Israel - another cat out of the bag

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Mar. 17 2002,03:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And I am NOT being anti semitic when I say that there is no justification for that sort of thing. NONE.  There are things civilized people dont do.  And no matter how uncivilized your enemy is, lowering yourself to thier level is a very slippery slope, in a moral sense.<span id='postcolor'>

So it's more civilized to let dozens of your own countryman get killed than to forge Canadian passports and bump of the one or two people planning to perpetrate such an attack, hiding in the safety of civilized countries whose intelligence agaencies usually don't have to deal with these sort fo people to begin with?

Sorry, your definition of "civilized" is uncivilized to me.

[ralphwiggum 6]

alright scratch the 'right to' part.

but saying 'though I never said they didn't' would also mean that there are possible support for them to kill foreign nationals, so you are not being clear on what stance should Mossad take, and you are leaving the opportunity for justifying assasination of foreign nationals.

and thanx for clearing the name of the target. I knew who he was(as a anti-Israel guy) but wasn't sure with what group he was related to.

Anyway, the head of Massad had to resign, but I think and tried to say wa that it was a stupid planning. I don't condone the action. but when I first heard the news, I shook my head in disbelief, as the sketchy report showed what a poor execution of the operation has been.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">According to you, I shouldn't be able to quote any non-Jewish source either, as so many of them were on the Allies side and they couldn't possibly be objective either. Or is it only us Jews that aren't capable of documenting the Nazi's attrocities. Might as well trash Yad Vashem and the Holocaust Museum, as they simply must be cranking out fiction.<span id='postcolor'>

I think you are taking this a bit too far. my position is that anyone who claims an argument, should not use his/her side's info and the opponenets info that would suuport his/her side. my idea is that you need objective, reliable, unbiased source.

for example, the Holocaust is a FACT. it doesn't support a side. it's there, and it's objetive. Auschwitz(sp?) existed, ppl were butchered(ok..couldn't find the term that could be more accurate). however, what I'm against is manipulating those facts to supprt one's side.

You are right that magnitude of Gestapo's action is not same as what the 2 agents were supposed to do. but in the end, result is same. dead bodies of one's enemies.(don't even think about replying to this statement. let me make it clear. it is a FACT that Germans were considering Jewish as enemies)

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 17 2002,07:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Alright, mea culpa, my bad, the Gestapo connection was a stretch. Do I get my spankings now or later?  <span id='postcolor'>

want me to do the honor?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Mar. 17 2002,04:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you can't recognize that the Israeli's have done just as much bad too palestinian civilians, then I would suggest you are a bit misinformed. Funny/tragic thing is that most of you sitting in some other country (USA) is that you only understand the israeli military to be responding to the palestinian terrorbombing of civilian Israelis, and never ever the other way around.<span id='postcolor'>

Go look for a copy of a Norwegian newspaper that reported the event of the first day of the outbreak of this war and see who attacked whom, after rejecting then Prime Minister Barak's complete capitulations at the negotiating table at Camp David.

Look back carefully and see who offered a unilateral cease fire more than once but to no avail.

More European bologna.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The other thing about this thread that surprises me is that none of you has mentioned that the Israeli army has totaly closed down the economic life in palestinian areas, ensuring that food and other supplies are denied the affected people.<span id='postcolor'>

Outright wicked lies. Even the Coca Cola trucks get through.

How many 10's of thousands of people have died from starvation so far? Go on! Tell us! Food and all essential supplies all go through. Hell! We're so stupid, we still supply them with gas, electricity, water, fuel and telecom.

Your deceit is easily refutable.

Yes, surprise, we don't want to let Palestinians into our work places. There's a rumor that our lives would be at risk if we simply opened up the roads and let everyone in.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I also wonder why you'r always sceptical towards palestinian versions of the crisis, but never question the actions taken by Israel. To me that sounds "biased" as some of you people in other countris love to call it!<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe because it's the truth. Maybe because you can't trust people who will tell you that 9/11 was a Mosad plot, that we injected their children with aids, that we poisoned their water supply, that there no connection between the Jews and the Land of Israel, that first and second Temples either never existed or that there's nothing to prove that they exist where they've always known to be and where there remnats remain to this day.

Yes, trust them, fool.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Mar. 17 2002,08:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You are right that magnitude of Gestapo's action is not same as what the 2 agents were supposed to do. but in the end, result is same. dead bodies of one's enemies.(don't even think about replying to this statement. let me make it clear. it is a FACT that Germans were considering Jewish as enemies)<span id='postcolor'>

Yes and policeman all over the world are like Nazis because they also must sometimes kill people - public enemies - in the line of duty.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 17 2002,08:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Mar. 17 2002,08:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You are right that magnitude of Gestapo's action is not same as what the 2 agents were supposed to do. but in the end, result is same. dead bodies of one's enemies.(don't even think about replying to this statement. let me make it clear. it is a FACT that Germans were considering Jewish as enemies)<span id='postcolor'>

Yes and policeman all over the world are like Nazis because they also must sometimes kill people - public enemies - in the line of duty.<span id='postcolor'>

and it justifies shooting of that supposed bomber

furthermore, don't bring police into this equation. there are differences.

police=don't fire until it is absolutely needed to fire.

Gestapo= didn't care.

2 agents=did not have to wait till the Hamas guy attacked them; they were not there to defend the public.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Mar. 17 2002,06:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is were I believe you are misinformed. Yes, the palestinians target civilians. No, Israel doesn't "try" to get the people responsable for the attacks - on the contrary - they are indiscriminate about who they target.<span id='postcolor'>

This is sheer fantasy. What makes someone in Norway foam at the mouth with such nonsense?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You only have to take a look at yesterdays events when a mother and three children was killed. But of course, you always believe the Israelis when they say "so sorry, we didn't mean to".....<span id='postcolor'>

What a coincidence that the car hit and the family killed was correctly identified as belong to a major Hamas terrorist head.

Tell me, why don't you believe it? All of us here say we goofed again. Now we're going to be scolded and rebuked by the entire world like every other time. That's how the soldiers feel, that's how our politicians feel and that's how us palin folk feel here to. DO you see us going out dancing in the streets when this happens? Do our newspapers glimmer with delight at these events? What other country's chief of staff (no less) attempts to publicly apolgize when things like this happen.

Go on. Don't believe us. I'm just happy to set the record straight for those that might otherwise fall for your drivvle.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, Israeli tanks firing at hospitals, refugee camps, stonethrowing boys, wifes and daughters, ambulances etc. isn't much different in my view. However, I am not defending the terrorbombing of the militant palestinians - never will, because it is WRONG!!<span id='postcolor'>

We weren't in any Palestinian areas when the violence broke out in October 2000.

We do not intentionally fire on hospitals, yet we will do so when the PA uses those buildings, not just as a safehaven, which they do, but to fire on us.

The refugee camps is where the PA, Tanzim, Force 17, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aksa Brigades and everyone else operate from. This is not a war in the desert. These terrorists couldn't give a damn about the safety of their own people.

As for ambulances, they have been used by the arabs since day one of this war for ferrying armed men to confrontations. The case of the ambulance that was shot at two weeks ago was one where the ambulance driver refused to stop - indeed sped up - when approaching a military road block.

The female suicide bomber who blew herself up on downtown Jerusalem's busiest corner about two months ago was herself a Palestinian Red Crescent worker.

You can read the Israeli response to this accusation in this Jerusalem Post article. Note that Deputy Defense Minister Dalia Rabin-Pelossof is the daughter of deceased Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I suppose you could ask the average israeli mom if she is proud that her son or daughter defend Israel she would most certainly answer: yes!<span id='postcolor'>

They went on the offensive. I would be even happier if our children didn't have to be in the army in the first place.

Our children and soldiers aren't taught that the Arabs must be annihilated and destroyed. In contrast these are the textbook lessons that arab children are spoonfed while they're still in diapers.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hope you understand that I don't identify myself with this. I am not against US or Israel in general.<span id='postcolor'>

None of the details I brought up are ever brought up by you. I contend that you are indeed strongly biased against Israel. You are blind to the facts or you simply don't know them.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Mar. 17 2002,09:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and it justifies shooting of that supposed bomber

furthermore, don't bring police into this equation. there are differences.

police=don't fire until it is absolutely needed to fire.

Gestapo= didn't care.

2 agents=did not have to wait till the Hamas guy attacked them; they were not there to defend the public.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't understand what you're saying. Put down that beer and type straight!

[theavonlady 2]

Speaking of terrorists and ambulances, this just in.

This is the same Magen David Adom organization that said last week:

Magen David Adom president Dr. Moshe Maloul called on "all sides to avoid harming ambulances and their medical staffs." He added that there should be no interference in the transfer of patients, medical equipment, blood supplies, and treatment areas.

He also appealed to the combatants to honor the symbols on emergency vehicles. "Individuals who are not connected to the lifesaving organization on their humanitarian missions must be prevented from using these vehicles," Maloul said, adding that "MDA regrets the loss of life and harm to medical teams in the two [other] organizations."

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 17 2002,08:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Mar. 17 2002,09:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and it justifies shooting of that supposed bomber

furthermore, don't bring police into this equation. there are differences.

police=don't fire until it is absolutely needed to fire.

Gestapo= didn't care.

2 agents=did not have to wait till the Hamas guy attacked them; they were not there to defend the public.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't understand what you're saying. Put down that beer and type straight!  <span id='postcolor'>

never!!!! beer is here to stay!!!!!

my point was that police force can be justified in passive defense situation. as you know american cops are trained to shoot only if there are good evidence that the officer's life is in jeopardy.

gestapo? never

those 2 mosad agents? they went with intention of assasiantion, taking risks.

[red oct 2]

"Its just a shame we don't have a Palestinian here and then I suppose we could get both sides of the argument (The lies and the truths)"

what a great idea! we can listen to black propaganda and  more one sided stories

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Mar. 17 2002,10:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">those 2 mosad agents? they went with intention of assasiantion, taking risks.<span id='postcolor'>

Granted it's risky. That's not what we were discussing.

You aluded to a connection between Mossad hits like this and the Gestapo because in both cases there are dead bodies.

I'll change the comparison from cops to soldiers, which is essentially the role of such Mossad agents. There are dead in wars. There's often a good or right side in many wars, too. Killing even an unarmed terrorist operative who is involved in planning and activating massacres from some far away safehaven, IMO, has no comparison to Gestapo death squads eliminating millions of people because they were not of the Aryan race.

[ralphwiggum 6]

ok i'll try to explain that gestapo thingy

my point was that gestapo's action was to eliminate opposition, and so was the 2 mossad agents. that's what i meant by 'after all they same dead bodies'

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Mar. 17 2002,10:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ok i'll try to explain that gestapo thingy

my point was that gestapo's action was to eliminate opposition<span id='postcolor'>

Two things:

1. You view unarmed non-Aryan (hate using the term) civilian men women and children who are running and hiding as "opposition"?

2. Eliminating opposition seems to be a trend in all wars for all sides, whether good or bad.

[ralphwiggum 6]

think it this way. as i mentioned earlier, gestapos and whole germany considered jewish as enemies. that's what they were thinking and they thought it was their duty to kill jewish. of xourse this is wrong, but i'm pointing to the fact that germans/gestapos were considering jewish enemies, despite many were non-armed combatants.

and i'm pretty sure that 2 agents did consider HAmas guy as an enemy too

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Mar. 17 2002,10:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and i'm pretty sure that 2 agents did consider HAmas guy as an enemy too<span id='postcolor'>

And I'm pretty sure that allied forces considered the Germans as enemies. At least that's what they taught me way back in school about WWII.

So can we therefore compare WWII allied US, British, Canadian, Australian and partisan forces to the Gestapo, too, or is this distinguishment specially reserved for Israel's Mossad?

[ralphwiggum 6]

looking at results only, yes

either you get killed by germans, or kill 'em.

maybe word 'common denominator' could have been better.

from this point on, what needs to be done is finding out who was the initial aggressor. then we can punish the aggressor

[Guest Scooby]

If for example mossad would assassinate someone in Finland and they would pick wrong target I'd expect nothing less from our goverment than cutting diplomatic relations to that country, arresting or sending people back to where they came from, etc.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Scooby @ Mar. 17 2002,11:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If for example mossad would assassinate someone in Finland and they would pick wrong target I'd expect nothing less from our goverment than cutting diplomatic relations to that country, arresting or sending people back to where they came from, etc.<span id='postcolor'>

Sounds right to me.

Has anyone ever thought about why the Mossad had to do any of this in the first place?

Why not simply tip off the local authorities?

[theavonlady 2]

They're getting younger!

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 17 2002,10:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Has anyone ever thought about why the Mossad had to do any of this in the first place?

Why not simply tip off the local authorities?<span id='postcolor'>

Because the local authorities need a little more evidence than just a tip from Mossad? Maybe the local authorities respect the local law like that?

[theavonlady 2]

Yep, that's a definite possibility.

[Pete 1]

As for ambulances, they have been used by the arabs since day one of this war for ferrying armed men to confrontations. The case of the ambulance that was shot at two weeks ago was one where the ambulance driver refused to stop - indeed sped up - when approaching a military road block.

proof?

right...none, israel has failed to present proof....yet they fired at ambulances 170! times since this conflict started...at a increasing rate the last weeks

israeli accusations have been investigated by a neutral party, no proof of ambulances used for military purposes, neither has israel provided such proof.....funny, dont you think....you who say that sharon is innocent untill prooven quilty.

also about the handcuffed man....funny, for me it seemed as there was a dead body, shot in the head, with handcuffs on....it also looked like if he was being undressed by the soldiers and let to be handcuffed for some time before he was shot....

do you have better pictures of this, do you have a video?.....these pictures "proove" me that he was first undressed, then handcuffed...and then shot...and no bomb visible.

proove me wrong...or is it just that you cant accept that israel can make a single mistake?

[Supah 0]

If my memory serves me well israel has only been responding to terrorism since this whole intifada thibng started. As i remember this whole thing started when the PA thought they could dictate where Israeli citizens went in their own country. THey were thinking they could say where ariel sharon could and couldnt go. Well offcourse they couldnt. Ariel Sharon went to the temple mount (i believe) as is his full right as an Israeli citizens. When the Palestinians found out they couldnt make ludicrous demands and expect ever Israeli to ply to their rather dimwitted demands they started this whole second intifada. Now when Israel resticts arafats freedom of movement every one is outraged forgetting that Arafat tried to do the same on Ariel Sharon and through doing so started this whole thing. And to ask the IDF and mossad to stop fighting the palestinians is to ask all the israeli's to litteraly commit mass suicide cuz that is whats gonna happen. Untill recently (or it may still be in there) it was in the PLO's manifesto that the state of israel should be destroyed and all jews "removed" from the middle east. How does one negotiate with such people.

[Paratrooper 0]

Whatever the rights and wrongs on both sides, Israel uses brutality against a civillian populaton. Tanks, Jets and Bulldozers.

If they halted their occupation of Palestine and granted them a state peace would be a possibility.

Despite it all, good people should want peace, or would you rather keep taking an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth?

And Avon lady calling me an anti-semite when clearly my moderate stance shows I'm not is slanderous. What gives you the right to patrol this fourum with a branding iron?!