Sniper rifle & ACOG scope ranging (mil dots) and sniper training maps?

[i3lueHorneT 10]

Used the search function and didn't see anything, forgive me if I've missed it.

I'm looking for scope ranging (where the bullet hits at various ranges) info for all the sniper rifles in the game (and the M16 ACOG), as well as some info on the rifle itself (pros, cons, etc.), something along the lines of this: "The Arma M24 sniper" ( http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2255106&page=1#Post2255106 ).

I'm also interested in sniper ranges and training maps, I've heard there were some good ones for ArmA but haven't found anything for the sequel.

Some info on mil dots:

A fairly detailed writeup on mil dots: ( http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/mildot.htm )

Shooter Ready - Training course and long range shooting simulation: ( http://www.shooterready.com/mildot.html )

Thanks.

[Snowwhite 10]

Finaly, someone else besides me asking himself why in gods name this game doesnt have one by default.

I'm trying to build one bud and U'll be the first I'll share it with but I need to know how to measure target placement. For instance targets at 100,500 and 1000m.

[shataan 1]

Same here. And am also wondering why ACOG scope can`t magnify in increments 1x 2x 3x 4x by the user. I absolutely hate the deathdot for milcombat game engagements. Especially games where the A.I. can and do make hits on you drom distances outside of the deathdot range.

[galzohar 31]

wondering why ACOG scope can`t magnify in increments 1x 2x 3x 4x by the user

Because they can't IRL. Google is your friend.

And yes, everything mentioned in the OP is totally lacking here. The mildots aren't even mildots, at least for M107 they change their size when you zoom in. I don't know what scope they put on the M107 that allows such zoom but the way the M107 scope's zoom is not realistic no matter what scope model they used. For M24 I hadn't measured the mildots size and FOV, so it could be either right or wrong.

The linked guide is kind of "off", if you assume the mildot size and range is correct, then you get a person's height vary anwhere from 2.2m to 1.6m as range increases. According to their 300m values a man is actually 2.4m high but their image is off (bottom line is much lower than the feet). Also it's generally better to use shoulder width as a measurement, as often people don't stand up straight or you can't see their entire body, but if they're in front of you using an average shoulder width of 45cm or even a head+helm length of 25cm (iirc) usually works.

Edited July 3, 2009 by galzohar

[cartier90 0]

With the M24 - I tested at 1k and 500m, 2 and 4 mil dots respectively. Meaning that in Arma a human is 2m tall ? - the close 500m view was perhaps literally 1 pixel less than 4 mil dots, indicating 1.90 plus, a little tall no ?

- tested again, pic is at exactly 500m - seems reasonable accuracy..4 mil dots equal 2 m at this range

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4821/500m.jpg

OFP units were to short.

Edited July 3, 2009 by cartier90

[galzohar 31]

Just to verify, make sure you use center-of-mildot to center-of-mildot, or better, edge-of-mildot to edge-of-mildot. The diameter of a proper mildot is 0.2 mil, so if you neglect it you will get your results off by at least 0.2 mil which is enough to put a man in the 1.8 area.

If at 1000m a man is exactly touching the edges of your top and bottom mildots at the same time, then he's actually 1.8 mils which means 1.8m.

This is all very sensitive, really, and is probably not very accurate with a monitor. They should really let us zoom in on the scope picture (stretching it, not zooming the scope more) as I've already recommended in many threads. Then if a scope actually has multiple zoom modes, you'll switch between them in a different way, just like you switch between semi/auto (if it's discrete zoom). Continuous zoom where appropriate would obviously be nicer, but currently nothing in the game has it so it would require a totally new control scheme (that is, it's not just a scope issue).

[cartier90 0]

sure, centre to centre , my pic shows sub 4 mil dots centre to centre - so looks like fairly accurate, though tall civ.

[akd42 10]

Same here. And am also wondering why ACOG scope can`t magnify in increments 1x 2x 3x 4x by the user. I absolutely hate the deathdot for milcombat game engagements. Especially games where the A.I. can and do make hits on you drom distances outside of the deathdot range.

As mentioned, the RCO is a fixed 4x magnification optic. However, it is usable as a 1x sight in real life due to something called the Bindon Aiming Concept, which I can't see being translated into the game (go to www.trijicon.com if you want to know more). The ACOG reticle in the game is very simple (although not correct for the RCO). The center crosshair is 100m, followed by 200m, 300m, 400m and 500m stadia lines below. 600m is the top of the thicker vertical crosshair. The width of the stadia lines (or the width of the thicker vertical line at 600m) corresponds to the width of an average man's shoulders at the respective distance. So if the 300m stadia line spans the shoulders of a target, the target is at 300m.

The game does not model the various advantages of an ACOG. It is really just a fixed 4x scope with a bullet drop compensation reticle, which is kind of crap.

Edited July 3, 2009 by akd42

[shataan 1]

Yup. Back in Delta Force 2s day, we had an inscope range finder, and adjusted the bullet drop accordingly. Aaah those were the days. ;p

[galzohar 31]

The bindon concept, as I understand it, as that the red dot reticule on some ACOG models allows you to keep both eyes open, so 1 eye sees a magnified view and the other sees a regular view. It does take some getting used to though, and is nearly impossible to simulate in a game. Even simulating 2-eye open shooting with a basic reflex sight like the aimpoint or eotech is nearly impossible if the weapon is modeled in 3D in 1st person view, and even with 2D the effect doesn't look too great.

I wasn't sure what the size of the lines of the in-game ACOG model were. Nice to know they're shoulder width at the appropriate range (the ACOGs we had when I served were different models).

[akd42 10]

The bindon concept, as I understand it, as that the red dot reticule on some ACOG models allows you to keep both eyes open, so 1 eye sees a magnified view and the other sees a regular view. It does take some getting used to though, and is nearly impossible to simulate in a game. Even simulating 2-eye open shooting with a basic reflex sight like the aimpoint or eotech is nearly impossible if the weapon is modeled in 3D in 1st person view, and even with 2D the effect doesn't look too great.

I wasn't sure what the size of the lines of the in-game ACOG model were. Nice to know they're shoulder width at the appropriate range (the ACOGs we had when I served were different models).

More or less. The lack of a bright aiming point would make the in-game reticle difficult to use in this manner. As I understand it, that is why the RCO needs a bright red chevron as part of its reticle. Nothing really special about the ACOG other than that when it comes to this method. Red dot style sights are still faster at close range.

Human vision is based upon a binocular (two eyes) presentation of visual evidence to the brain. The word binocular literally means using both eyes at the same time. We most often associate this word with binocular instruments such as field glasses or a binocular microscope. These instruments specifically strive to present the object to be viewed the same way to both eyes.

Vision research material was examined for its assistance to understand the optically aided weapon aiming process. Three major types of optical enhancement were compared. There are strong customer preferences in reticle designs, some simple reticles enhance the speed of target acquisition, others allow for greater precision in a given time limit.

The simple substitution of a bright red dot for the usual cross-hairs makes it very easy to keep both eyes open. Just as in the Single point or Armson O.E.G. sighting, the brain merges the two images. During dynamic movement, the scene through the telescope blurs because the image moves more rapidly due to magnification. The one eye sees the bright dot against the blurred target scene, so the brain picks the scene from the unaided eye. The shooter swings the weapon towards the target while perceiving the dot indicating where the weapon is pointed. As soon as the weapon begins to become steady in the target area, the brain switches to the magnified view.

A long search was made to try to combine the speed and non-battery features of the Singlepoint or Armson with the precision of the telescopic system. This discovery was made several years ago. Trijicon has sponsored research in the field of human vision to better understand this generic phenomenon. Although the study concentrated on the Armson O.E.G., some aspects are applicable also to the Bindon Aiming Concept.

http://www.trijicon.com/pdfs/bac.wmv

Here's what we should have on our M16a4s:

http://chemicaldragon.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/TA31F_ACOG_TRAINING.344110115.ppt

[galzohar 31]

Not sure about what the in game model should be, but it's definitely one of the red dot models, due to the red "stripe" on top of the scope that's supposed to "collect" light to illuminate the dot during the day (the dot is also illuminated with no outside light sources but it's so faint you only see it at night, which is good because that's when your "regular" dot doesn't work due to no outside light sources).

[FreeFire 10]

Hello to all, i saw you guys are looking for a guide. Well is one now.

6th Sense Deadeye Guide, check my signature for the link ;)

[CarlGustaffa 4]

In ACE the red "stripe" fiberoptic to collect light is working on their RCOs. The red chevron will adjust its brightness. Just as russian PSO scopes will vary from black during the day to glowing red in the dark. Love that little functionality :) Can't even remember what is vanilla behavior. Just checked and vanilla PSO is light sensitive too, nice...

On any mil dot based scope, you have to zoom in to take a mil dot reading if it has a zoom capability. On mil dot scopes that have no zoom, the reticle is already calibrated for that.

Should reticle change size when you zoom? Depends on weather the reticle is on the front focal plane or the rear focal plane, so its not a fixed rule. But as long as you remember to zoom to take measurements, it doesn't really matter. It's an engine limitation that is easy to live with.

@akd42: Great information, downloaded and will be shared to my squad. That is the one you get if you play with ACE, at least so far, and hopefully it will stay that way at least for the M16s.

Edited December 30, 2009 by CarlGustaffa

[JSj 12]

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=80754

[lakai 10]

More or less. The lack of a bright aiming point would make the in-game reticle difficult to use in this manner. As I understand it, that is why the RCO needs a bright red chevron as part of its reticle. Nothing really special about the ACOG other than that when it comes to this method. Red dot style sights are still faster at close range.

Here's what we should have on our M16a4s:

http://chemicaldragon.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/TA31F_ACOG_TRAINING.344110115.ppt

I have a TA31-RCO on one of my ar15's. LOVE IT. RCO is the same as the regular ta31f. only difference is the killflash and it has ranging that goes left to right.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

one of my ar15's.

Sure made me giggle :D

[shataan 1]

I`d still like to see wind effected trajectory, and manual ZOOM and elevation setting of the ACOGs. Novalogics Delta Force 2 had this way back when?

[jasonnoguchi 11]

@Shataan, manual zoom? I have never seen an ACOG with manual zoom functions in RL... only fixed zoom.

[76 0]

Well most of you have been around long enough to know of 'Dev-Heaven'..... ffs use it, it has a purpose and that is for YOU to report issues or features that will improve the game for all.

Edited January 4, 2010 by 76

[shataan 1]

So ACOGS are set at 4X max zoom always? Didn`t know that. In DF 2, we could set the amount of zoom magnification, 1x on up to 4x. Anyways, still a big fan of wind effected trajectory. , along with the bullet drop. But I can live with just the bullet drop. ;p

[JSj 12]

ACE 2 has wind deflection, if you're not using that mod, you should. Totally awesome piece of work, I can't see why anyone would want to play without it.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

For all rifles, not just sniper rifles. Even on forced 10m/s crosswind, don't expect first time hits on a man target 300m away using an ACOG. Starting to get realistic here :)

[galzohar 31]

Unless the wind is quite strong, hitting a target at 300m with an acog should be rather trivial, at least in when prone. ACE adds too much weapon inaccuracy (even 100m hits are difficult, not because it's hard to aim but because weapons have ridicules dispersion), and doesn't add enough weapon sway (it's still almost as easy to put your sights on a target when standing as it is when prone, while IRL the difference in difficulty is extreme).

Besides, implementing wind in a game to add realism and then add unrealistic means of evaluating wind is kinda pointless. IRL you'd estimate wind by looking at grass/trees/etc around the bullet's flight path, which is simply not possible with today's graphics. I don't see much point in implementing a realistic disadvantage you should have if you can't implement the realistic means of overcoming that disadvantage. It's sort of like implementing tanks without implementing AT weapons, and then implementing EMP weapons to the game to compensate.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

10m/s is about 20 knots, or 5 (Fresh breeze) on the beaufort scale: "Branches of a moderate size move. Small trees begin to sway." These "heavy winds" are about as "heavy" as Arma2 can produce by its own weather system. Anything more has to be forced using setWind, except all those other effects of wind will be missing.

Btw, grass do bend in the right direction in Arma2 :) You just need some extra wind boost to see it easily. Smoke is also an obvious giveaway, as is Shift-K in ACE :D Note also that winds downrange may differ from the shooters position. Meaning that "perfect countering" isn't possible, not by wet finger, not by wind meter, but maybe a trained sniper has better chance.

Personally I prefer the ACE dispersion over range accuracy. It generates firefights and better depicts the "stressfulness" (?) of the battlefield that is hard to impossible to achieve in a computer game.

Edit:

From a PDF manual I came across:

a. Fresh wind 200 m - POA is halfway between the centre and edge of the target.

b. Strong wind 200 m - POA is the edge of the target.

c. Fresh wind 300 m - POA is the edge of target.

d. Strong wind 300 m - POA is one target width from the centre of the target.

I don't know how well this translates to Arma2/ACE2 use, it just illustrates that wind is something you need to take into consideration, even at these "short" ranges. Also, it is not "much" of a problem, as winds in Arma2 are usually very low (unless forced).

Edited January 5, 2010 by CarlGustaffa