Does camouflage actually work against the AI?

[BF2_Trooper 0]

Does your camouflage pattern "hide" you from the AI? Does belly crawling under tall grass and other forms of concealment actually work? Or are the AIs all uber soldiers that can see you from miles away?

[Vampire1994 10]

It's off and on from my experience with Arma1. Sometimes I was able to crawl under a tank to place satchel charges, other times, I couldn't peak over a hilll while on my belly from 2000 meters away.

Maybe they fixed this in Arma2

[Binkowski 26]

I've been able to crawl around with the USMC Ghillie sniper in the forests at night, and not be spotted with patrols walking near me. However, when you shoot. It kinda goes out the window.

[BF2_Trooper 0]

I've been able to crawl around with the USMC Ghillie sniper in the forests at night, and not be spotted with patrols walking near me. However, when you shoot. It kinda goes out the window.

So the AI can be actually "fooled"? They actually "see" something that looks like plants and "think" it's a plant?

[Vampire1994 10]

Yeah, sometimes it works great - especially at a distance. But sometimes, the AI can just see you; especially close up in mid day regardless of camo. I don't know, maybe in real life people can just instantly pick people out from behind trees. I've never been in real combat so I can't compare. It's possible people just have that sixth sense to do the impossible.

But yeah, I've also had a problem where I find a good observation spot, and someone in multiplay comes up behind me, and fires a few rounds giving away my position! Next thing I know I'm getting all shot up because someone was on the field with no common sense.

[Binkowski 26]

Yeah, numerous times in ArmA1 and ArmA2 I've been picked off from a very far distance, not ever seeing the enemy, while laying prone, in bushes. It has its ups and downs.

[Second 0]

This is related to their behavior, or has been in OFP and ArmA. I dont' believe this would have been changed in ArmA2: If they are in safe mode you can crawl underneath their noses. If they are in danger mode they will spot your eyeballs thru grass at great distances.

[Alex72 1]

Switzerland mod and maybe others i think lowered the detection value for their ghillie snipers. Might have dreamt that, but i think i read that when someone asked cause i searched for it when i noticed i wasnt detected as much when using those sniper models.

[max power 21]

The AI does not see textures. It detects things based on line of sight and statistics values.

No, it does not see camouflage. It detects things based on values that tell it how easy something is to detect, given line of sight. Bushes may hide you, so may grass and/or the grass plane, depending on several factors. If the target is completely occluded by terrain or objects, the AI may still detect you via sound and may come looking for you. The world the AI interacts with is not the same as the one you interact with, though. The bush shapes and such are much simpler.

[dmakatra 1]

I don't know about ArmA2 because I have no experience of it yet, but the detection rules in OFP/ArmA are actually quite complex. I too thought the detection was bugged, or that the AI cheated, until I did some heavy testing a couple of years back and found out that there's so many different variables that come into the calculation that you sometimes get fooled into thinking that the AI is cheating when it's just being very complex.

As for camouflage. Well, it doesn't actually "work". IIRC, as it was a couple of years since I last did some serious testing, camouflage has nothing to do with the texture in itself. It's just represented by a value in the units config. So a unit in ghillie suit will be just as hard to spot by the AI if he's in a lush environment as if he's in a arctic environment. If the lightning and clutter around the unit is identical, that is.

EDIT: Ah, Max Power beat me to it.

[galzohar 31]

If you want to test if camouflages are simulated by the AI or not, you need to compare it to not wearing any. Just because they didn't notice you with camo, doesn't mean they would've noticed you without it. Usually if they don't notice you, as far as I can tell, is because they're simply in the so-called "safe" mode. Hard to tell if camo does anything, which probably means it doesn't.

Just as a side note, IRL concealment is 10X more important than camouflage. A barely visible target is usually much harder to spot than a huge camouflaged target.

[dreday 1]

Max Power is correct. On top of that, each unit has a comouflage value that is assigned to it. This value that effects the unit's detection by other units, just like a spotting value and a hearing value effect his detection of other units. Thus, a sniper (higher camo value) is much more difficult to spot than a regular grunt, but another sniper (higher spoting value) would be more likely to spot him compared to a regular grunt. The actual textures, shades, and camo patterns have absolutely nothing to do with this.

Peace,

DreDay

[koroush47 10]

Short answer... No

[galzohar 31]

Max Power is correct. On top of that, each unit has a comouflage value that is assigned to it. This value that effects the unit's detection by other units, just like a spotting value and a hearing value effect his detection of other units. Thus, a sniper (higher camo value) is much more difficult to spot than a regular grunt, but another sniper (higher spoting value) would be more likely to spot him compared to a regular grunt. The actual textures, shades, and camo patterns have absolutely nothing to do with this.

Peace,

DreDay

Short answer... No

Hmm the second is not really the short answer of the first... I'd like to see some tests though that show the existance of such a detection value and the effect camouflage has on it.

[dreday 1]

Hmm the second is not really the short answer of the first... I'd like to see some tests though that show the existance of such a detection value and the effect camouflage has on it.

You can unpack the PBOs containing the config for any unit. This value would be inside the config, unless of course it inherits it from the parent unit.

Peace,

DreDay

[malkuth 0]

No it doesn't. The AI can see you no matter what you wear, or what you do. You make the slightest movement or sound and they pinpoint you within 5 seconds and kill you.

Its that simple. The AI is too accurate and too deadly. And 75% of the time you have no idea what hit you or why.

Not saying it to be mean or berate the game. But it is a problem. And as soon as you actually play the game you will see what we are talking about.

[usmc123 1]

No it doesn't. The AI can see you no matter what you wear, or what you do. You make the slightest movement or sound and they pinpoint you within 5 seconds and kill you.

Its that simple. The AI is too accurate and too deadly. And 75% of the time you have no idea what hit you or why.

Not saying it to be mean or berate the game. But it is a problem. And as soon as you actually play the game you will see what we are talking about.

What is it with you and your divine hate for the AI? My experiences have been good with the AI, much better than anything from ArmA I. If you move after firing shots they have a hard time finding you, and if you hide behind bushes and trees because the AI sees everything without grass, because technically so can you if you turn terrain detail to very low.

[malkuth 0]

What is it with you and your divine hate for the AI? My experiences have been good with the AI, much better than anything from ArmA I. If you move after firing shots they have a hard time finding you, and if you hide behind bushes and trees because the AI sees everything without grass, because technically so can you if you turn terrain detail to very low.

Its not hate its the truth. Play the campaign. When you play missions that you don't build yourself and have no idea where the AI is you will see how accuarate it is.

The biggest problem is that they don't follow the same rules you do. IE when I'm looking for a guy, a man laying in the grass is almost impossible to see. EVEN WHEN CRAWLING And maybe even firing a few shots. The ground cover is done so well, and looks so good that it does its job vs a Human.

The AI on the other hand does not have that handicap that we do, IF you reverse the situation and lay in the grass.. Move your dead, shoot your dead. Do anything your dead. With a Human it takes a little bit to pinpoint where it came from etc. With the AI its Instant.

It needs to be changed. And don't even get me going on how dumb your squad mates are. They die, you lose the mission. If your playing a pre made one or campaign.

Its not hate, I just want it better, and more realistic.

[.kju 3245]

In short: only via config value camouflage.

[funnyguy1 0]

I remember seeing a camuflage value in the config. e.g. spec ops units were harder to spot in ArmA. Right? Cause it was

so long, it was so long ago

Ppl just need to stop complaining about the AI being too accurate, seeing through the foliage, knowing exactly where the player is from 1000 m. It's just bs and bunch of myths. Just learn to be more carefull and play less BF-ish. The camuflage value is there, so what. It doesn't mean that when playing as a sniper you're invisible, or 50% less visible.

Edited June 10, 2009 by funnyguy1

[whisper 0]

Once and for all : in this version of A2, hiding in grass is useless, AI does not see grass. BI is working on getting it working on further patch.

So stop crying with examples about trying to hide in open terrain in grass, and adapt (ie use the whole lot of cover left apart from grass)

AI sees bushes, trees, rocks, walls, and ofc buildings

When one of these elements blocks AI line of sight to you, when they also do not HEAR you moving or doing anything, and they never detected you before, you're not detected, simple.

When you're in line of sight of the AI, a calculation is made to check if AI sees you. This calculation takes many parameters into account, amongst which : your stance, the amount of knowledge the AI already has about you, the weather and fog, and a parameter depending on the type of unit you are (called "camouflage" in unit type definition in the configuration files), which acts a bit like a multiplier, making you hard to see or not. Sniper Ghillie suit have a good camouflage value, normal soldier skin does not.

Once a AI has seen you, it sets a number describing the amount of knowledge this unit has about you (it's called the "knowsAbout" factor, named after the script function available to check it) (in fact, the code behind is apparently much more complex than just the knowsAbout number, but this number reflects quite good what the AI knows of you), between 0 (knows nothing) and 4 (knows your exact position, speed, type, weaponry) if I remember well. As long as AI sees you, this number won't go lower.

Once you get hidden again, AI will try to keep you targeted by any mean. Using sound, for example, to track you. It will calculate your most probable position and movement based on what it saw you do last, and what they now hear/see.

You can see it at work when a group leader orders you to target something you can't see anymore. Often the red target clue will be moving behind some cover where the target hid, and reappear in full view.... alone, without the actual unit inside it. It's the AI trying to guess the unit position (and failing).

The whole time the AI doesn't see you, the knowsAbout factor will decrease, until it reaches a point where AI consider it lost track of you and go on other business

Edited June 10, 2009 by whisper

[andersson 285]

There is also communication between AI and AI groups that is quite complex. Cant remember what it was called, but I read something from BIS developers how it worked. It simulates AI using radio and other means to communicate. So the different AIs in the same group share info to find you.

[whisper 0]

From memory, it's the Center system

Too long away from OFP/ArmA :(

[lt_darkman 0]

Once and for all : in this version of A2, hiding in grass is useless, AI does not see grass. BI is working on getting it working on further patch.

So stop crying with examples about trying to hide in open terrain in grass, and adapt (ie use the whole lot of cover left apart from grass)

AI sees bushes, trees, rocks, walls, and ofc buildings

When one of these elements blocks AI line of sight to you, when they also do not HEAR you moving or doing anything, and they never detected you before, you're not detected, simple.

When you're in line of sight of the AI, a calculation is made to check if AI sees you. This calculation takes many parameters into account, amongst which : your stance, the amount of knowledge the AI already has about you, the weather and fog, and a parameter depending on the type of unit you are (called "camouflage" in unit type definition in the configuration files), which acts a bit like a multiplier, making you hard to see or not. Sniper Ghillie suit have a good camouflage value, normal soldier skin does not.

Once a AI has seen you, it sets a number describing the amount of knowledge this unit has about you (it's called the "knowsAbout" factor, named after the script function available to check it) (in fact, the code behind is apparently much more complex than just the knowsAbout number, but this number reflects quite good what the AI knows of you), between 0 (knows nothing) and 4 (knows your exact position, speed, type, weaponry) if I remember well. As long as AI sees you, this number won't go lower.

Once you get hidden again, AI will try to keep you targeted by any mean. Using sound, for example, to track you. It will calculate your most probable position and movement based on what it saw you do last, and what they now hear/see.

You can see it at work when a group leader orders you to target something you can't see anymore. Often the red target clue will be moving behind some cover where the target hid, and reappear in full view.... alone, without the actual unit inside it. It's the AI trying to guess the unit position (and failing).

The whole time the AI doesn't see you, the knowsAbout factor will decrease, until it reaches a point where AI consider it lost track of you and go on other business

Very informative post.

Thank you,

P

[KeyCat 131]

I don't have ArmA II yet (waiting for the 505 DVD) but follow these AI threads with great interest!

What is it with you and your divine hate for the AI?

Maybe you guys play with different settings on the skill level (both in editor and globally in .cfg)?

Also, I see some of you are performing these tests at max skill level and my opinion is that if you experince "to good" AI at that settings you can (hopefully) tone it down by lowering the skill level (again both in editor and globally in .cfg).

To me having "to good" AI at max skill level isn't a problem as long as it's possible to scale it down to a (for me) suitable level.

My suggestion is to do these test at mid (0.50) skill level (and maybe agree on what mid level settings really are). The goal would be to have the AI performing OK (i.e no uber hearing/sight/etc) at this mid level setting then people can scale it up/down to their own likings and thats whats called scalable.

Again, I do not have ArmA II yet but 19:th June is soon ;)

Just my 0.20 SEK!

/KC

Edited June 10, 2009 by KeyCat