Proper damage models?

[Tarnish 0]

As with Operation Flashpoint/Resistance and ArmA before it I made sure I had ArmA 2 in my possession as soon as was possible. On the whole I'm very impressed indeed, the optimisation of the engine means that I can have ArmA 2 running at much higher graphical settings that I can with ArmA and especially OFP. Even though my present PC is many times more powerful than the PC I had in June 2001 when OFP was released there's still no way I can run OFP at max chat! So great work there BIS. Also the feel of the landscape is much more organic and believeable than it ever was before, all round despite the usual bugs one expects with a new BIS release the game feels on the whole right to me.

However as my title indicates there is still one thing that really does rankle me here in 2009; namely the lack of vehicle damage models of a reasonable fidelity.

With the rest of the game striving for and arguably achieving many of its aims in regards to realism I find it lamentable that the same damage point system that was present in OFP eight years ago is still featured in ArmA 2.

Now I'm not expecting a high resolution model as found say in Battleground Europe (World War 2 Online) but something that at least recognises that the frontal armour of a main battle tank cannot be worn down by repeated hits from small arms projectiles or even multiple hits from a HEAT warhead of insufficent power the penetrate that particular level of armour protection.

All I'm hoping is come the release of ArmA 3 BIS will hopefully have seen fit to include more realistic damage models for the vehicles and aircraft.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Tarnish

[no use for a name 0]

well, from what I've seen (i could be wrong) is that Arma2 still uses the hitpoint based system; but it's dependent on where you're hit and with what. i.e. you shoot a tank in the front it will lose hitpoints but not as many as if you hit it in the side or turret.

Like I said this is just my take, it could be different

[Beagle 684]

The damage system is much better than ever.

btw. Hitpoint based damage System are still very common in so called "hardcore simulations". It all depend on how much "damage boxes" you have.

ArmA2 simply has more of this boxes than OFP or ArmA had.

IMHO Good enough to do the job.

[Tarnish 0]

Oh yes it "does the job" as you say but a hit points based system still doesn't allow for the fact that if a certain projectile/missile cannot penetrate a particular level of armour then it NEVER will not matter how many times it hits at the same point.

I'm given to recall the story of a British Army Challenger 2 that got itself bogged down in soft ground near Basra a few years ago and got pounded by insurgents. It took numerous RPG hits to the hull and turret and countless small arms rounds but not a single breach of the armour occurred and all four crew members got home safely. You could never have a similar scenario in OFP/ArmA/ArmA2 as given enough hit with any weapon even a Challenger 2 would explode.

I just feel the that ArmA franchise as a whole deserves more that a hit point system and and also a less simplified tank gunnery system would be good too. I guess I could also lump a higher fidelity flight model in there too along with the ability to individually arm aircraft prior to a mission rather than have set weapon loadouts for an individual model.

I recognise that ArmA 2 is not nor should it be a high resolution simulation of every system on the battlefield but a little more realism here and there (as with the vast improvement to parachuting) would really be a positive addition to the game. Game design is a balancing act and I sure BIS made decisions that to them seemed right I just hope for an improvement in these areas as time goes by.

In the meantime I know for a fact I'm going to really enjoy ArmA 2.

Edited June 28, 2009 by Tarnish

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Also, the hit point system means it doesn't take many WP rounds to destroy a T72. Or even a house structure for that matter :) Hence, I don't think it "does the job".

[arma2mods 10]

There is plenty of people who would be liked A2 better if it had kept OFP GFX and instead focussing of audio visual aspect would much more enchanced the functional/simulational part of engine. With time I would recommend that BIS will envelope special branch/entity/team of developers just concenterating of making game much more further progress on those issues.

There certainly isnt that many modern war sims with having FPS aspect too and I am looking for all-in-one packet, not separated games of subsims that 80-90s were very full of.

I would be on line first if your looking for any advisors although my inconsistency on syntax.

[Heatseeker 0]

Its better, true.

For example car windows take individual damage now, this might sound like a small thing but i had many moments of frustration in Arma 1 where a single shot to any window would shatter all the glass and make it impossible to see in 1st person view.

Tires no longer turn to rust and car class is still serviceable with flat tires, unless you loose the whole wheel, works for the a.i. too.

Also, you might have noticed that theres plenty of rocket propelled grenade types, its possible to make it easier or harder to defeat armour, its up to the mission maker to balance it out (the SMAW is a noob tube).

[spamurai 3]

ArmA also utilizes a "threshold" variable that limits how much damage a certain type of projectile does against certain types of objects. Projectiles which do not exceed the threshold inflict significantly less damage to a target. The number of hitpoints a machine gun takes off a civilian car is different then the number it takes off a Tank.

In theory, you can set a T72 on fire with the m160 machine gun, but the theshold ensures it will take an impractical amount of ammunition to do it.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Where is this threshold in the configs?

[Dogtags 0]

Its better, true.

For example car windows take individual damage now.

Wow

Have you tried shooting the glass in the airport control tower? can't break it, no holes, not even a scratch. Many house windows cannot be broken. I have even seen a house be destroyed by someone shooting out of a window, for some reason the house was still taking damage. Most non enterable houses have indistructable glass as well. Have you noticed that quite a few open door houses have an invisible blocking lump in front of the door so you rise up and cannot enter? WTF is that? Alien shit? Sorry I am getting frustrated by the unplayable nature of ARMA2 specifically in multiplayer...Receiving....anyone? and I have had a bad day at work, god my job sucks.

The issue is I believe that BIS are having to spend so much energy working out the graphical bugs that they don't have time to add in all the little detail that if they had done that would of made ARMA2 a monumental game of combat simulation although it would still have had outdated graphics. However the graphics can be updated in one hit over 2 years.

Anyway my 2c

[cartier90 0]

Surely tanks / vehicles, could be divided into more subsections, with the thicker armour values perhaps 100 times what they are. This would be a good approximation of the 'Challenger' armour, as realistically - few people would shoot a hundreds of RPGs at a target.

BTW,...

Are 'bullets' actually modelled in the game, as in a 3d model from the barrel ?, and is it affected by wind ?

[Yorke 10]

Are 'bullets' actually modelled in the game, as in a 3d model from the barrel ?, and is it affected by wind ?

yes bullets are affected by wind and gravity, but I dont think there are bullet models, I mean ricochete (bouncing bullet of) is possible, but its not because of an actuall model. like you cant bounce off sabot shell of steep angle of armor because the tip has cone shape, I think you cant bounce shells of armor at all... I'll try it now however...

and damage model for tanks is very good! it shouldn't be changed, you have weak points, you have treshhold... it is quite close to penetration model you propose, but yes, you might be right sometimes shell can penetrate right away, and sometimes it would have 10 unsuccessfull. but I think BIS should look more after impact angles, it might solve the problem.

I was surprised when during night you look in the headlights of a car, and then you get totally blind because of hdr and glow, and then when you shoot the headlights they really blow, and there's dark again! it was pretty cool for me, didnt see that before in arma!

and bullet holes on helicopters from AA or tanks look awesome!

[mr_centipede 31]

I dont think bullets are affected by wind.. they have trajectory, but not affected by the wind. Though wind is modelled in game and they affected the grass sway, tree sway and particles movement (smoke and dusts)

[Andi 10]

"Wind is the varmint shooter's greatest enemy" :D

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/RS_bulletvwind_200906/index.html