Uss liberty attack

[Guest Scooby]

Mistake or not. The fact that Israelis shot livecrafts from close range just shows that they have always cared very little about rules of war.

Makes you to think if those "incidents" where israel constantly kills civilians in palestine are really accidents.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I think this is one of the wierdest cases that has ever ocurred.

How could the IAF/IDF Forces mistake a intelligence ship without ANY heavy weapons (and therefore could not have shelled Israel even if it wanted to), for a ship that did? How could they have missed the US flag?

Supposing it was deliberate, what did they stand to gain? The explanation that they wanted to continue in their campaigns unimpeded is kind of weak, considering there were many other ways the US was gathering intelligence at the time, not to mention, if that was the case, wouldnt they have made a more directed effort to sink the ship, and kill the crew? who knows, maybe Israel realised that killing allies would just cause more harm than good, and ordered an abort? So, and I quote a great man: "WTF??"

Why would Israel attack a country that at the time, was really the only country that would go to bat for them (Hell, its still like that)?

And the fact that Israels explanations for the event have been pretty scattered and contradictory, doesnt help their case too much. However, they did make reparations, which is a step towards fixing this.

Another wierd thing is, that the USA wants to talk about it (almost) even less than Israel. The captain of the Liberty got the Medal of Honor, which is presented by the President traditionally. This captains Medal was pinned on him in a back room of the Pentagon by the Secretary of the Navy. The Liberty crew is one of the most highly decorated in Navy history, but the US government has never investigated the attack.

Is this not making sense to anyone else?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 16 2002,20:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How could they have missed the US flag?<span id='postcolor'>

From the article The USS Liberty: Cased Closed:

Making two passes at 3,000 feet, formation commander Capt. Spector (IDF records do not provide pilots' first names) reckoned that the ship was a "Z" or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy. Spector then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. The answer was "Negative." Nor were there any distinguishing marks other than some "black letters" painted on the hull.

Other questions are answered there, too.

[Wobble 1]

was that before or after they blew the first one off? because the 2nd one was bigger, and there were pictures of it.. taken during the attack.

[theavonlady 2]

Wobble, what are you referring to?

[Wobble 1]

when I was watching the Docu on it there war a few stills taken DURING the air attack, and in 1 of them you can see the jet flying away (after straf I guess because it is climbing up and away from low level) and in the foreground you can see a US flag.

[theavonlady 2]

Could the pic have been taken after the attack and after the mistake was recongnized, which be after this occurred:

While Egyptian naval ships were known to disguise their identities with Western markings, they usually displayed Arabic letters and numbers only. The fact that the ship had Western markings led Rabin to fear that it was Soviet, and he immediately called off the jets. Two IAF Hornet helicopters were sent to look for survivors - Spector had reported seeing men overboard - while the torpedo boat squadron was ordered to hold its fire pending further attempts at identification. Though that order was recorded in the torpedo boat's log, Oren claimed he never received it.26 It was now 2:20 in the afternoon; twenty-four minutes would pass before the squadron made contact with the Liberty.

During that interval, the ship's original flag, having been shredded during the attack, was replaced by a larger (7-by-13-foot) holiday ensign.

I'm again quoting from The USS Liberty: Case Closed.

[theavonlady 2]

Well, this messed me up. I missed 2 minutes of CSI and now I didn't understand the ending.

[Placebo 29]

You have taste M'Lady, I love CSI, one of my fave shows of the moment

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Has anyone ever heard of "buck fever"?

This is when you are deerhunting, straining your eyes looking for a buck to shoot, and because what your mind wants to see a buck, your eyes will, ocasionally, modify what the eyes really see, and you may end up shooting anything from a fencepost, a doe, or your buddy.

http://www.rockdove.com/bukfever.html

here is a pretty general explanation of buck fever, the religious references towards the end are coincidental.

Anyhow, what I mean is...

These pilots, what was going through their head?

Their country had just been attacked, and they were pissed off and looking for a fight. I know Id be. Maybe they thought they saw no flag, and convinced themselves into thinking it was an enemy ship? Same witht he subsequent attackers, they wanted to kill someone who they thought was attacking their country.

Just a little thought on the issue, I have no idea whether instances of "buck fever" have occurred in military personnel leading up to friendly fire incidents, so feel free to smack me down on this one if you want.

[RedRogue 0]

There has long been held the idea that an American submarine had been shadowing the U.S.S. Liberty and took photographs and film of the attack thru its periscope. Here is an article making that statement.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0697/9706019.htm

However even if such film where taken, I highly doubt it will ever be released if it hasn't been destroyed already.

[Wobble 1]

well.. why would a US sub shadow one of its own ships? doesent make any sense,

[RedRogue 0]

You could easily come up with an endless list of valid reasons.

And you could easily come up with an endless list of why it wouldn't be there.

[LordZach 0]

well my answer would be to protect it since the destroyer was denied but i dont know why they wouldnt have fired except to prevent a war

[Sandman 0]

I dont know this story from more than I read in this thread (I havent read all the articles from the links U provided) but I just wonder what the U.S ship was doing out there (alone, or "shadowed" by one of its own subs).

Some sort of aircover would should have been dispatched if the ship was anywhere near the Isreali-Arab conflict that was going on at the time...or was it conducting some sort of intelligence mission for the U.S?

Guess I have to read some about this accident...

[Wobble 1]

the 6th fleet was only 450miles away.. relativley close,

and it was an intel ship and it was believe any of the Arab's ships would not risk an attack given the fact that if they did the US would use the 6th fleet on them... and all of these assumptions turned out to be totally true.. the possability of Isreal attacking it wasnt even in the wildest "what if" stories.. afterall the ship was there gathering radio and other com intellegence FOR isreal..

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Its just so damn wierd... maybe they should make a bad movie about it, so then we can have a right to be confused

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Mar. 17 2002,01:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">afterall the ship was there gathering radio and other com intellegence FOR isreal..<span id='postcolor'>

Specifically:

Though the exact nature of its mission remains classified, the Liberty was most likely sent to track the movements of Egyptian troops and their Soviet advisors in Sinai - hence the need for Arabic and Russian translators.

(LBJ, Box 1-10, The USS Liberty: Department of Defense Press Release, June 8, 1967; Box 19: CINCUSNAVEUR Order, May 30, 1967; Box 18, Joint Chiefs of Staff: Military Actions - Straits of Tiran, May 25, 1967; Box 104/107, The National Military Command Center: Attack on the USS Liberty, June 9, 1967.)

It remains unclear whether such information was being gathered for Israel's potential benefit or strictly for the US, as 1967 in the ME was as good a time as any for the US to monitor the USSR during the Cold War.

[Wobble 1]

yea, good point.. but stands to reason that since the US is Isreal's allie and the war was going on that the ship was probably aiding in SOME way.. not just ofically itting there for.. *cough* "shits and giggles" (had to use grampa's term)

Granted it is a good excuse to tryout/test some info gathering systems on the ruskies.

[Longinius 1]

"well.. why would a US sub shadow one of its own ships? doesent make any sense,"

According to articles the subs were not supposed to be there. They had a secret mission and could not reveal their position. They could not even use their radios.

As for the Liberty, its mission was to look for Russian envolvement in the conflict.

I dont understand how a pilot could miss the flag AND see black markings...when the markings were WHITE.

[Wobble 1]

According to articles the subs were not supposed to be there. They had a secret mission and could not reveal their position

subs are not allowed in international waters?

[Tovarish 0]

Of course they are, and Soviet Tu-95's were allowed in Egypt as long as that government wanted them there, but the Soviets didn't want to admit that those planes were under their control...that was the USS Liberty's main mission, to intercept radio signals sent by the pilots of Tu-95's stationed in Egypt to Moscow to confirm that those were Soviet planes. It's how the Cold War was, neither side wanted the other to know what they had, were or how many. The presence of the subs was parfectly legal, but the US didn't want Russia to know they were there.

[Longinius 1]

"subs are not allowed in international waters?"

Ofcourse they are. But they were not officially there. They were on covert missions and therefor they could not reveal their position.

[Wobble 1]

ahh, I see that makes sense..