Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
[frl]myke

.mdl (FS2004) to .p3d?

Recommended Posts

I know a number of the Alphasim products quite well, I do contract work for IRIS Simulations (one of their competitors). Standard flight simulators models have a first LOD of at least 20,000 polygons. They also have many, many more textures because FSX has a default limitation of a texture size of 1024 x 1024. This means you will have to remap the textures, otherwise you will end up with many, many textures. In FSX, it is not uncommon to have 10 textures for the external aircraft. A 20k polygon model, with 10 seperate maps equals a huge amount of texture verts (probably over 50k). That will not load in ArmA1 or ArmA2, and anywhere close to that limit will not run without a massive impact on performance.

The best advice I can give, use such models for reference, and recreate it by extruding geometry over the top. This gives you maximum control over the level of detail you want to show, as FSX models were designed for entirely different purposes. I use this method when taking extremely high resolution assets and creating ArmA variants from them.

While many people say it is "easy" to port something ripped using a 3d render ripping programme, I have yet to see an even semi-decent ripped addon completed "easily". Gnat's piper, I would argue, is relatively bug free but I best many days of work went into that.

How 3d Ripping programmes work is they take what is in memory for use by the Video card in rendering a scene, and dumps it all into a 3ds file. This means you are receiving the file progressed by the programme and the video card. The video card breaks the model up based on materials, smoothing, and textures. Welding the verts will help you somewhat, but not completely. As Gnat noted, you video card does extremely funky stuff with models and textures to render a scene.

Comments that it is "easy" are misleading and represent a gross, complete, misunderstanding of the process used by videocards to render scenes and what a 3d ripper actually does.

If you want to make good addons, use such rips as reference, stick to polygon budgets, and re-create the models to best support the engine you are developing them on.

Edited by Rocket

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, great advice Rocket.

And yes, spend MANY weeks (not days) getting that Piper into a semi-suitable condition for release.

It probably would have been easier to start from scratch using the ripped model shape and scale, IF I was any good at using any other 3D package other than Oxygen :(

Just a note, did you select all vertices, then WELD them using .001 as the tolerance then apply the smooth modifier and select prevent indirect smoothing

I've seen no Weld option, I assume you mean "Merge near". Yes, used it but as I said, there can be some serious problems also created. Sometimes you don't want certain bits merged with others. eg windscreen attached to dash or other. Double sided faces are also a real pain in the arse.

The source file would be better, but sometimes the author doesn't have that in a suitable file format either.

To Rockets points, I generally selected some FSX models to convert based on Poly count, Interior detail, true "usefulness" to ArmA (a military sim. (with Civilian elements missing) ) and obviously last being getting authors permission.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gnat;1372019']Yes' date=' great advice Rocket.

And yes, spend MANY weeks (not days) getting that Piper into a semi-suitable condition for release.

It probably would have been easier to start from scratch using the ripped model shape and scale, [i']IF[/i] I was any good at using any other 3D package other than Oxygen :(

I've seen no Weld option, I assume you mean "Merge near". Yes, used it but as I said, there can be some serious problems also created. Sometimes you don't want certain bits merged with others. eg windscreen attached to dash or other. Double sided faces are also a real pain in the arse.

The source file would be better, but sometimes the author doesn't have that in a suitable file format either.

To Rockets points, I generally selected some FSX models to convert based on Poly count, Interior detail, true "usefulness" to ArmA (a military sim. (with Civilian elements missing) ) and obviously last being getting authors permission.

I should have made note that I was referring to 3ds Max when I said the weld command. It allows you to weld vertices that are close together , in this example .001 meters of each other.

@Rocket: I should have also detailed the full thing that I do. I break up the model by textures (actually by sub materials). This prevents things being welded that shouldn't be welded and allows each 'object' to have only 1 material (texture) per object. There is a max script that you can download that populates the material editor , making each texture a seperate sub material of one single multimaterial. I have taken FSX (also FS2004) models that were over 20,000 polys down to under 15 using this method along with multires and no noticeable loss of resolution.

BTW, when I say it is easy, I mean that you can get the model ready for Oxygen in a matter of minutes, including having all your materials ready , decently reduced polys, and the shadow lod ready as well. Of course the work required inside O2 will need to be done regardless of method and nothing will change that. The "easy" part is making the model ready for O2.

Also, I tested a model I made for FSX, checked the polys on source and after captures, they are exactly the same.

Remember I capture the model from the main screen not INGAME, not sure if this will make a big difference or not.

Edited by acer1961

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like a decent workflow, however - the issue with ArmA/ArmA2 (and someone correct me if I'm wrong but this is my experience) is not just the number of verts themselves, but also the texture verts. Doing your process above does not remove the fact that you end up with craploads of textures, with potentially quite a high number of texture verts. FSX/FS9 are all about the one aircraft. It is not uncommon for an exterior of an aircraft to have over 60,000 polys (that's quite a few triangles...). I once got a 1,000,000 triangle International Space Station into FSX just for a few giggles. They are all about rendering the aircraft, with scant polys for anything else. ArmA/ArmA2, this is not the case.

What I do is use any high resolution models to trace over (such as those from FSX, MeshFactory, Turbosquid, MilViz or etc...), and then for baking into diffuse and normal textures.

The point I'm trying to labor here... is "horses for courses"... I'm trying to shift my focus to making good models that are designed specifically for ArmA2 rather than just getting something in there really quick. It's the only way to create something really useful rather than end up with our addon sites full of crappy models that are performance dogs with loads of bugs.

Edited by Rocket

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sounds like a decent workflow, however - the issue with ArmA/ArmA2 (and someone correct me if I'm wrong but this is my experience) is not just the number of verts themselves, but also the texture verts. Doing your process above does not remove the fact that you end up with craploads of textures, with potentially quite a high number of texture verts. FSX/FS9 are all about the one aircraft. It is not uncommon for an exterior of an aircraft to have over 60,000 polys (that's quite a few triangles...). I once got a 1,000,000 triangle International Space Station into FSX just for a few giggles. They are all about rendering the aircraft, with scant polys for anything else. ArmA/ArmA2, this is not the case.

What I do is use any high resolution models to trace over (such as those from FSX, MeshFactory, Turbosquid, MilViz or etc...), and then for baking into diffuse and normal textures.

The point I'm trying to labor here... is "horses for courses"... I'm trying to shift my focus to making good models that are designed specifically for ArmA2 rather than just getting something in there really quick. It's the only way to create something really useful rather than end up with our addon sites full of crappy models that are performance dogs with loads of bugs.

When I do a model for Arma, I make sure that the model has less than 15000 polys and 4 or less textures. I agree that some FSX, FS2004 models have a ton of textures. I also use PERFHUD from Nvidia to look at how the model is performing.

I guess what I am saying is that it is 'easy' to get a good model from FSX/FS2004 into O2 and have decent performance in Arma if you are carefull. For example the UH1 Huey I worked on some time ago, was very good...unfort I could not get the permission of the author to release it.

Edited by acer1961

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...I make sure that the model has less than 15000 polys and 4 or less textures...

...it is 'easy' to get a good model from FSX/FS2004 into O2 and have decent performance in Arma if you are carefull...

So how do you go from 60,000 polys and 10 textures, into 15,000 polys and 4 textures easily, and produce a "good" model with "decent" performance easily?

On a side note, you should aim for one texture, not four.

I'd quite like to know, as would the entire gaming industry, because then I can lay off most of the art team at work and employ a couple of students/vagrants.

In my humble opinion, unless you are optimizing a sphere, polygon reduction is never easy, and it is only in the hands of someone very skillful that it produces good results. You have MAJOR UV cleanup, and potential for severe polygon distortion.

Even if you manage to write a script, or use the new Max functions, that magically reduce polygon counts... on complex and weird models like Aircraft the results are less than pleasant. Automated polygon reduction or unrestrained vertex merging as a method of good optimizing is laughable.

Assuming you manage to optimize the model, you can bake the old uv's onto a new uv set, but that is not easy... generally requiring an experienced artist. Many artists I know and work with, do not know how to do this. I know how to do it, because I do that for IRIS. It takes many hours of careful UV manipulation and cautious baking, piecing it all together, sometimes with severe heartache and completely creating components from scratch, handpainting/cloning texture parts to cleanup. It is very expensive, and not easy.

Edited by Rocket

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So how do you go from 60,000 polys and 10 textures, into 15,000 polys and 4 textures easily, and produce a "good" model with "decent" performance easily?

On a side note, you should aim for one texture, not four.

I'd quite like to know, as would the entire gaming industry, because then I can lay off most of the art team at work and employ a couple of students/vagrants.

In my humble opinion, unless you are optimizing a sphere, polygon reduction is never easy, and it is only in the hands of someone very skillful that it produces good results. You have MAJOR UV cleanup, and potential for severe polygon distortion.

Even if you manage to write a script, or use the new Max functions, that magically reduce polygon counts... on complex and weird models like Aircraft the results are less than pleasant. Automated polygon reduction or unrestrained vertex merging as a method of good optimizing is laughable.

Assuming you manage to optimize the model, you can bake the old uv's onto a new uv set, but that is not easy... generally requiring an experienced artist. Many artists I know and work with, do not know how to do this. I know how to do it, because I do that for IRIS. It takes many hours of careful UV manipulation and cautious baking, piecing it all together, sometimes with severe heartache and completely creating components from scratch, handpainting/cloning texture parts to cleanup. It is very expensive, and not easy.

I don't go from 60,000 polys, most of the models I have captured in 3dripperdx are under 25,000 to begin with and are usually around 4 textures because I pick the model itself carefully, plus I capture more models from FS2004 instead of FSX for this reason. I have also used this program for poly reduction with excellent results (it sure helps to work in the 3d field and get good deals on plugins)

http://www.mootools.com/plugins/us/polygoncruncher/index.asp

It has some excellent options to virtually eliminate texture problems after reduction , such as maintain texture boundries so that you don't cut off textures. keep border vertices etc.

Oh btw, there is no need to get sarcastic, we are having a nice discussion about this stuff , don't ruin it by getting all high and mighty.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm being high and mighty, because you keep saying the same thing: That it is easy to get FSX/FS9 models into ArmA.

That is absolutely not true, and it is misleading to people like Myke (the OP) and others coming into ArmA from outside modding communities where such statements ARE true.

  • Where is the Geometry LOD?
  • The shadow LOD?
  • All the animations need to be setup.
  • You need to remap the UV's, rebake/paint the textures to new co-ordinates
  • Setup the configs
  • Define all the animations
  • Create the different resolution lods
  • View/Fire Geometry LODs
  • Not too mention... the interior views!

All of the above, are easier and more consistent if you use good reference and good modeling practice in the creation of your models. Taking a model from Tubrosquid and/or FSX and saying "right, now I'm plopping it in-game" is a recipe for disappointment that has been dished out here time and again. My point: there is no magic bullet, no script or plugin, no substitute for good modeling practice.

most of the models I have captured... are under 25,000 to begin with and are usually around 4 textures because I pick the model itself carefully

What you're saying, is that you choose models specifically that are close to being "acceptable" to load within ArmA. That's very different from it being easy to rip/port from FSX/FS9 and is precisely what Gnat already stated. He searched around and found the Piper which was one of a few prospects that offered any hope of a successful port.

If we go down this route, all we are going to end up with is addons that don't work properly.

Edited by Rocket

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm being high and mighty, because you keep saying the same thing: That it is easy to get FSX/FS9 models into ArmA.

That is absolutely not true, and it is misleading to people like Myke (the OP) and others coming into ArmA from outside modding communities where such statements ARE true.

  • Where is the Geometry LOD?
  • The shadow LOD?
  • All the animations need to be setup.
  • You need to remap the UV's, rebake/paint the textures to new co-ordinates
  • Setup the configs
  • Define all the animations
  • Create the different resolution lods
  • View/Fire Geometry LODs
  • Not too mention... the interior views!

All of the above, are easier and more consistent if you use good reference and good modeling practice in the creation of your models. Taking a model from Tubrosquid and/or FSX and saying "right, now I'm plopping it in-game" is a recipe for disappointment that has been dished out here time and again. My point: there is no magic bullet, no script or plugin, no substitute for good modeling practice.

What you're saying, is that you choose models specifically that are close to being "acceptable" to load within ArmA. That's very different from it being easy to rip/port from FSX/FS9 and is precisely what Gnat already stated. He searched around and found the Piper which was one of a few prospects that offered any hope of a successful port.

If we go down this route, all we are going to end up with is addons that don't work properly.

Everything you mentioned has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with importing from FSX/FS2004 into Arma. Those jobs need to be done regardless of methods

Yes, the addons will work properly , the UH1 that I imported worked as good as any addon created so far that I have seen , including your Maul. It started out as a 27,500 poly model, with 4 textures, when I was done , it was 12,220 polys with 4 textures and according to PerfHud , it was performing as good or better than anything already in the game.

You seem to think that YOUR way is the ONLY way because it works for YOU. There are other ways that work just as well. Your assumptions are based on a highly subjective assessment of "its working RIGHT".

Open your mind to other ways of doing things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not suggesting any way in particular.

This is a topic that has been discussed many, many times in the past. The problem is - when people (not yourself) who are new to 3d modeling and/or ArmA addons come to the forum, and see that someone says it is easy to import an [insert any library/game] model into ArmA - that is what they do and they have this expectation of "easy". They disheartened and leave, post questions here, and so on and so forth.

I'm not saying that your workflow does not work, nor that it is not the best, also not saying that your UH1 isn't the most amazing thing since sliced bread. I'm not saying that you can't make an amazing addon this way, nor that it will solve global warming and cure cancer.

But what I am saying, is that it is not easy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In summary (yes? )

- Its relatively easy to port a 3D model from FSX to O2 if you have the right tools

- But its NOT easy to turn that simple 3D into a proper usable addon for ArmA I / II

While I agree, theres an adrenaline surge when you first get the WHOLE 3D model, near fully textured into O2, reality sets in after a couple of days after you realise you have yet to create all those extra bit as discribed by Rocket ...

.... you somehow just have to keep the adrenaline pumping for a bunch of long nights and weekends. ;)

.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi!

I search some time ago how to convert the FS models to 3DS for O2 can convert to and put in the game. Able to convert models from other games as GTA and BF, the only way that was posted here in the GTA forums, because I believe that with the authorization of the authors of the 3D models do not have any problem moving to the ArmA\ArmA2. It is something we should explore more of the community as these other games offer many good models and that of course would give great addons. I am converting some models in secret for ArmA\ArmA2 always with the permission of the true author, and my only role of the converter and the result has been very good! Once the work is finished I will launch for the community too. And if interest I post here are my methods of converting these games, FS, GTA, BF and others ...

and...

In 3DRipper when I caught one of the FS aircraft and opened it in 3dmax it was flattened, but impossible to take the model =S

Edited by Dragon44

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To add a few thoughts:

1) You save time regardless what needs to be done in any case.

2) Not everyone has these quality requirements. Like:

* Some people care more about gameplay.

* Shadows are mostly off anyway.

* Animations are a bonus, not a requirement.

* You can always release anything in any state. No one is forcing anyone to use it. After all no one is paying for it.

3) A special unit only used once per mission can have more, than an units used often, especially with variants.

4) Also distance plays a big role. Vehicles are normally far away (lower LOD) compared to weapon models / pilot view LOD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi!

I search some time ago how to convert the FS models to 3DS for O2 can convert to and put in the game. Able to convert models from other games as GTA and BF, the only way that was posted here in the GTA forums, because I believe that with the authorization of the authors of the 3D models do not have any problem moving to the ArmA\ArmA2. It is something we should explore more of the community as these other games offer many good models and that of course would give great addons. I am converting some models in secret for ArmA\ArmA2 always with the permission of the true author, and my only role of the converter and the result has been very good! Once the work is finished I will launch for the community too. And if interest I post here are my methods of converting these games, FS, GTA, BF and others ...

and...

In 3DRipper when I caught one of the FS aircraft and opened it in 3dmax it was flattened, but impossible to take the model =S

Which version of 3dripper did you use, it sounds like an early version which did not detect the FOV properly or not at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the version of 3dripper is v1.5a

That is the version I use most often, I am wondering, did select the proper FOV when you imported.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That is the version I use most often, I am wondering, did select the proper FOV when you imported.

ok, I will follow the recommendations of the configuration 3dripper posted here on the topic ;) Another tip for those who want to import the models of the FS is to use the "MDLtoDXF" with this tool you will pass the files on .mdl to .dxf and 3dmax files can be opened after .dxf is only for export. 3ds and open in oxygen2.

Below is some pictures of that two aircraft converted by this method that quoted. The inner part of I am creating textures through photoreal and most of the textures I'm using the outside of the FS:

mini_R99_02.jpg

mini_R99_03.jpg

mini_AMX_02.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great topic over here. This is indeed a golden topic with tons of usefull info for new folks. Go rip guys,....don't wast your time on trying to make something yourself!

(reported, nothing new but imho this shouldn't be in a topic aimed at new commers and i don't suppose it is something BIS or any hardworking modder can stand behind...with or without permission).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Great topic over here. This is indeed a golden topic with tons of usefull info for new folks. Go rip guys,....don't wast your time on trying to make something yourself!

(reported, nothing new but imho this shouldn't be in a topic aimed at new commers and i don't suppose it is something BIS or any hardworking modder can stand behind...with or without permission).

What are you talking about.

I think you would be VERY surprised how many addons in this community are RIPPED.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What are you talking about.

I think you would be VERY surprised how many addons in this community are RIPPED.

Which is far from the point. If they're used with permission from the original authors, that is acceptable. If they're stolen and no permissions have been granted, it's wrong and it can get people in trouble.

I believe it's far more work to take a model built for a different engine based on completely different standards than it is to learn how to make your own.

People, trust me when I say you are really inhibiting yourself when you simply look to port the work of others. You gain far more by doing it yourself.

Now, IF this topic is going to remain on the actual method of converting .mdl to .p3d, then I would see it as OK and leave it open. If this is about taking models without any permissions given, it's getting closed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Which is far from the point. If they're used with permission from the original authors, that is acceptable. If they're stolen and no permissions have been granted, it's wrong and it can get people in trouble.

I believe it's far more work to take a model built for a different engine based on completely different standards than it is to learn how to make your own.

People, trust me when I say you are really inhibiting yourself when you simply look to port the work of others. You gain far more by doing it yourself.

Now, IF this topic is going to remain on the actual method of converting .mdl to .p3d, then I would see it as OK and leave it open. If this is about taking models without any permissions given, it's getting closed.

No one is saying or suggesting taking models without permission. You must ALWAYS get permission.

I am not sure why people think you gain MORE by doing the whole model yourself. There are a ton of models that can be converted into p3d and would be far less work than making them from scratch. Remember all the stuff in the .cfg files, and in O2 has to be done regardless of method, so you don't save any work that way. What you save is getting the .3ds file for importing into O2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No one is saying or suggesting taking models without permission. You must ALWAYS get permission.

I am not sure why people think you gain MORE by doing the whole model yourself. There are a ton of models that can be converted into p3d and would be far less work than making them from scratch. Remember all the stuff in the .cfg files, and in O2 has to be done regardless of method, so you don't save any work that way. What you save is getting the .3ds file for importing into O2.

When you do model yourself you gain experience, and more models you make more experience you gain, and at some point you can even start doing freelance work and get some money :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When you do model yourself you gain experience, and more models you make more experience you gain, and at some point you can even start doing freelance work and get some money :p

Now seriously how many people do you think will actually do that , instead of making some pretty decent mods for Arma/Arma2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Now seriously how many people do you think will actually do that , instead of making some pretty decent mods for Arma/Arma2

Some people actually do that, work their full time job, do freelance work, and then make addons for ArmA/ArmA2 :eek:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Some people actually do that, work their full time job, do freelance work, and then make addons for ArmA/ArmA2 :eek:

I agree some do that. MOST don't. If we try and limit people to only creating models from scratch instead of converting a lot of addons don't get made and we don't enjoy them.

And make no mistake some people are trying to limit this by their 'attitudes' towards converting and indictating that the only 'real' way of doing it is from scratch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×