Really? A crosshair for a "realistic" sim?

[An Fiach 10]

I likwe it being an option but still think it should be changed to better suit its purpose in a more realistic manner, i.e. not useful for long range sighting. I usually play on servers that are in veteran mode anyway.

[galzohar 31]

I am quite sure that 3rd view is more realistic than egoshooterviewmode and not at all a cheat (broad discussion on that here.

And I am also quite sure that crosshair is spoiling my immersion immensely.

How is x-ray vision not a cheat? 3rd person allows you to see stuff you shouldn't be able to see IRL in no way whatsoever. Sure 1st person blocks a little bit of what you would be able to see IRL (though you can turn around and look to sort of make up for that), but at least it doesn't show you things you absolutely shouldn't be able to see.

[dmarkwick 261]

How is x-ray vision not a cheat? 3rd person allows you to see stuff you shouldn't be able to see IRL in no way whatsoever. Sure 1st person blocks a little bit of what you would be able to see IRL (though you can turn around and look to sort of make up for that), but at least it doesn't show you things you absolutely shouldn't be able to see.

3rd person allows you to see around obstacles that IRL you should be able to peep around or over. Until ArmA2 allows you to gently raise your head ever so slightly, by tiny increments, or to very precisely allow you to lean while prone to allow one eye to see around a wall/boulder/whatever, then 3rd person has a place in ArmA2 gameplay.

[An Fiach 10]

3rd person allows you to see around obstacles that IRL you should be able to peep around or over. Until ArmA2 allows you to gently raise your head ever so slightly, by tiny increments, or to very precisely allow you to lean while prone to allow one eye to see around a wall/boulder/whatever, then 3rd person has a place in ArmA2 gameplay.

Doesn't matter much, it would still be just enough to receive a bullet.

[Herbal Influence 10]

For not derailing this thread, broad discussion on 3rd view versus egoshooterviewmode here.

[pLaYsKoO 0]

Why is it you feel that you and others should take it upon themselves to dictate to others what game options they can and cannot have? I have found that in the gaming world the people that set all these rules and dictate specific criteria like those that you mentioned. Tend to come from (in many cases not all) gamers that cannot stand the fact that there are gamers out there that they just cannot compete against. Since ArmA 2 is not really a game that is idea for competitive league play. What do you care what someone else see's on their screen? How does that in any way diminish you're immersion level? Because the game play options that they prefer allows him to get more kills than you in the server that you're in? Maybe if you quit worrying about the settings that other players are using you could focus on what it is that you are doing. And as for all of you "die hard realism" players out there. It's a f*#king video game, Rather than live in pretend world. Go and enlist in the Marine Corps. Was the first thing I did when I graduated High school.

[HyperU2 11]

Why is it you feel that you and others should take it upon themselves to dictate to others what game options they can and cannot have? I have found that in the gaming world the people that set all these rules and dictate specific criteria like those that you mentioned. Tend to come from (in many cases not all) gamers that cannot stand the fact that there are gamers out there that they just cannot compete against. Since ArmA 2 is not really a game that is idea for competitive league play. What do you care what someone else see's on their screen? How does that in any way diminish you're immersion level? Because the game play options that they prefer allows him to get more kills than you in the server that you're in? Maybe if you quit worrying about the settings that other players are using you could focus on what it is that you are doing. And as for all of you "die hard realism" players out there. It's a f*#king video game, Rather than live in pretend world. Go and enlist in the Marine Corps. Was the first thing I did when I graduated High school.

Couldn't agree more, except that I signed up for the Corps while I was in my junior year. ;)

[diveplane 0]

First off, I really like this game. I've been playing BIS games since OFP1. However, isnt it time they get rid of the onscreen crosshair for first person view?

I mean, you can use this thing all day long to make well aimed shots...shots even over distance; shots that should require the basic principles of marksman ship such as breath, posture, and aiming using a sight picture.

One should be forced to use the actual iron sights or optics to do that. Having an onscreen reticle is absolutely ridiculous no matter how you argue or defend it.

Some will say that it is there to translate a "feel" of the gun's aim to a player to overcome the loss of a 2d representation of a computer game played on a keyboard and mouse.

However, this can be still achieved without the crosshair as proven in another of my favorite games, Project Reality. But more than that, one can still get a "feel" for aiming center w/o a crosshair just by knowing the rounds will hit near the center of the screen (unless you are looking elsewhere - but why would you shoot then?). Doesnt that accomplish the same thing?

But, even if you all at BIS were really "married" to the (Id say very wrong and very arcade) on screen reticle (which lessens immersion), then why not change it to something like a big circle that expands and contracts based on fatigue, health, etc? That way, one still gets that "feel" that you all are aiming for (no pun intended) and will satisfy those that will argue why its there. This will also prevent players from making aimed shots at distance without using any sights; any real shooting mechanics. Honestly though, the circle idea would still suck...Im just looking for a compromise.

BIS, its time for some soul searching here and new discussions in my humble opinion. This has to be reconsidered.

There is no way a fine game like this can defend putting a reticle on screen like it is. A reticle that even looks like iron sights no less.

There is no way one should be able to right click, zoom, hold breath, and make an aimed shot while not using the real weapon sights (and thereby being affected by a loss of periphreal vision too - see realism).

I hope there are more diehard realism players out there who think, "You know what...its time to lose this". I hope BIS reconsiders and actually removes it from this fine game.

Not to spam here, but for anyone thats actually played Project Reality (a mod for Battlefield 2), the game plays just great WITHOUT an onscreen, cheesy, crosshair. You actually have to take a second to get behind your sights for an aimed shot...a second you may or may not have....and therein lies added realism for a game that prides itself as having a ton of.

And I know some people will troll in here and yell realism means this and that and wearing pain vests to translate the feeling of getting shot to the player (Ive read them before) so lets keep our feet planted in reality okay. I know the limitiations and sacrifices made for games....this just isnt one of them that needs to be made.

And I know there will be others who will troll in and say, let BIS fix the game first (which I happen to agree with). So, Im asking anyone who wants or cares to comment (if there is anyone out there) to please keep this on topic and refrain from flames, or posts about patches first, or go play somewhere else. I dropped 50 bucks on this game so I think I can ask a question.

I just dont see a place for an onscreen reticle in this sort of infantry sim. Do you?

cross hair can be turned off.in options..

[JSj 12]

cross hair can be turned off.in options..

That doesn't change the fact that a realistic game shouldn't have any type of crosshair at all.

[An Fiach 10]

Go play real life, I hear it doesn't have crosshairs. ;)

[maddogx 13]

That doesn't change the fact that a realistic game shouldn't have any type of crosshair at all.

The game is designed to be customizable so it can accomodate noobs and realism junkies. Get over it already.

Edited December 14, 2009 by MadDogX

[JSj 12]

I would get over it if you could just turn it off without losing other important functions of the game (missile lock indication, laser designator on/off indication).

After dropping all arcade shooters and only playing realistic games for the past several years (like for instance WWII Online) I never thought I'd have to see an arcade style crosshair in a game ever again. So I was very dissapointed with this when I picked up Arma 2.

But again, this would have been just a minor nuisance if you could just turn it off for rifles and handguns without it affecting other equipment.

[whisper 0]

But again, this would have been just a minor nuisance if you could just turn it off for rifles and handguns without it affecting other equipment.

Then, again, ask for the correct change, ie a more customizable crosshair, instead of plain removal.

Again, A2 is not about realism, it just appears to be amongst the most realistic on the market, but it's not its main goal. You have a wrong view on the product, I'm afraid

[maddogx 13]

I would get over it if you could just turn it off without losing other important functions of the game (missile lock indication, laser designator on/off indication).

I guess you're right about the missing indicators. That is an issue that has been brought to the attention of the devs, so hopefully they'll have done something about it by the time they release v1.05.

[JSj 12]

Of course a game can't be all about the maximum possible realism. That would mean sitting out in the field cold and freezing, waiting for hours or days at a time. Nobody wants to play a game like that.

But Arma 2 IS a military simulation, not an action game. That means it's trying to be as realistic as possible, within limits. And that means no arcade style crosshair.

MadDog, I'm sure you are right. BIS is doing a great job supporting their products, so this will certainly be fixed.

[enforcer1975 0]

I liked the alternative ones ( vet mode ) you could use in ACE for A1. Very thin crosshairs yet visible enough to show where your weapon is pointing.

@Daniel

I agree, but with TrackIR and a virtual body it's a bit more difficult imho if you don't have a feel like in RL where your gun is pointing and where your head is looking atm. :D

At least one should have an indicator where the head is pointed compared to the body like when you are sitting in a tank ( turret to chassis in the upper left corner ).

[whisper 0]

Of course a game can't be all about the maximum possible realism. That would mean sitting out in the field cold and freezing, waiting for hours or days at a time. Nobody wants to play a game like that.

But Arma 2 IS a military simulation, not an action game. That means it's trying to be as realistic as possible, within limits. And that means no arcade style crosshair.

VR Engine goal is about scale and openness. Not realism. Like I said, would it be a realistic product, it would be ACE2 right out of the box, and we would have lost much in terms of moddability and scale.

And the game is not ACE. So, no, we should definitely not remove options, we should ADD more. This would go in the direction of the game.

[Daniel 0]

I liked the alternative ones ( vet mode ) you could use in ACE for A1. Very thin crosshairs yet visible enough to show where your weapon is pointing.

@Daniel

I agree, but with TrackIR and a virtual body it's a bit more difficult imho if you don't have a feel like in RL where your gun is pointing and where your head is looking atm. :D

At least one should have an indicator where the head is pointed compared to the body like when you are sitting in a tank ( turret to chassis in the upper left corner ).

Good point on TrackIR, bet that does make it harder. Would have to test.

[jw custom 56]

we should definitely not remove options, we should ADD more. This would go in the direction of the game.

They could add heat seeking bullets for all i care as long as host/server have the ability to force it off :)

[xxbbcc 6]

Why is it you feel that you and others should take it upon themselves to dictate to others what game options they can and cannot have? I have found that in the gaming world the people that set all these rules and dictate specific criteria like those that you mentioned. Tend to come from (in many cases not all) gamers that cannot stand the fact that there are gamers out there that they just cannot compete against. Since ArmA 2 is not really a game that is idea for competitive league play. What do you care what someone else see's on their screen? How does that in any way diminish you're immersion level? Because the game play options that they prefer allows him to get more kills than you in the server that you're in? Maybe if you quit worrying about the settings that other players are using you could focus on what it is that you are doing. And as for all of you "die hard realism" players out there. It's a f*#king video game, Rather than live in pretend world. Go and enlist in the Marine Corps. Was the first thing I did when I graduated High school.

Ha ha ha, finally someone said it so many words.

[johncage 30]

if it's a realistic game with modeled ballistics, damage, etc, why retain such a glaringly unrealistic feature such as cross hairs? that always baffled me as well.

some unrealistic features are necessary to maintain a semblance of gameplay and fun, but crosshairs stand out like a sore thumb.

[ActionMan 10]

if it's a realistic game with modeled ballistics, damage, etc, why retain such a glaringly unrealistic feature such as cross hairs? that always baffled me as well.

some unrealistic features are necessary to maintain a semblance of gameplay and fun, but crosshairs stand out like a sore thumb.

In RL, if I'm holding a gun or a pointing device (not looking down a sight), I can think "I want to point this at that target over there" and move my arms in a best-guess effort to carry out that action. This is what the crosshair represents!

By putting the crosshair over a bad guy, I'm telling the game "I'd like you to move my virtual arms so that my gun is somewhat pointing at him".

This method of communicating with the game itself isn't a problem -- it's only a problem if it's 100% accurate. In RL if I do this without using a sight I'll likely be off by quite a few degrees.

In Arma2, the crosshair system seems to be a lot more accurate than in Op Flashpoint.

In flashpoint, putting the crosshair on someone (without using your sight) really did feel like you were trying to aim, but only doing as best you can without a sight.

In Arma2 the gun actually hits where the crosshair is pointing, whether you're using a sight or not.

I see no problem with being able to tell the game what I'm trying to point at, it's only unrealistic if "try and point at this" means "point at this exactly" (which, it seems it does in Arma2) :p

But as has been said a million times already, go into the difficulty screen and disable them if it makes the game too easy for you!!!

[Nutlink 10]

I don't mind the crosshairs in the game. I just wish they weren't so damn accurate. Moving the ][ further apart and removing the bead would be perfect IMO. Still I don't see why some are up in arms over it....

[JSj 12]

In RL if I do this without using a sight I'll likely be off by quite a few degrees.

Kind of like what happens when you aim in the game without a crosshair. Somewhat accurate, at least at close range, but off by quite a few degrees. Which is why a crosshair is unnecessary, in addition to the fact that a floating crosshair in the middle of your field of view is totally unrealistic and destroys immersion.

[[asa]oden 0]

Kind of like what happens when you aim in the game without a crosshair. Somewhat accurate, at least at close range, but off by quite a few degrees. Which is why a crosshair is unnecessary, in addition to the fact that a floating crosshair in the middle of your field of view is totally unrealistic and destroys immersion.

You totally hate respawn too, don't you?

Thing is, some ppl like crosshair, they even like respawn, so why would they be forced to play as you prefer?

Just play on highest level and avoid Javelin, I'm sure missing the Jav can't be a total showstopper (since it is way off in fire simulation anyway and must be a total immersion killer for you).

You know, sandbox games like ArmA is not the same to all - you and I obviously have very different view on what ArmA is.