Supah 0 Posted March 17, 2002 Israel doesnt use brutality against the Palestinian civilians ... it uses "brutality" towards a certain people who chose to hiden in that population and who are actually hidden by that population. The palestinian terrorists are blowing them selves up in for instance shopping malls with the intent to kill civilians and to spread fear amongst the Israeli population. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stealt Eagle 1 Posted March 17, 2002 The palestinians who are doing terrorism, and hiding among ordinary palestian civilians, don't get that the WHOLE blame are given to their ppl Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InRange 1 Posted March 17, 2002 I'm not an anti-semite or anything but Israel itself was given to the Jews by the English after pressure from Jewish terrorists. Before that, England had stolen it from the Palestinians. The point that I'm trying to make is, how would you feel if your land was stolen by colonialists and then given to somebody else? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paratrooper 0 Posted March 17, 2002 The British didn't steal the land, they took it from the Ottoman Empire after the Great War, perhaps we made a mistake. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 17, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (InRange @ Mar. 17 2002,17:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm not an anti-semite or anything but Israel itself was given to the Jews by the English after pressure from Jewish terrorists. Before that, England had stolen it from the Palestinians. The point that I'm trying to make is, how would you feel if your land was stolen by colonialists and then given to somebody else?<span id='postcolor'> ??? Now where on earth did you get that from? Following World War II, the British withdrew from their mandate of Palestine, and the UN partitioned the area into Arab and Jewish states, an arrangement rejected by the Arabs. The Arabs attacked Israel and got their butts severely kicked. This was repeated a couple of times. The extra territiories that Israel currently hold are from the war in 1967 (west bank, golan heights and gaza I think). Israel got the territory not because of terrorist acts but as a "sorry for not doing anything while your people were slaughtered by the nazis"-gift. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
InRange 1 Posted March 17, 2002 Okay, but in fact it was given to them after pressure from Jewish -!- terrorists. I saw that in a documentary and recall reading about it as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 17, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (InRange @ Mar. 17 2002,18:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Okay, but in fact it was given to them after pressure from Jewish -!- terrorists. I saw that in a documentary and recall reading about it as well.<span id='postcolor'> If you say so. I have never heard about that, but then again I am not so well-read on the subject. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brgnorway 0 Posted March 17, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 17 2002,07:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Mar. 17 2002,02:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> That the PLO used to be a terror organization should be clear to everyone. However, it is today also one of the two ingredients for future peace.<span id='postcolor'> They are the problem, not the solution. They are the whole mistaken foundation on with the Oslo Agreements were doomed to failure on from day 1.<span id='postcolor'> You are wrong in my opinion. It's people like you that represent continious war and tragedy. There is no escaping though that the palestinian bombing campaign made peace/oslo agreement impossible to implement. But so did the continuing establishment of settlements on palestinian soil. Oh, I forgot - of course you are entitled to ALL the land. Sure thing! And by the way - it's considered a criminal act for mossad to kill people in Norway - even if they palestinian in this respect was innocent and had absolutely nothing to do with any official or unofficial palestinian organisation. But then again, your military forces are rather indiscriminate about who they target. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brgnorway 0 Posted March 17, 2002 3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 17 2002,083)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'> </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Maybe because it's the truth. Maybe because you can't trust people who will tell you that 9/11 was a Mosad plot, that we injected their children with aids, that we poisoned their water supply, that there no connection between the Jews and the Land of Israel, that first and second Temples either never existed or that there's nothing to prove that they exist where they've always known to be and where there remnats remain to this day. Yes, trust them, fool. <span id='postcolor'> I think you are going too far now. Ridiculing other forum members is not propper behavior. I would suggest that since you feel so strongly about this conflict you shouldn't take part in this debate simply because you cant control yourself. You are an insulting bastard when you call other fellow forum members fools or try to insinuate that they are anti semittic. Which I'm certainly not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Placebo 29 Posted March 17, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Mar. 17 2002,22:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think you are going too far now. Ridiculing other forum members is not propper behavior. I would suggest that since you feel so strongly about this conflict you shouldn't take part in this debate simply because you cant control yourself. You are an insulting bastard when you call other fellow forum members fools or try to insinuate that they are anti semittic. Which I'm certainly not.<span id='postcolor'> As far as I'm concerned Avon is the only one with the real right to hold this debate, she's the one who lives in the country, she's the one who goes out of her house, out to visit friends, out to go shopping, out to grab a bite to eat etc. etc. etc. with the very real risk of being murdered by these evil scum, she's the one who most likely knows friends/family members who've been injured/killed by these animals. Everyone here who throws their opinions into the Israel/Palestine ring get those opinions from the selective media of their countries and other outside countries, you're throwing back second hand thoughts and opinions from sources that you have no way of knowing the validity of, personally I see that as insulting, have any of you lived one minute in the shoes of someone living in either Palestine or Israel? It's very easy to see things in the media or read things in newspapers and make judgments based on those things, but it's another thing entirely to actually live through such things, I cannot really imagine what it's like for Israelis having to try to form some semblance of a normal life with the dangers they face, the only comparison I can draw is from growing up in England when the IRA were at their most active, but then that never affected me so much because I grew up in a town that was never going to be a target, in Israel everywhere is a target, every Israeli is a target. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brgnorway 0 Posted March 17, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Mar. 18 2002,00:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Mar. 17 2002,22:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think you are going too far now. Ridiculing other forum members is not propper behavior. I would suggest that since you feel so strongly about this conflict you shouldn't take part in this debate simply because you cant control yourself. You are an insulting bastard when you call other fellow forum members fools or try to insinuate that they are anti semittic. Which I'm certainly not.<span id='postcolor'> As far as I'm concerned Avon is the only one with the real right to hold this debate, she's the one who lives in the country, she's the one who goes out of her house, out to visit friends, out to go shopping, out to grab a bite to eat etc. etc. etc. with the very real risk of being murdered by these evil scum, she's the one who most likely knows friends/family members who've been injured/killed by these animals. Everyone here who throws their opinions into the Israel/Palestine ring get those opinions from the selective media of their countries and other outside countries, you're throwing back second hand thoughts and opinions from sources that you have no way of knowing the validity of, personally I see that as insulting, have any of you lived one minute in the shoes of someone living in either Palestine or Israel? It's very easy to see things in the media or read things in newspapers and make judgments based on those things, but it's another thing entirely to actually live through such things, I cannot really imagine what it's like for Israelis having to try to form some semblance of a normal life with the dangers they face, the only comparison I can draw is from growing up in England when the IRA were at their most active, but then that never affected me so much because I grew up in a town that was never going to be a target, in Israel everywhere is a target, every Israeli is a target.<span id='postcolor'> So maybe we should all shut up and stop caring about what might happen in the middle east at all. Frankly - that most of us are not directly conserned in this conflict doesn't mean we are not qualified to have an opinion. If - as you say - we are not entitled to have an opinion then there shouldn't be made any effort by the international community to at least try to achieve peace. To me that is pure hypocracy - because what doesn't hurt us dont bother us. You could just as well ask the same qustion to any palestinian that are affected by israeli tanks, infantry, bombs, rockets etc. You see there is also another voice in this conflict. However, since you obviously suggest that I am not entitled to have an opinion about the ongoing conflict in the middle east, then I am at least entitled to have an opinion about mossad murdering an innocent palestinian in Norway. By the way, I would rather say that most europeans have a right to an opinion based on the fact that most european countries have been affected be the conflict indirectly by the terror events in the sixties, seventies and first half of the eighties. So, it actually concerns us all. And I dont like that Avon tries to make me look like an anti semittic. This is offensive because my grandfather was sent to Sachzenhausen and suffered the same fate as the jews. And I'm not a fool! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Warin 0 Posted March 18, 2002 Placebo, There's an old addage.. Opinions are like as..er.. bottoms. Â Everyone has one. Add to that And most of them stink. It is human nature to form our opinions, and in most cases hang onto them for dear life, even when they are wrong. Â Does that make it right? Not even remotely. But hey...that's human nature. I am in no way slamming Avonlady. Â I have a great deal of respect for anyone insane enough to have SEVEN children, let alone someone living in such a dangerous area of the world. What does bother me is the knee jerk response that is often given whenever someone suggests Israel might not be lilly white. Â You're branded an anti-semite and dismissed. Â And THAT is as vast an error in logic as forming an opinion based on one source in the media is. There are great wrongs being done by both sides. Â But if I had to pick the side I think is 'wrong' it would be the Palestinians. Â If they just STOPPED suicide bombings, and stepped back from protests, I suspect the Israeli Army would also stop their violent confrontations. Â SOMEONE has to start, and at this point I dont think there is a lot Israel can do short of packing up and leaving (and we all know htat's not going to happen) that will stop the violence. Â So the first step is in the hands of the Palestinians. Â And that means no more sniping and no more suicide bombs. Â Sadly I dont see that happening. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brgnorway 0 Posted March 18, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Mar. 18 2002,01:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Placebo, There's an old addage.. Opinions are like as..er.. bottoms. Â Everyone has one. Add to that And most of them stink. It is human nature to form our opinions, and in most cases hang onto them for dear life, even when they are wrong. Â Does that make it right? Not even remotely. But hey...that's human nature. I am in no way slamming Avonlady. Â I have a great deal of respect for anyone insane enough to have SEVEN children, let alone someone living in such a dangerous area of the world. What does bother me is the knee jerk response that is often given whenever someone suggests Israel might not be lilly white. Â You're branded an anti-semite and dismissed. Â And THAT is as vast an error in logic as forming an opinion based on one source in the media is. There are great wrongs being done by both sides. Â But if I had to pick the side I think is 'wrong' it would be the Palestinians. Â If they just STOPPED suicide bombings, and stepped back from protests, I suspect the Israeli Army would also stop their violent confrontations. Â SOMEONE has to start, and at this point I dont think there is a lot Israel can do short of packing up and leaving (and we all know htat's not going to happen) that will stop the violence. Â So the first step is in the hands of the Palestinians. Â And that means no more sniping and no more suicide bombs. Â Sadly I dont see that happening.<span id='postcolor'> Finally someone whom is able to discuss in a propper way! Well said! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tex -USMC- 0 Posted March 18, 2002 Warin, you hit the nail on the head. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Decimus 2 Posted March 18, 2002 If this was touched on before I am sorry. I didn't read past page 7. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"if you'd do your reading, you would find out they cleared the buildings out before they blew them up." Ethnic cleansing. This is what Slobodan is on trial for you know.<span id='postcolor'> This is the most incoherent thought Longinius has had yet. Clearing buildings before you blow them up is ethnic cleansing?! What the crap is that? On another note, look at the Israeli war of Independence. The muslims are not interested in coexistence with Israel. 5 arab armies simultaneously crossed the border into Israel the very day it was formed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Longinius 1 Posted March 18, 2002 "This is the most incoherent thought Longinius has had yet. Clearing buildings before you blow them up is ethnic cleansing?! What the crap is that?" No, but attacking refugee camps with tanks and displacing people of certain ethnic background then moving in on the land they once had IS ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing do not have to be about death camps. "As far as I'm concerned Avon is the only one with the real right to hold this debate, she's the one who lives in the country, she's the one who goes out of her house, out to visit friends, out to go shopping, out to grab a bite to eat etc. etc. etc. with the very real risk of being murdered by these evil scum, she's the one who most likely knows friends/family members who've been injured/killed by these animals." So, by that reasoning, no one outside a conflict should debate it or worry about it? Then we should never have sent people to the Balkans nor Kuwait nor Somalia. But we did. "Everyone here who throws their opinions into the Israel/Palestine ring get those opinions from the selective media of their countries and other outside countries, you're throwing back second hand thoughts and opinions from sources that you have no way of knowing the validity of, personally I see that as insulting, have any of you lived one minute in the shoes of someone living in either Palestine or Israel?" And the media Avon links and anything else we find on the net. This means we get pro Israel info, pro Palestine info and everything in between. Just like Avon. The difference is Avon belongs to one side of this conflict, but that does not give us less of a right to discuss it or have opinions. "It's very easy to see things in the media or read things in newspapers and make judgments based on those things, but it's another thing entirely to actually live through such things, I cannot really imagine what it's like for Israelis having to try to form some semblance of a normal life with the dangers they face, the only comparison I can draw is from growing up in England when the IRA were at their most active, but then that never affected me so much because I grew up in a town that was never going to be a target, in Israel everywhere is a target, every Israeli is a target" It is also very easy to be mislead and made to target innocent people. In the 1930's a famous European leader turned an entire people against one innocent ethnic group. Think it is hard for other governments to do the same, especially when the other side is actually doing things wrong? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted March 18, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Mar. 18 2002,00:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As far as I'm concerned Avon is the only one with the real right to hold this debate, she's the one who lives in the country, she's the one who goes out of her house, out to visit friends, out to go shopping, out to grab a bite to eat etc. etc. etc. with the very real risk of being murdered by these evil scum, she's the one who most likely knows friends/family members who've been injured/killed by these animals.<span id='postcolor'> True and false. Yes, she has direct experience, that we don't, but she is also biased. Besides, we do have some information too, that we get from the independent media. Not that I am saying that all the media reports are unbiased, but it is still a source of information. And second, we have the capability of thinking for ourself. With basic information and logical reasoning, you don't need hands-on experience to form an opinion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Decimus 2 Posted March 19, 2002 </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"This is the most incoherent thought Longinius has had yet. Clearing buildings before you blow them up is ethnic cleansing?! What the crap is that?" No, but attacking refugee camps with tanks and displacing people of certain ethnic background then moving in on the land they once had IS ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing do not have to be about death camps.<span id='postcolor'> That may be so but your answer does not pertain to my original question. Blowing up buildings used by snipers or as safe houses for terorist groups is not "the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of ethnic minorities by a dominant majority group." They are not being targeted because they are a minority they are being targeted because they commit terrorist acts or harbor those who do. The terrorists' actions may be ethnically motivated but taking action against those who attack you is not discriminating towards their ethnicity. Hitler's final solution, japanese american internment camps, the conflict in bosnia and kosovo are all examples of ethnic cleansing but this is not one of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites