ARMA2 put you off the Army ?

[cartier90 0]

Hmm, surely idealism by the meaning of the word is 'ideal' or best. Something surely to strive for or to put into practice little by little. Not to say its easy, but a less heavy handed approach in conflicts will save money / lives.

[Pyrodox 0]

The problem I personally have with Pacifism, or maybe I should simply say why I personally do not adhere to the ideal of pacifism, is that for it to function as a Pacifist desires it requires that all human beings are of the same mindset.

This can not happen, because humans are all different... But more importantly, it will not happen, simply because as soon as every human being lays their weapons down and there is no more killing, there will be someone driven by his or her own personal greed using that to their advantage.

I don't personally believe the sentiment of what it means to be a soldier or a "warrior" is that of a desire to act violently... Moreso than it is a realization that violence will always be a part of existence. And I do not agree with the idea that one should allow themselves to be the target of violence simply because defending themselves would be "continuing the cycle of violence." If that were to happen, only the most violent would ever survive... Again, in a world where everyone is of the same mindset, it could work. However, realisticly, if everyone is not of the same mindset the pacifist ideal can not exist because it has no defense when faced with it's counter-ideal. A pacifist will always lose against a warmonger. Depending on what you believe in religiously/spiritually, that might make your spirit more "pure" or morally-acceptable in some way, but the pacifist is required to forfeit his mortal existence if ever confronted with violence, therefore in the grand scheme of things (again, unless EVERYONE was a pacifist) the ideal would eventually be destroyed because there would be no one left to carry it on.

However, this goes back to what I said before, about what I believe the true meaning of being a soldier or a warrior is... It's not because it's something you want to do, that type of person stands in the face of conflict, violence and war so that others do not have to. I guess, without the pacifists, without the people who did not want to go to war, the soldier would not be anything of note. However, the warrior fits it's role in the grand scheme of things. People who are willing to wade through Hell, knowingly, so others do not have to.

I also can't personally fathom the idea which most pacifists seem to hold that an act of violence is an act of violence no matter what. To me, violence is a tool. It can, and is often used for evil. Murder, money, oil, whatever. It's far too often used to further someone's personal agenda, and while I abhore the fact that it is, you can't deny it simply is. However, I would be motivated to use violence myself if I had to... I'm not of the mindset that it's better to let someone use violence in an evil manner to detroy others. While "good" and "evil" are relatively subjective terms, if it means that I'm going to hell because I do not allow a criminal to murder my family, then so be it, I would definately use violence against that person without hesitation. Does this mean I have a desire to act violently? Or that I have some inate urge to kill another human being?

I think, in the end, it all comes down to motive. A human being using violence to effect his own agenda, is not the same as a person using violence to defend himself against that act.

[RedRage 0]

6 years with Canadian Forces (para tasked reserve infantry unit) and i cannot say that video games affected my decision in any way. Being a born and raised Russian i could not imagine how any male can become a man without military service. Being an immigrant, i felt that i needed to do something to actually earn my passport. Being a starving student, 50% off my tuition was bonus as well.

BTW, stuff shown in ARMA is not representative of even 0.00001% of day-to-day regular routines (even on combat deployments). For every 15 mins of shooting, there is about 2-4 days of sheer boredom of preparations and rehersals accompanied by very challenging physical and mental stresses (but that is infantry, there are about 150 other trades that get to enjoy hot breakfast, lunch and dinner, and go to the field once a year only to re-new their basic qualifications :))

[cartier90 0]

Sure Pryo, Im just playing devils advocate...Pacifism is best for everyday life as a civilian, not for foreign policy.

Interesting redrage,...I suppose your heritage has a role to play in your move to the army..In the 'west' , and from personal experience , the uk, there really isnt any military culture to speak of. Certainly not as much as in the US. Perhaps there is a correlation with patriotism and respect of the military. People are quite apathetic about it here....

[Brainmagnet 10]

I think saying war is one of the most wonderful things you can experience is being an idealistic idiot. Pacifism doesn't mean surrendering to those that would do violence upon you, it's about not lowering your moral standards and participating in the cycle of violence. I think it is better to die than to compromise myself morally. To me proposing that I kill someone so that I don't die is like asking me to rape some chick so that I don't die (could put it a better way but I'm really sleepy). These are my own beliefs that I only hold myself to (and who knows if I'd stick to them if somebody came at me with a knife) I am not qualified to judge anyone else on this planet but since I'm human I can't help it.

I just think War is total B.S. because honestly, what has anyone in Iraq or Afghanistan ever done to our country? 1.5 million Iraqi civilian's dead? Did they sign up for the war? We gave Saddam his weapons, we gave the Taliban their weapons. Today's allies are tomorrows enemies. I shouldn't say I'm against all violence because life has too many variables therefore it's too complicated for my limited brain to comprehend, but I think I can safely say that I'm against all war. Saddam invaded Kuwait because they were stealing his oil so he thought it was okay to invade Kuwait because he owed them $40 billion dollars for the funding of the Iran-Iraq war and he'd tried to raise oil prices through Opec but Kuwait blocked the move ( Iraq also claimed that their oil was being stolen by Kuwait via slant drilling but that's complicated and probably mostly untrue if not completely). Anyway I'm going to shut up now because I'm ranting. You all know how I feel about War, it's a terrible thing that causes a lot of death and mostly to civilians. The way to avoid war is to not give in to fear or terrorism and education helps combat these things.

[An Fiach 10]

Hmm, surely idealism by the meaning of the word is 'ideal' or best. Something surely to strive for or to put into practice little by little. Not to say its easy, but a less heavy handed approach in conflicts will save money / lives.

Well actually it refers to behaving as if everyone behaves in an ideal manner. I have nothing against people behaving this way, it would be great if everyone did, however that is not the reality and several people who went out to prove the goodness of mankind ended up murdered. Strive for perfection, but be a pragmatist.

---------- Post added at 07:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:45 PM ----------

I think saying war is one of the most wonderful things you can experience is being an idealistic idiot.

Do not talk of that which you know nothing.

Pacifism doesn't mean surrendering to those that would do violence upon you, it's about not lowering your moral standards and participating in the cycle of violence. I think it is better to die than to compromise myself morally. To me proposing that I kill someone so that I don't die is like asking me to rape some chick so that I don't die (could put it a better way but I'm really sleepy). These are my own beliefs that I only hold myself to (and who knows if I'd stick to them if somebody came at me with a knife) I am not qualified to judge anyone else on this planet but since I'm human I can't help it.

You have a very odd mindset in regard to what pacifism is but I am willing to bet a fortune you would not hold to those beliefs. Only those who are frozen with terror refuse to defend their own lives and that is not a conscious choice, however, good luck with that and I hope you never have to find out.

I just think War is total B.S. because honestly, what has anyone in Iraq or Afghanistan ever done to our country? 1.5 million Iraqi civilian's dead? Did they sign up for the war? We gave Saddam his weapons, we gave the Taliban their weapons. Today's allies are tomorrows enemies. I shouldn't say I'm against all violence because life has too many variables therefore it's too complicated for my limited brain to comprehend, but I think I can safely say that I'm against all war. Saddam invaded Kuwait because they were stealing his oil so he thought it was okay to invade Kuwait because he owed them $40 billion dollars for the funding of the Iran-Iraq war and he'd tried to raise oil prices through Opec but Kuwait blocked the move ( Iraq also claimed that their oil was being stolen by Kuwait via slant drilling but that's complicated and probably mostly untrue if not completely). Anyway I'm going to shut up now because I'm ranting. You all know how I feel about War, it's a terrible thing that causes a lot of death and mostly to civilians. The way to avoid war is to not give in to fear or terrorism and education helps combat these things.

I actually got angry at how misinformed you are, then I realized how confused you are as well. I don't think anyone needs a lecture about war being bad except maybe some young ignorant child that has seen violence glorified and never realized his own mortality. Just be glad there are people willing to sacrifice their own lives to protect yours.

[cadmium77 16]

Sure Pryo, Im just playing devils advocate...Pacifism is best for everyday life as a civilian, not for foreign policy.

Interesting redrage,...I suppose your heritage has a role to play in your move to the army..In the 'west' , and from personal experience , the uk, there really isnt any military culture to speak of. Certainly not as much as in the US. Perhaps there is a correlation with patriotism and respect of the military. People are quite apathetic about it here....

That's quite a surprising statement; my own view from the outside would have made me think the contrary of Britain.

[celery 8]

I think it is better to die than to compromise myself morally.

That sure sounds noble but it also implicates that you regard everyone else (especially the wrongdoers) as morally superior to you by valuing their lives more than your own. And what are morals anyway? They're a sense of right and wrong in our brains but if we look beyond that and investigate how exactly the world is a worse place if you resort to violence to save yourself and perhaps other people as well, what is the end score? One evil bastard less, one or more "good" people saved directly or even more indirectly if we hypothesise the bad guy's future evildoing. His cycle of violence has ended, so what concrete negative consequences are there compared to you and others ending up dead?

If you believe that heaven exists, do you think that God couldn't see your actions and motives in context? If I were god, I'd cast apathetic people who let bad things happen to the same place as the people they didn't stop.

To me proposing that I kill someone so that I don't die is like asking me to rape some chick so that I don't die (could put it a better way but I'm really sleepy).

Once again you make no difference between a malicious and innocent individual. Ironically that's what nature (and mankind) has always been about: the brutal thrive if they counter no resistance, and pacifism accommodates that.

[Lauxman 10]

Brainmagnet sounds like a Christian, which is interesting. Religion and desire to reach heaven may be the most divisive issue to ever come to Earth, and has certainly killed more than crazy leaders who do not have a moral compass and only seek to enhance their own power.

[GoOB 0]

The prospect of scrubbing boots, forced marches, muddy fields, angry superiors, early mornings, making beds, maintaining weapons, eating freeze-dried food for months on end, getting shot at, shooting at people and freezing my ass off in a tent along with countless other possible surprises is what put me off my own conscription service. I was slated to go into service last year in the north of Sweden (I19 for you Swedes), but I backed out of it. I regret that now though, should have applied for service in the navy instead.

[Andi 10]

I trained well for NOT being drafted to the mandatory service year in Germany. I managed to bring up 58 kg with 185cm.

Well, now I'm all up 74kg again and happy about not having wasted one year of my life :D

[privateguba 0]

It was a book that took me off the army. I was 8, and my mother took me to her work and left me with a friend in the university's library.

So I go straight to the WW2 books, to see the pictures of Spitfires and Messerschmits. There was a collection of books with some uncensored photos. From the pacific theater and the eastern front.

Think about this: Panzer hood 'ornaments'.

So at 8 I decided I didn't want to go to the army.

With OFP the mission 'After Montignac' was scary at first. After a while, like with any other game, the graphics get old and the AI predictable.

OFP is too 'streamlined', war is too clean. One of the few campaigns that brought some 'horror of war' is 'Operation Freedom III'.

http://ofp.gamepark.cz/index.php?sekce=campaigns

The last one at the bottom. Play as a civilian and try to survive the genocide.

[An Fiach 10]

Brainmagnet sounds like a Christian, which is interesting. Religion and desire to reach heaven may be the most divisive issue to ever come to Earth, and has certainly killed more than crazy leaders who do not have a moral compass and only seek to enhance their own power.

Actually you are quite wrong, it is more correct to say that crazy leaders have used religion to manipulate people into killing people to enhance their own power.

---------- Post added at 10:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 PM ----------

It was a book that took me off the army. I was 8, and my mother took me to her work and left me with a friend in the university's library.

So I go straight to the WW2 books, to see the pictures of Spitfires and Messerschmits. There was a collection of books with some uncensored photos. From the pacific theater and the eastern front.

Think about this: Panzer hood 'ornaments'.

So at 8 I decided I didn't want to go to the army.

With OFP the mission 'After Montignac' was scary at first. After a while, like with any other game, the graphics get old and the AI predictable.

OFP is too 'streamlined', war is too clean. One of the few campaigns that brought some 'horror of war' is 'Operation Freedom III'.

http://ofp.gamepark.cz/index.php?sekce=campaigns

The last one at the bottom. Play as a civilian and try to survive the genocide.

That sounds intense.

[Scrub 0]

Brainmagnet sounds like a Christian, which is interesting. Religion and desire to reach heaven may be the most divisive issue to ever come to Earth, and has certainly killed more than crazy leaders who do not have a moral compass and only seek to enhance their own power.

Wrong my friend (and Anfiach). In the past century alone the athiestic leaders trying to crush religons have murdered far more than the crazy times of the religons themselves -China, Russia, Nazis, Korea, Rowanda, the list goes on- But there are a couple 100's of millions in this list alone.. One (really active) century. Google it up.

I'm now old enough to be past the worry of Draft for my country, if it was ever envoked. If I had these games when I was looking to be a warrant officer flying Apaches, I think it would have increased the desire of the challenge. Didn't go for it anyway, there were only two slots open nationwide, and I'm not THAT good of a student :D.

[Brainmagnet 10]

Thanks scrub, was going to mention Mao, Lenin, Stalin etc. Also Anfiach since you say I shouldn't speak on what I know nothing about then please enlighten me about what is Wonderful about war. Also please give me specifics as to how I'm misinformed because I don't want to be misinformed and if you are able to correct that I would like you to do so instead of say I'm misinformed without telling me the details.

[Lauxman 10]

I wouldn't call all of those "atheistic" leaders.

I can't see religion as anything but a tool to manipulate people in a vast empire. Christianity certainly has been ever since the Council of Nicea.

My point is, religion should be taken like fairy tales-interesting stories that promote moral values and ethics. Instead they turn into cults that completely miss the point. And that religion is a very divisive issue, to the point of war.

[Brainmagnet 10]

Any belief system (religious or not) that is intolerant is dangerous. This goes for people that are racist as well as people that use political correctness to put shackles around our wrists (I'm looking at you ADL). I think Christians can be as intolerant as atheists. Personally I think the best thing I can do is keep an open mind and not take away the rights of the others to think and say whatever they please. I really love the game Arma2 and I think it represents war better than any other game I can think of for several reasons. Friendly fire for one, and they actually have a bunch of civilians around (not enough of course but civilians aren't the focus of a military *GAME*) the sounds of incoming bullets cracking overhead is also amazing and very immersive. I have respect for people in uniform and I've considered joining myself (obviously in a non-combat role, most likely a psychologist that would listen and help soldiers sort their emotions), but I will most likely complete my computer Science degree and hopefully get into A.I. programming. Damn it! excuse my ranting again. :jump_clap:

[cartier90 0]

This has only a tenuous link but defo worth a read....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/hello-mum-this-is-going-to-be-hard-for-you-to-read-1753008.html

[Herbal Influence 10]

Americas Army was sponsored with about a 50 Mio. Dollars by the US government to fascinate young people for war. Films like Top Gun are sponsored by the US government to have the same effect.

Blue skies, good looking heroes and hot women.

Men with "character" - heroes.

Women with boobs.

"Sharp", expensive weapons.

But one thing is never shown in all it's reality:

The dying of men, of a victim.

It's not shown in BI games too.

The reason is:

Nobody really wants to see that. Nobody who does not suffer from a mental disease would pay for that.

The truth is:

They rarely die immediately after one shot.

They only begin to die.

They cry.

You can even watch people trying to put back their own brain mass in their demolished skull or their inner organs back into their corps with their hands and .... crawlingly try to hide somewhere.

You can find books about this. Not in the public library.

But in books about war medicine and catastrophic medicine.

The whole power of the corps is put into action to survive - anyhow, anyway.

And dying after being shot at takes it time.

It's so cruel to watch.

I know one person personally who got a long knife all through his lower body - he showed up from hospital with just a two small band-aids the other day. Nothing had been hurt but his skin- and some skins inside his body.

The knife went through his whole body. One band-aid on his back, one on his sixpacks.

I know one person personally who survived a bomb attack on a warship:

His comrade lost the whole lower part of his corps lying a two metres away from him. That dying comrade grinned at him, while he was dying.

He than had to clean the ship.

He tossed the inner organs with his boots from the rail into the sea.

@Lauxman:

There is indeed only little hope for you. ;-)

Though I don't want to believe that Obama will betray the world - like Bush did - e.g. about weapons of mass destruction in the Irak.

But what a small hope since the saying goes: Truth is the first victim of war.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Herbal Influence
mistype

[An Fiach 10]

Thanks scrub, was going to mention Mao, Lenin, Stalin etc. Also Anfiach since you say I shouldn't speak on what I know nothing about then please enlighten me about what is Wonderful about war. Also please give me specifics as to how I'm misinformed because I don't want to be misinformed and if you are able to correct that I would like you to do so instead of say I'm misinformed without telling me the details.

As far as you being misinformed I would suggest you research instead of swallowing the lies that the media has sold you about the middle east, if I try to answer, I'll end up writing a novel.

As far as what is wonderful about war? Well I will tell you that only in war will you witness the most selfless acts, the greatest sacrifice and the greatest love for your fellow man that is possible for a human to express. But I also said it is the most terrible, so don't get ahead of yourself.

---------- Post added at 10:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 AM ----------

Americas Army was sponsored with about a 50 Mio. Dollars by the US government to fascinate young people for war. Films like Top Gun are sponsored by the US government to have the same effect.

Blue skies, good looking heroes and hot women.

Men with "character" - heroes.

Women with boobs.

"Sharp", expensive weapons.

But one thing is never shown in all it's reality:

The dying of men, of a victim.

It's not shown in BI games too.

The reason is:

Nobody really wants to see that. Nobody who does not suffer from a mental disease would pay for that.

The truth is:

They rarely die immediately after one shot.

They only begin to die.

They cry.

You can even watch people trying to put back their own brain mass or their inner organs back into their head and .... hide somewhere.

You can find books about this. Not in the public library.

But in books about war medicine and catastrophic medicine.

The whole power of the corps is put into action to survive - anyhow, anyway.

And dying after being shot at takes it time.

It's so cruel to watch.

I know one person personally who got a long knife all through his lower body - he showed up from hospital with just a two small band-aids the other day. Nothing had been hurt but his skin- and some skins inside his body.

The knife went through his whole body. One band-aid on his back, one on his sixpacks.

I know one person personally who survived a bomb attack on a warship:

His comrade lost the whole lower part of his corps lying a two metres away from him. That dying comrade grinned at him, while he was dying.

He than had to clean the ship.

He tossed the inner organs with his boots from the rail into the sea.

@Lauxman:

There is indeed only little hope for you. ;-)

Though I don't want to believe that Obama will betray the world - like Bush did - e.g. about weapons of mass destruction in the Irak.

But what a small hope since the saying goes: Truth is the first victim of war.

I think your user name explains a lot.

[Herbal Influence 10]

Yeah, anfiach, thank you for your comment.

It also explains a lot.

I gave two examples where a victim didn't suffer like hell and endlessly just to show that these are so strange exceptions to reality that they are close to being unbelievable.

Reality delivers exceptions, is my point, but endless suffering while dying is normal, not an exception.

Edited July 20, 2009 by Herbal Influence

[Baff1 0]

It's the look in their eyes mate.

The terror.

That same terror that one day ourselves and everyone we love will share.

What a pleasant thread this is.

No army for me. I had fun with it at school until they tried to make me give up my holidays to go on deployments. That pretty much canned it for me.

Not up for it.

[Brainmagnet 10]

@Anfiach

ok I can tell you the last source I believe is the media. I have no idea where you got the idea that I got my information from the media. I trust historians as much as I can and my own critical thinking. I compare and contrast as many sources as I can come across on any particular given subject that I'm interested in, and I check sources with and without bias across the spectrum. I don't think any source is 100% accurate and I try to scrutinize all information I take in as much as I can.

Even if you don't want to write me a novel I will settle for the super abridged version gladly.

I highly doubt the statement: "that only in war will you ever witness the most selfless acts" not to say that there aren't a shortage of people that wouldn't jump on a live grenade to save their squad (You have to be some kind of brave to be a soldier), just saying there are plenty of selfless people all over the world (many of them pacifists mind you) that perform selfless acts.

"greatest sacrifice and the greatest love for your fellow man that is possible to express" I disagree.

I also did not get ahead of myself, perfectly aware that you mentioned most terrible as well.

[Scrub 0]

Well, I don't want to go too far here Brainmagnet, but he does seem have a habit of telling people he has no control over what to do for whatever reason.

The comment about greatest sacrifice and love is tempered by his other statement about all the nastys in war. Basically the same as saying 'push a person down in 1000ft of water and you'll see the most bouyancy a human can achieve' one of the positive effects when shoved into a horrible situation. Threat of terminal actions does not create peace, you cannot legislate kindness (insurgents anyone?). All armies and weapons can do is create environments to slew the hearts and minds of people.. Again they can create environments of stability and coerce, or allow, the people into dialog.

[cadmium77 16]

It was a book that took me off the army. I was 8, and my mother took me to her work and left me with a friend in the university's library.

So I go straight to the WW2 books, to see the pictures of Spitfires and Messerschmits. There was a collection of books with some uncensored photos. From the pacific theater and the eastern front.

Think about this: Panzer hood 'ornaments'.

So at 8 I decided I didn't want to go to the army.

With OFP the mission 'After Montignac' was scary at first. After a while, like with any other game, the graphics get old and the AI predictable.

OFP is too 'streamlined', war is too clean. One of the few campaigns that brought some 'horror of war' is 'Operation Freedom III'.

http://ofp.gamepark.cz/index.php?sekce=campaigns

The last one at the bottom. Play as a civilian and try to survive the genocide.

I hope they port that over to Arma II. That sounds like a great idea.