Opinion/Breakthru on Bugged AI Crackpot shooters

[cackle 0]

After alot of people whining about AI shooting thru tree's, buildings, and even terrain... and experiencing a couple hundred hours of play under EVO myself, i have to concur it is indeed going on..

I may have had a breakthrough on this though...

First of all those complaining about shooting through tree's, I don't totally agree.. it may happen from time to time, but for most part, it's lack of discipline on you as a soldier trying to play the game as a FPS. Or not recognizing who exactly shot you and where it was when he pulled the trigger.

I am not going to tell you how to be more effective in combat, thats for you to learn.. However I will give you the best tip, that will make the game more enjoyable, although mentally you may think its boring... SLOW DOWN, move slower, get off that stupid run button.. Nuff said. You are a soldier fighting an army, not another player, they are communicating and can track movement just as you can with your teamates.

Now for the rest of the complaintants.. After hundreds of hours of playing EVO, typically in the morning as I am the server admin getting the server rolling.. I get to fight rambo style (solo me vs army). What I have discoverd is very interesting and can now be looked in most closer...

When people complan about being shot thru buildings, they are usually talking about tanks, which is true as I have seen them pound many bullets thru buildings as I reload my launchers in there when possible. They also seem to be able to straff with me as i move inside, knowing pinpoint location

Anyhow, lets skip to the chase, I think the real problem is with AI CREW members ... I have yet to see a Sniper, Machine Gunner, Rifleman, Squad Leader, etc etc, shoot me from a goofy position.. However, now 10 times just this morning.. I am getting canned by super shooting crew members and their SUPER SNIPING PISTOLS.. I have repeatably seem them one shot me from 250m with one pistol bullet while prone and behind hilly terrain, I have consistantly being killed by crew members only and having not much problem with the other players when I am playing in my "patient" mode.. I can have 25 AI in front of me, one crew member behind me.. I go for the crew member and he wins and usually i never even see him visually. I go for the others, i normally do some heavy damage.

These crew members are also the same ones that get out of a tank and one pop you a second after you pull the trigger and hit the tank...

Anyhow, its no surpise to me now, that 2 and 2 come together, tanks shooting thru walls, and insane vision/tracking.. crew members one shotting with pistols, always non visable.. 2+2=4.. I bet they are bugged or something along those lines and maybe should be looked at more closely by the dev team

As for players, If you get a chance, try to dwelve into this deeper and take a look to see if crew members are the ones ruining your day.

Sincerely,

Cackle

[Squigibo 10]

good insight. going to make up a quick mission with a crew member only and putmyself in some weird places and see whaz up.

[jw custom 56]

Well i see AI proning and shooting through bushes and high grass, a human in that exact same position would only be able to more or less shoot in blind. Yes i have seen this many times through death cam and while flying around as a crow i have seen many team members getting shot by AI in positions they really can't see jack from!

I really hope this will be fixed in near future as i would like to be able to hide in the grass! I really like this game and have very few issues with it, but this one is a bit annoying.

Edited July 14, 2009 by JW Custom

[An Fiach 10]

Make a repeatable mission so it can be tested further by those that do that sort of thing.

As for shooting through grass or bushes... I dunno, grass and bushes don't stop bullets, I recommend doing the same thing for such issues. It gets them fixed faster if they don't have to spend hours trying to replicate something that may or may not be happening. Remember it from the Devs point of view, for every legitimate complaint , there are 10 more from people who just suck at the game, and they have to test every one of them or else they miss fixing the bugs that really do exist.

[Alex72 1]

I cant say i experienced this yet. Being shot through buildings that is. I remember some friends though that complained about this and it came down to that they werent used to (ArmA) bullets richocheting from the ground/walls, and also that bullets that had penetrated some thinner cover they were behind changed direction and killed them.

Im not saying its not going on in ARMA2, but so far after many hours of play i havent noticed. Will investigate further for sure.

Alex

[jw custom 56]

As for shooting through grass or bushes... I dunno, grass and bushes don't stop bullets, I recommend doing the same thing for such issues.

If you read my post you would realize that i said:

Well i see AI proning and shooting through bushes and high grass, a human in that exact same position would only be able to more or less shoot in blind.

The current AI can prone in grass and still pinpoint your location and kill you within seconds, if a human takes that same position they would have to shoot in blind and be lucky to hit anything!

P.S. I have never tried getting shot through buildings or grass!

[cackle 0]

Hey Soldier, If there's tree's in front of you and you think there is enemy there.. Why are you staying exposed? Im bugging out to a better spot.. :P~~

Let's try to stay on topic and squash this....

I am taking a wild guess, not understandng the code and all, but perhaps the AI Tanks need some supersonic vision or something to be effective in game... and the crew member stays in this mode when exiting tank... the crew member somehow keeps incredible vision and even aim statistics that the tank had? Is this a plausable idea on how it works? All I can do is just sit back and fire guesses. Maybe you have some guesses of your own?

[An Fiach 10]

If you read my post you would realize that i said:

The current AI can prone in grass and still pinpoint your location and kill you within seconds, if a human takes that same position they would have to shoot in blind and be lucky to hit anything!

P.S. I have never tried getting shot through buildings or grass!

You stated you see them prone in the grass, they can still shoot that way. If you are implying that they were prone the entire time and were able to see your friends approach, that is different and still requires a repeatable mission that can consistently provide those results making it 'easy' for the causes of the issue to be pinpointed. I didn't say it was not happening, only that you should submit the repeatable mission. I am not implying in your case that you are full of BS as that is an assumption without fact, but we have seen many claims of this nature in here before that were subsequently debunked. In light of that, not only would making a mission assist the Devs in addressing the issue, it would also serve to preserve your credibility with the community (i.e. it won't be called into question by others)

---------- Post added at 09:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 AM ----------

As to tanks firing through buildings, I would venture that is an issue of set penetration values. Then you would have to determine, the weapon type/caliber vs wall thickness/density and then determine whether it is intended (in the game code) for that particular round to penetrate that particular object type.

The pistols issue warrants testing and is easily repeatable

[jw custom 56]

You stated you see them prone in the grass, they can still shoot that way. If you are implying that they were prone the entire time and were able to see your friends approach, that is different and still requires a repeatable mission that can consistently provide those results making it 'easy' for the causes of the issue to be pinpointed. I didn't say it was not happening, only that you should submit the repeatable mission. I am not implying in your case that you are full of BS as that is an assumption without fact, but we have seen many claims of this nature in here before that were subsequently debunked. In light of that, not only would making a mission assist the Devs in addressing the issue, it would also serve to preserve your credibility with the community (i.e. it won't be called into question by others)

I stated that if a human took same position at same location they had to shoot blindly as their view is blocked by grass, bushes and other foliage ;)

This has been mentioned many times by many members, i have experienced this many many times in many different missions. Like i said, when i die and fly around as a crow i see AI shooting at team members through all kind of foliage. Yes i am aware that you can shoot through grass etc. but when i prone in the grass and have an idea about where the enemy is and shoot in that direction i gotta be lucky to actually hit/kill them! Even when kneeling it can be hard to get an overview.

[An Fiach 10]

Perhaps the thing with the crew members is something to do with that mission because in the editor I cannot get one to fire on me with a pistol farther than 50m. Also important to note that by default in the editor crew members have carbine type rifles.

[Squigibo 10]

I've just setup a one on one with a crewman in the editor and they do have a small carbine of some sort. I would shoot from one end of a small building and he would turn to face me and go prone. I would then run around the backside of the building and peek out the corner and he would still be facing where I was. I can't replicate him autotracking me.

[kororas 10]

I was under the impression from another thread on this forum that the AI is using sound rather than vision to pinpoint enemies. The problem with this was that they have superman stlye hearing capability which more often than not causes crackpot shooting.

In MP i usually end up waiting for some other poor sod to attack first then whilst the ai is distracted i go in for the kill lol

Chance of suvival is a bit higher that way.

[An Fiach 10]

I stated that if a human took same position at same location they had to shoot blindly as their view is blocked by grass, bushes and other foliage ;)

This has been mentioned many times by many members, i have experienced this many many times in many different missions. Like i said, when i die and fly around as a crow i see AI shooting at team members through all kind of foliage. Yes i am aware that you can shoot through grass etc. but when i prone in the grass and have an idea about where the enemy is and shoot in that direction i gotta be lucky to actually hit/kill them! Even when kneeling it can be hard to get an overview.

I don't experience this, which is why it is important to have an experiment that is repeatable exactly for more than one person, so that they can see that the results are consistent. Just stating it doesn't solve anything, isn't consistent, and isn't proof. You think I am attacking you here, but really I'm trying to help you. The Devs know that 95% of complaints is BS from whiney people. Problem is, they have to look at each one to figure it out, some are obvious, others not so much. When you go through the process of making the mission, making video, screen shots, whatever, you are saving the Devs work, this moves the issue up the list to be fixed much faster and saves them time wading through the BS to find the legit stuff.

---------- Post added at 10:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 AM ----------

I was under the impression from another thread on this forum that the AI is using sound rather than vision to pinpoint enemies. The problem with this was that they have superman stlye hearing capability which more often than not causes crackpot shooting.

In MP i usually end up waiting for some other poor sod to attack first then whilst the ai is distracted i go in for the kill lol

Chance of suvival is a bit higher that way.

That is indeed a possible cause. I've been one-shotted before but I've also had bullets sprayed all around me, this is why it is important to have tests than can replicate exact situations and bring verifiable results.

[jw custom 56]

I was under the impression from another thread on this forum that the AI is using sound rather than vision to pinpoint enemies. The problem with this was that they have superman stlye hearing capability which more often than not causes crackpot shooting.

If thats the case AI really need to dramatically have their hearing toned down :p

[cackle 0]

I guess also note, I am playing evolution where the army is of many many types and numbers and highly communicating I reckon... So maybe try again with 50 others on the battlefied and put a crew somewhere off to the side you can hunt

[Alex72 1]

AI do hear you within a certain range. More movement and they hear more. At least true in ArmA and i dont think its any different in ARMA2 apart from that values can be different (bit off and in need of tweak).

And yes big caliber enough go through walls. Even corners of buildings like in real life. So hiding at the corner of a house while a 50cal firing at you from a vehicle isnt smart and will get you killed. And if someone dont know that this happens in real life as well i can understand why that someone says "WTF! i got shot through the wall!!??". :)

Even thinner house walls can get penetrated by big enough caliber im sure. Havent tested this myself or thaught about it yet but heard it is so. I always had this in the back of my mind while playing, and maybe thats why me personally have never felt i was cheated by getting shot through a wall.

Alex

[Squigibo 10]

If thats the case AI really need to dramatically have their hearing toned down :p

I was running all over and didn't see the AI turn towards me and I was prolly 20 feet away from him on other side of building. I think the AI just communicates alot and quicker than we can spot them.

[cackle 0]

Hrmph, here it more very interesting news... I was playing still this same game.. and this one particular unit had me pinned down for an hour.. I couldnt find him although i had a red dot in general area, i scouted him for nearly 60 minutes with three deaths.. even 203 spamming and couldnt make him move or anything... So i gave up and continued clearing the rest of area... I came back from a different direction, just basically running out there to get killed to see where this guy was.. Couldnt find him.. i did find an officer in that area, which is 20 points to capture him in Evolution. so i captured him... immediately after capturing him.. i turn around to see an enemy right smack there in the middle of the road i suspected him to be... he one shotted me instantly.. and guess what... HE WAS A CREWMAN AND BLEEDING FROM THE HEAD... :/

It's as if he was invisible but for some reason he popped onto screen when i captured officer... very bizzarre..

At this point i would like to add the other bug i notice that is bizarre.. and thats been wavy terrain... since the new nvidia drivers came out, my terrain sometimes rolls like a tidal wave as i move forward, and i notice if i go into a crevace and prepare a m136, smaw shot, i come up the crevae and shoot... now the enemy fire comes in, i crawl back into the crevace.. but to no avail, its as if the crevace was filled in and they keep firing until im dead, cuz i can't get under the terrain i used.. very bizzare, maybe its combination of stupid stuff causing it all??

To sum up what i am saying, maybe i couldnt see him because the crewman got "under" the terrain... hence why i see them prone killing with ease.. if you are under terrain, i guess no terrain can block anything.. thus ez kills for the crewman....

update: dam crewman killed me agian (rifle) lol... while prone of course.. tracking me walking along walls

Edited July 14, 2009 by cackle
add sum

[jw custom 56]

I was running all over and didn't see the AI turn towards me and I was prolly 20 feet away from him on other side of building. I think the AI just communicates alot and quicker than we can spot them.

Huh not sure what your talking about :p

My main issue is AI shooting you through foliage where a human in same position wouldn't be able to see anything. Some say it's because they can hear you, but when your like 100m away AI shouldn't be able to pinpoint you based on hearing.

[An Fiach 10]

Hrmph, here it more very interesting news... I was playing still this same game.. and this one particular unit had me pinned down for an hour.. I couldnt find him although i had a red dot in general area, i scouted him for nearly 60 minutes with three deaths.. even 203 spamming and couldnt make him move or anything... So i gave up and continued clearing the rest of area... I came back from a different direction, just basically running out there to get killed to see where this guy was.. Couldnt find him.. i did find an officer in that area, which is 20 points to capture him in Evolution. so i captured him... immediately after capturing him.. i turn around to see an enemy right smack there in the middle of the road i suspected him to be... he one shotted me instantly.. and guess what... HE WAS A CREWMAN AND BLEEDING FROM THE HEAD... :/

It's as if he was invisible but for some reason he popped onto screen when i captured officer... very bizzarre..

At this point i would like to add the other bug i notice that is bizarre.. and thats been wavy terrain... since the new nvidia drivers came out, my terrain sometimes rolls like a tidal wave as i move forward, and i notice if i go into a crevace and prepare a m136, smaw shot, i come up the crevae and shoot... now the enemy fire comes in, i crawl back into the crevace.. but to no avail, its as if the crevace was filled in and they keep firing until im dead, cuz i can't get under the terrain i used.. very bizzare, maybe its combination of stupid stuff causing it all??

To sum up what i am saying, maybe i couldnt see him because the crewman got "under" the terrain... hence why i see them prone killing with ease.. if you are under terrain, i guess no terrain can block anything.. thus ez kills for the crewman....

update: dam crewman killed me agian (rifle) lol... while prone of course.. tracking me walking along walls

taken the wrong medication? :p very strange

[Eclipse4349 0]

Well i see AI proning and shooting through bushes and high grass, a human in that exact same position would only be able to more or less shoot in blind. Yes i have seen this many times through death cam and while flying around as a crow i have seen many team members getting shot by AI in positions they really can't see jack from!

I really hope this will be fixed in near future as i would like to be able to hide in the grass! I really like this game and have very issues with it, but this one is a bit annoying.

Agreed. Great game, but things like this really need tweaking!

[jw custom 56]

update: dam crewman killed me agian (rifle) lol... while prone of course.. tracking me walking along walls

I have tried similar in a mission i made...

There's a T-90 that knows exactly where i am after 1st shot is fired in mission, even when walking all they way around the city it's located in it still shoots me the second i'm in line of fire, that be from 50-500m+

So only way to defeat it is to just peak out enough from a house corner that i can see the very end of it and take it out by hitting that little visible part :p

[chaplainDMK 10]

I have tried similar in a mission i made...

There's a T-90 that knows exactly where i am after 1st shot is fired in mission, even when walking all they way around the city it's located in it still shoots me the second i'm in line of fire, that be from 50-500m+

So only way to defeat it is to just peak out enough from a house corner that i can see the very end of it and take it out by hitting that little visible part :p

Maybe its superman with his X-Ray vision!!!

:yay::yay:

[cackle 0]

Final Assumption,

OK, have to go to work so I am done debugging for the day.. My final assumption is that Crewman have supersonic spotting or hearing or whatever, they track you with no problem knowing where you are at ALL times, in buildings or not in buildings.. i sneak around and see all infantry standing around, guarding an area or patrolling, but those PESKY crewman always know where i am, always get the first shot on me... and usually always prone...

[Emberwolf 0]

It may be that whatever situational awareness bonus the crewman had from vehicle optics/equipment use may not be stopped as it should when they hop out. Those crewman may technically be running around with telescopic vision. :) Freaky.