need any changing, as slower movement means you will "spend" more stamina to run the same distance, assuming stamina loss is based on time spent running rather than distance.

[Thirdup 0]

I applaud *having* a stamina system.

Just not the one used by ACE (the blackouts...then falling down face-first....not being able to even fire your weapon).

Weight limits are great. Inventory restrictions I have no issue with. Even restricted speed and traversing ability is quite realistic.

But not constant and continuous blackouts. And certainly not the loss of control of your trigger finger.

Like I said, we loved ACE. We incorporated it into *every* mission on our sever. But there were parts of it that left a lot to be improved on.

[Apocal 10]

Yeah, one AT round and launcher. And my primary weapon with clips (note it's an M16 and not a SAW). Look at the video. I'm not carrying a AA weapon, a machine gun, and three backpacks.

It's an MG36 you are carrying. I see that much. I also see an AT4, but since you didn't show your gear menu, I can't tell the most important part; how much weight total.

Did you ever play AMRA with ACE? The stamina system was beyond retarded.

It was a good tradeoff between the technical issues of not being able to adjust player speed, but needing some way of penalizing them for carrying heavy weapons. The passing out thing was harsh, but it needed to be to force players to respect the limitations. I think I blacked out all of two or three times total in the seven months I played the ACE mod. My guy is exhausted? Stop moving, wait 15-45 seconds, start moving again. People that felt the need to move fast had plenty of forewarning.

No, I do not expect to be able to carry 300lbs of gear and sprint endlessly. But the default ArmA stamina system was far better than the one imposed by ACE.

Sprinting endlessly was more or less what default ArmA stamina was...

Problem was that you couldnt even walk with a decent amount of extra stuff on your back without passing out so in the end you needed a vehicle for your extra gear anyway which made the whole backpack feature pointless. :p

I assure you that I can hump 60lbs of gear across my lawn without "blacking out" after ten paces or "falling to the ground" after 30 paces.

ACE stamina = fail

24kg - 52lbs. And that's a damned sight bigger than any lawn I've walked across. As a bonus feature, skip ahead to 2:10 for the 51kg sprint. Also, unlike yours, you can see (in HQ anyway) just what my weight is according to the gear menu. What exactly were you carrying that you only make 10 paces before exhaustion and 30 before collapse? Let's be honest now. On top of all this, ACE had a "base" 15-20kg (can't recall off the top of my head) on top of what you had in terms of selectable gear; to simulate flak, kevlar, camelbak, boots, utes, etc that didn't show up in the gear menu.

So my 24kg was actually more like 40kg... yet I can still move with a purpose over hundreds of meters before becoming exhausted. And even with a combat load of 65kg (51+15, rounded down AKA still over 140lbs) I'm able to jog for a not-insignificant distance.

The only way that ACE's stamina system failed was in allowing me to regularly pack that much (I took some crazy loadout, like a M240 with 1100 rounds of ammunition, CLU with 2 Javelins and laser designator when playing Domination) and I never felt particularly punished by it.

A stamina system I used in another game by plugging numbers into 2 mods other people made for modifying speed based on gear bulk:

Which was apparently not possible to do in ArmA1. Speed remained uniform regardless of fatigue, only sight wavering increased. So they did the next best thing.

EDIT: And upon watching your video again, it's not even from a cold start! WTF man, biased much?

Edited July 28, 2009 by Apocal

[galzohar 31]

If it's not possible to slow down players in Arma 2 either then expect extremely unrealistic loadouts to remain, which would be a big shame. The whole "blacking out" concept is extremely retarded. I'd rather just have more strict and more detailed restrictions on inventory if movement speed cannot be modified in any way, and even that will be extremely unrealistic but at least better than what we have now.

Basically if you have no speed modifications you can't make a big difference between the javelin guy and the rifleman, as both are carrying a viable loadout that shouldn't make their bones break and their brains stop working, but the first should run much slower than the other.

[NeMeSiS 11]

On top of all this, ACE had a "base" 15-20kg (can't recall off the top of my head) on top of what you had in terms of selectable gear; to simulate flak, kevlar, camelbak, boots, utes, etc that didn't show up in the gear menu.

So my 24kg was actually more like 40kg...

Well now the system makes sense to me, maybe they should have shown that in the menu as well as it would have removed alot of confusion. :p

Such a shame, i almost felt i was superhuman. :( ;)

[Thirdup 0]

If it's not possible to slow down players in Arma 2 either then expect extremely unrealistic loadouts to remain, which would be a big shame. The whole "blacking out" concept is extremely retarded. I'd rather just have more strict and more detailed restrictions on inventory if movement speed cannot be modified in any way, and even that will be extremely unrealistic but at least better than what we have now.

That's basically what I was trying to get at. I'm not opposed to a restricted stamina system with limitations, just not the ACE "blackout/fall down" system. I'd rather see inventory/weight simply limited/adjusted.

Example: you can carry twelve 30rd clips *OR* one Jav round

But you don't let a player pick up both and then have him just blackout and keel over at the foot of the ammo box.

What exactly were you carrying that you only make 10 paces before exhaustion and 30 before collapse? Let's be honest now.

If it was ACE, it was likely: bandages, bandages, bandages, morphine, etc (but that's a whole other story). ;)

My standard loadout would have been an AT weapon + 1 rd and a scoped primary (usually an ACOG). Four-six 30 rd clips. A few 203s. Then a few of each med.

But in the video I may have very well been maxed out (I honestly don't recall). It was flimed to display how quickly one could induce backouts (a few paces) and total incapacitation (a few more paces) which lasted almost a full minute.

To each their own....but to me the blackout system was horrid.

EDIT: And upon watching your video again, it's not even from a cold start! WTF man, biased much?

EDIT: Of course I'm biased (I didn't and still don't like the ACE stamina system). But the clip *was* filmed from a dead start at the foot of the ammo box. I started the camera as I took off running. Neither here nor there. I can replicate it but there is really little reason to do so. Obviously the stamina system kicked in, so obviously I was overloaded. The object of the clip was to demonstrate what occurs.

Edited July 28, 2009 by Thirdup

[Apocal 10]

It was frustrating for me the first few times it happened. But like I said, I can count on one hand how many times I actually passed out and still have a finger left over to pick my nose. You had to pretty much ignore the warning signs and it wasn't like they were subtle.

If it was the type of thing that just happened out of the blue, I agree with you. But in this case, nah, unrealistic behavior should be punished harshly, so any rational cost/benefit analysis sends you right back to realistic gameplay.

[galzohar 31]

The problem is that if you balance the total gear limitation around an AT soldier's standard loadout, you will either have riflemen carrying excessive amounts of gear (because they can and it has no cost), or you will have everyone carrying AT (similar to the current system). There has to be a slowdown (best way) or at least a faster stamina drain (not as effective) for people carrying more gear, so that there is an actual mobility advantage to carrying a "standard" loadout rather than an AT loadout. Problem with only stamina penalty is that the current stamina system already drops you to 0 stamina very fast, so there won't be a big difference between maximum loadout and a light loadout.

[Crossaber 10]

This is not about the game only, did you ever try to carry a man on your back and jump? Comeon, you think the gear are made of paper? A normal soldier is wearing about 60~80lb of gear during battle, only SWAT got similar action in training but that's about 10 years ago.

[ffs 10]

[galzohar 31]

Yeah, we should have all guys with no millitary background be simulated like that in the game!

Anyway, his vest and bag don't even fit.

[Apocal 10]

Yeah, we should have all guys with no millitary background be simulated like that in the game!

Anyway, his vest and bag don't even fit.

Yet he was required to carry all that with him. Hurrah for the Good Idea Committee picking what you carry a hundred miles from doing anything useful!

:rolleyes:

[galzohar 31]

By "don't fit" I mean that it seems his vest size was adjusted for someone much bigger than him, and the backpack adjusted for someone much smaller then him.

It's like you go and wear pants 2 sizes under your size and shoes 2 sizes above your size and then go for a jog. You'll probably fall down too.

[Apocal 10]

By "don't fit" I mean that it seems his vest size was adjusted for someone much bigger than him, and the backpack adjusted for someone much smaller then him.

It's like you go and wear pants 2 sizes under your size and shoes 2 sizes above your size and then go for a jog. You'll probably fall down too.

That's actually what you look like when suited and booted...

[weegee_101 0]

I would love to see you jump over something in 50 pounds of gear. You'd fall flat on your face and possibly hurt yourself.

[galzohar 31]

That's actually what you look like when suited and booted...

No man, when your vest fits properly it doesn't bounce all over the place. This is from experience. You can clearly see that his vest does not fit properly for him, either it's not his vest or he's a non-combatant (or both).

You can see at 0:20 that the vest just doesn't sit tight on his body. Also he can't take off his bag and falls over because the leashes are too tight. To top it all off, those huge medical equipment bags are usually not carried in actual combat - that is, you're not going to assault up a fortified position when them (then again, you also won't do that with a Javelin either, but you WILL with a standard combat load).

[Apocal 10]

No man, when your vest fits properly it doesn't bounce all over the place. This is from experience. You can clearly see that his vest does not fit properly for him, either it's not his vest or he's a non-combatant (or both).

Do you mean his armor or his chest rig when you say vest? His chest rig isn't fastened.

To top it all off, those huge medical equipment bags are usually not carried in actual combat

...

[galzohar 31]

I mean sure you'd carry it, but you won't run with it up a hill with fortified enemy defense stations or anything like that.

And yes, he's a total mess, so really he's no reference for anything.

[Pyrodox 0]

Do you mean his armor or his chest rig when you say vest? His chest rig isn't fastened.

...

Yeah, he's wearing an FLC (Fighting Load Carrier) over an IBA OTV (the Interceptor Body Armor, Outer Tactical Vest that was just replaes with the IOTV). His FLC doesn't have the waist strap Fastex buckles fastened, so it's flopping around.

It looks like he falls over on his side in an attempt to leverage the bag against the ground to get his arms out of the shoulder straps. He's wearing the straps a bit too tightly, and he should probably loosen them before trying to remove the pack anyway.

That guy is a medic, though, they carry a lot more gear than the regular soldier. Most Infantry you see will have the IBA/IOTV with 6-10 magazines (about 30 pounds worth of gear with the plates in) plus a good amount of water and some other supplies, probably at least another 10+ pounds, plus the weapon (about 7 pounds loaded) and helmet (about 4 pounds), so even the standard issue foot soldier is going to be hauling around about 50 pounds or so in full battle rattle.

I don't think "jumping" should really be put in game... However, the ability to "dive" over obstacles, or pull yourself up onto small walls and roll over the top of them would be pretty realistic. You're just not going to run towards a fence in full battle gear and jump vertically over it, remaining upright the whole way and landing on your feet on the other side. You'd be lucky if you could get your feet a couple of feet off the ground vertically in that much gear. If you're talking about taking a running dive over an obstacle though, that I think should be available, when you're taking fire you should have the option to throw yourself behind cover or over small obstacles.

Possibly a system that just relies on your current movement state and the height of the obstacle? I.E. you sprint and hit the "clear obstacle" button, and you end up diving over it landing on your stomach/side/whateer... While if you walk up to the obstacle and hit the "clear obstacle" button, you do the standard "step over" animation. And if you walk up to a slightly taller obstacle than say a fence, you hit the button and you jump up, grabbing with your hands and pulling yourself over. If you sprint at a wall, you can jump a little higher to pull yourself over, but you'll be completely exhausted on the other side.

I'm not talking 10' tall walls here, I mean just slightly above chest, maybe eye level, what you would be able to do in real life. Maybe there could also be a chance you'd hurt your ankle or leg by doing so, since you'd only really do such a thing in real life if your life depended on it and you had to get out of there fast.

[galzohar 31]

The only form of jumping that is probably needed (for completeness sake) is horizontal jumping. Nobody ever jumps vertically IRL in order to get over an obstacle. Though currently there aren't any obstacles on Chernarus and Utes that require horizontal jumping either.

The "step over" system needs a major overhaul. Currently you can only use it to go over stuff that IRL you'd simply ignore (maybe slow down by a tiny bit), and it makes you slow down to a crawl as if you're trying to climb over a 1.5m high wall. America's Army 3 had taken a good step in the right direction here.