Russia urges us to explain nuclear plan

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm going to American websites, and grabbing as many fellow Americans as I can to come to this pathetic forum, so that for once we have the majority here, then we can all join in togehter and belittle and degrade your country<span id='postcolor'>

You feel like you can't deal me without your pals?

I'm flattered.

Now let's move on with this topic. I would like to ask..

It has been claimed here that Russia has sold nukes.

Who is in a position to decide, which country has a right

to own nukes?

[Hardliner 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Mar. 12 2002,09:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm not going to fight with you about this. Already done that. But I'm sure that somebody somewhere could explain the 9/11 thingy very nicely and also point out how many lives the attack actually helped to save. The thing is, the history is written by the winners and thus it is impossible to say just how many lives actually were saved, if any.

But of the ABC-weapons, the nukes are far worst. They kill a lot of people, but they also destroy the only real inheritance we give to our children: The genetic code. As far as I'm concerned, their first use can NEVER be justified.<span id='postcolor'>

I have to agree with this statement. And guess what? During the Korean war or one of the many wars that the US has fought a US general McCarther (if thats spelled right) made a plan to use nuclear weapons all over the country. Luckly the plan was looked at by Washington and was NOT accepted. Now don't go out taking the shit out of me because I know this really happened. How wonderful would the world be today if you americans just kept on nuking everyone you had trouble with? Let me remind you all that nuclear weapons has a devastating affect on the atmosphere and guess what? You NEED the atmosphere to survive! Radiation will kill you! But I guess most of you fools wouldn't know that! If this so called "contingancy" plan goes into affect... then may whatever god you believe in have mercy on your soul.

[Hardliner 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ Mar. 12 2002,09:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm going to American websites, and grabbing as many fellow Americans as I can to come to this pathetic forum, so that for once we have the majority here, then we can all join in togehter and belittle and degrade your country<span id='postcolor'>

You feel like you can't deal me without your pals?

I'm flattered.

Now let's move on with this topic. I would like to ask..

It has been claimed here that Russia has sold nukes.

Who is in a position to decide, which country has a right

to own nukes?<span id='postcolor'>

Alot of americans are just like this. The many ones I have come into contact with anyway. Its like the moment you say something they don't like they get their buddies and gang up on you with all kinds of insults. It always seems to be the americans that abuse people with "f*** off" and other such primitive insults. Also people that resort to vulger language like this usually are often frustrated and can't think of anything intelligent to say. Or maybe its just the way they were brought up.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Mar. 12 2002,09:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Mar. 12 2002,01:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and the Russians should be the last people to point a finger at anyone.. seeing as how for many years they were the Nuclear arms superstore for any 3rd world nuttjob with enough money to buy one..  <span id='postcolor'>

Yet the only nuttjob ever to have used nukes in anger is... U.S.  <span id='postcolor'>

Oh give me a break.

[Akira 0]

You people keep bringing up crap from the 40s and 50s,when there was absolutely shit known about the effects that nuclear weapons could have. Studies had started but results were not know.

You'll notice that after the full effect of nuclear weapons was know the US stopped thinking about dropping them everywhere like conventional bombs.

Jesus. Quit bringing up shit from 50-60 years ago.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hardliner @ Mar. 12 2002,17:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Mar. 12 2002,09:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm not going to fight with you about this. Already done that. But I'm sure that somebody somewhere could explain the 9/11 thingy very nicely and also point out how many lives the attack actually helped to save. The thing is, the history is written by the winners and thus it is impossible to say just how many lives actually were saved, if any.

But of the ABC-weapons, the nukes are far worst. They kill a lot of people, but they also destroy the only real inheritance we give to our children: The genetic code. As far as I'm concerned, their first use can NEVER be justified.<span id='postcolor'>

I have to agree with this statement. And guess what? During the Korean war or one of the many wars that the US has fought a US general McCarther (if thats spelled right) made a plan to use nuclear weapons all over the country. Luckly the plan was looked at by Washington and was NOT accepted. Now don't go out taking the shit out of me because I know this really happened. How wonderful would the world be today if you americans just kept on nuking everyone you had trouble with? Let me remind you all that nuclear weapons has a devastating affect on the atmosphere and guess what? You NEED the atmosphere to survive! Radiation will kill you! But I guess most of you fools wouldn't know that! If this so called "contingancy" plan goes into affect... then may whatever god you believe in have mercy on your soul.<span id='postcolor'>

isn't that whats great about america though ? We didn't nuke because someone in Washington said no.Blah ,russia would probably just nuke without even talking to people back in moscow.

[Grave 0]

No offence, but fuck, u people are dumb. Expecially u Wobble, u think like a retard I dont wanna debate on this because you dont even know what you are talking about and seem to know nothing about the world except you USA

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Grave @ Mar. 12 2002,21:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No offence, but fuck, u people are dumb. Expecially u Wobble, u think like a retard   I dont wanna debate on this because you dont even know what you are talking about and seem to know nothing about the world except you USA <span id='postcolor'>

That is hardly conducive to a discussion or debate. Not to mention blatent name calling of that sort is frowned upon (though common). Hell might even get you banned.

[MosquitoMkVI 0]

Quick question to Wobble:

How does one prove that every man woman and child would fight to the death if invaded? (I'd be interested to see how, really)

.</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">remember to the Japanese the Emporer was LITERALLY a living god, and their god said death is better than surrender.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, the Emperor was under acting under heavy pressure from the Japanese military, who did not consider him a god, or any other kind of supernatural deity! The Emperor, from what I recall, wanted out of the war the generals wanted to fight to the death!

PS: I am not debating the moral or ethical reasons behind the dropping of the bomb. Whether it was "right" or "wrong" to drop it is trivializing and oversimplifying the event!

[Pete 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ Mar. 12 2002,17:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">isn't that whats great about america though ? We didn't nuke because someone in Washington said no.Blah ,russia would probably just nuke without even talking to people back in moscow.<span id='postcolor'>

Russia never nuked anyone....how about your nation?

its either that they talk to moscow (kreml?) a lot or that they just see nukes as a last resort to defend there country.

all russians/sovjets did, usa/nato did also....it was not a battle betweem good and bad, it was just a battle between bad and bad....however, i expect many to disagree (dont bother, i mean that as "globally" and not how many tv's the citizens had).

anyways...what does bother me is not the contignency plan...its the development of smaller nukes that are to be used at targets that can survive normal bombs.....in other words, it looks as if usa IS thinking usage of nukes as a acceptable method of warfaring.

i quess that its untill someone nukes there backyard...mmmmm

i am not completely sure, but if i remember right russia/sovjet had a nuclear doctrine that was atleast recently to use nukes only to defend the nation from totall collapse, as a last resort.

usa has a more offensive nuclear doctrine, i dont remember the facts anymore, but if someone could look them up for me id be gratefull, i am curious to see them again.

[Thehamster 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Mar. 12 2002,16:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You people keep bringing up crap from the 40s and 50s,when there was absolutely shit known about the effects that nuclear weapons could have. Studies had started but results were not know.

You'll notice that after the full effect of nuclear weapons was know the US stopped thinking about dropping them everywhere like conventional bombs.

Jesus. Quit bringing up shit from 50-60 years ago.<span id='postcolor'>

Yep but did they learn...nope they sprayed Agent Organge all over Vietnam yep that turned do more just kill plant life didn't it.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Thehamster @ Mar. 12 2002,22:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Mar. 12 2002,16:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You people keep bringing up crap from the 40s and 50s,when there was absolutely shit known about the effects that nuclear weapons could have. Studies had started but results were not know.

You'll notice that after the full effect of nuclear weapons was know the US stopped thinking about dropping them everywhere like conventional bombs.

Jesus. Quit bringing up shit from 50-60 years ago.<span id='postcolor'>

Yep but did they learn...nope they sprayed Agent Organge all over Vietnam yep that turned do more just kill plant life didn't it.<span id='postcolor'>

Agent Orange had nothing to do with nuclear weapons. Was suppose to be a defoliate....just like DDT, a civilian pesticide. Only LATER was it discovered that these had harmful side effects...

And that was 40 years ago.

[madmike 0]

Ok what about the uraniam(spelling) thats all over Afganistan from unexploded bombs.

I bet you will say will they put minefields all over there country so it doesnt matter and its a $hit hole anyway

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Mar. 12 2002,23:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok what about the uraniam(spelling) thats all over Afganistan from unexploded bombs.

I bet you will say will they put minefields all over there country so it doesnt matter and its a $hit hole anyway<span id='postcolor'>

Guess it goes to show that you obviously don't know me if you think I would say that.

I have never said Afghanistan is a shithole. I have never said that about ANY country.

I assume you are talking about depleted uranium used for better penetrating effects of bullets, bombs, etc etc etc.

Dunno about that effect. Read somewhere that the amount in each weapon is not enough to worry about contamination. But I don't know much about it so won't venture a guess.

[madmike 0]

No I was only joking about that

Well the small problem could be people taking live DU rounds for sovourniors (thats spelt wrong, I failed English ).

But there isnt any proof that it can cuase any medical problems.

Last year the british army were taking it very serious though. I went to a vehicle distrubution Base and there was a hanger with about 5 challenger tanks that were marked with tape and had contamination signs all around them.

But I know sweet FA about DU

[Thehamster 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Mar. 12 2002,22:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Thehamster @ Mar. 12 2002,22:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Mar. 12 2002,16:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You people keep bringing up crap from the 40s and 50s,when there was absolutely shit known about the effects that nuclear weapons could have. Studies had started but results were not know.

You'll notice that after the full effect of nuclear weapons was know the US stopped thinking about dropping them everywhere like conventional bombs.

Jesus. Quit bringing up shit from 50-60 years ago.<span id='postcolor'>

Yep but did they learn...nope they sprayed Agent Organge all over Vietnam yep that turned do more just kill plant life didn't it.<span id='postcolor'>

Agent Orange had nothing to do with nuclear weapons. Was suppose to be a defoliate....just like DDT, a civilian pesticide. Only LATER was it discovered that these had harmful side effects...

And that was 40 years ago.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm talking about the poisious effects it had on humans.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Mar. 12 2002,17:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jesus. Quit bringing up shit from 50-60 years ago.<span id='postcolor'>

Only problem with that is that history has a nasty habit of repeating itself.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Thehamster @ Mar. 13 2002,00:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Mar. 12 2002,22:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Thehamster @ Mar. 12 2002,22:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Mar. 12 2002,16:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You people keep bringing up crap from the 40s and 50s,when there was absolutely shit known about the effects that nuclear weapons could have. Studies had started but results were not know.

You'll notice that after the full effect of nuclear weapons was know the US stopped thinking about dropping them everywhere like conventional bombs.

Jesus. Quit bringing up shit from 50-60 years ago.<span id='postcolor'>

Yep but did they learn...nope they sprayed Agent Organge all over Vietnam yep that turned do more just kill plant life didn't it.<span id='postcolor'>

Agent Orange had nothing to do with nuclear weapons. Was suppose to be a defoliate....just like DDT, a civilian pesticide. Only LATER was it discovered that these had harmful side effects...

And that was 40 years ago.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm talking about the poisious effects it had on humans.<span id='postcolor'>

DDT is poison to humans too.American soldiers also got sick because of agent orange,lots of them got cancer.

[foxer 0]

pete your right,they shouldn't try make any small nukes.They should just use flame throwers if the fools don't wanna come out.

I think usa plan is if they get invaded and looks like their losing they will fire the nukes,or it could be just if they get invaded they can fire the nukes.Probably the first one.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Lets put it this way. Nukes should never have seen the light of day. But they did. USA and Russia have enough to shake and bake Earth a few thousand times. However, US keeps its nukes locked down tighter than a dog in heat. Russia went through a phase where they "lost" some nukes. You dont just "lose" a warhead that can kill a million people. And yes, there is a BIG difference between sharing your technology with allies (like the US did) and selling your technology to the highest bidder when you are strapped for cash (like the USSR did). I suggest people look for a better explanation than "its the USAs fault" on every single damn issue, INCLUDING nuclear proliferation.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 13 2002,02:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Russia went through a phase where they "lost" some nukes. You dont just "lose" a warhead that can kill a million people.<span id='postcolor'>

It's quite possible in any country to loose any sort of military equipment when the government is collapsing and the whole civilian/military command structure is in complete chaos, like the USSR was during it's collapse. Hell I'm impressed that during that phase no one pushed the little red button.

[Grave 0]

Can you please give me evidence where Russia lost a warhead that can kill a million people please.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

http://www.odci.gov/csi/books/19335/16526pdffiles/NIE11-30-91C.pdf

requires Adobe Acrobat Reader.

It is a Declassified CIA report onthe general breakdown of the Soviet?Russian Military. Parts of it have been censored, because they are still classified. Read through it, and tell me, that in that atmosphere where local commanders were scrounging for enough supplies and pay to keep their soldiers from deserting, that a nuke or two didnt get "lost"? This coupled with reports of Soviet nukes being lost paints an interesting picture.

Of course Im cant give you any documented proof of these exchanges. Do you honestly think the people and organisations involved would be stupid enough to write their dealings down? They know that if NATO got wind of anything more substantial than anecdotal evidence of the existence of a "Rogue Spear", they would have the combined militaries of the North Atlantic coming after them. Also, even if, say, America got evidence of a loose nuke, do you think they would go around posting the shit on the INTERNET? This would not only compromise their source, but it would probably spark mass panic. Look, maybe the USSR never sold anthing as a nation. but do you think that if a Russian CO, struggling to "pay the bills", was approached by, oh, I dont know, Saddam Hussein, who offered enough cash to either line the COs pockets or keep his company paid and supplied for a few months, if only he can walk away with a warhead. Then, the CO reports that the warhead was "lost".

Go ahead, and ask for color photos plus commentary of these events, but, lets face it, you can draw your own conclusions.

Anyhow, my original point was that you should examine what might be happenin in your own country before you go accusing another guy of "nuclear proliferation"

[WisdoM 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 13 2002,01:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">http://www.odci.gov/csi/books/19335/16526pdffiles/NIE11-30-91C.pdf

requires Adobe Acrobat Reader.

It is a Declassified CIA report onthe general breakdown of the Soviet?Russian Military. Parts of it have been censored, because they are still classified. Read through it, and tell me, that in that atmosphere where local commanders were scrounging for enough supplies and pay to keep their soldiers from deserting, that a nuke or two didnt get "lost"? This coupled with reports of Soviet nukes being lost paints an interesting picture.

Of course Im cant give you any documented proof of these exchanges. Do you honestly think the people and organisations involved would be stupid enough to write their dealings down? They know that if NATO got wind of anything more substantial than anecdotal evidence of the existence of a "Rogue Spear", they would have the combined militaries of the North Atlantic coming after them. Also, even if, say, America got evidence of a loose nuke, do you think they would go around posting the shit on the INTERNET? This would not only compromise their source, but it would probably spark mass panic. Look, maybe the USSR never sold anthing as a nation. but do you think that if a Russian CO, struggling to "pay the bills", was approached by, oh, I dont know, Saddam Hussein, who offered enough cash to either line the COs pockets or keep his company paid and supplied for a few months, if only he can walk away with a warhead. Then, the CO reports that the warhead was "lost".

Go ahead, and ask for color photos plus commentary of these events, but, lets face it, you can draw your own conclusions.

Anyhow, my original point was that you should examine what might be happenin in your own country before you go accusing another guy of "nuclear proliferation"<span id='postcolor'>

Man, they are just gonna tell you its BS after they read it. According to them anything that comes out of the U.S. governemns mouth is lie. So being that its a CIA report, they wont even consider it. I'm glad to see we as Americans AREN'T as cocky stuck-up pricks like they make us out to be, it would appear the majority of them are like that, not us! And we are the closed-minded ones?

[WisdoM 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Grave @ Mar. 12 2002,15:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No offence, but fuck, u people are dumb. Expecially u Wobble, u think like a retard   I dont wanna debate on this because you dont even know what you are talking about and seem to know nothing about the world except you USA <span id='postcolor'>

Thanks for showing us why we aren't what you say we are