A.C.E. Advanced Combat Environment Mod 2

[scubaman3D 0]

...and in an unforgiving game where your efforts can be dashed with one round from some random bush this can be extremely annoying.

Simply toning the effect down will fix it most of the time, so your soldier takes on the traits of an Olympic athlete, at least it's fun for all concerned.

I suggest that you allow soldiers to run a fair way with a heavy load, still have the weight carried be a factor, but allow ppl to move much further before slowing down dramatically and having a high amount of weapon sway, also blacking out is just a bad feature, get rid of it imo.

I hope you aren't suggesting that 1 shot should not be able to kill the player. But in any case, the wounding system in ACE makes the game more forgiving. In stark contrast to A1/ACE, playing ArmA2 in MP was far more frustrating from a wounding standpoint.

In addition, I can think of so few times in my MP play experience with ACE/shacktack when I fell down unconscious. You know why? We don't carry too much gear and we rest at regular intervals when marching. The times I did black out where when I was carrying a very heavy loadout and marching up a hill and refusing to rest - since, as you said, I am only sitting in a chair at my computer.

Fact is, a feature like this forces the player to change the way the game must be successfully played - and this is exactly what we wanted. We understand that not everybody will like this and not everybody has to. Those who do not like the style of gameplay that ACE affords, simply do not have to play it.

[Tonci87 163]

Good Answer. Haven´t played ACE 1 but i´m curious to experience the way the game has to be played with ACE2

[Thirdup 0]

Those who do not like the style of gameplay that ACE affords, simply do not have to play it.

Not entirely true. We simply disabled your "stamina" system in the previous ACE.

Your efforts with ACE2 will obviously reach more players if you allow (at least the server admis) the ability to toggle certain "reality" features. The attitude of "you'll play the way we want you to play, or you won't play at all" only caters to the elitists.

ACE2 could be something that that the entire ArmA2 community can enjoy....or it can be something for only the reality fanatics. I really hope the ACE team has a wider vision and is willing to accommodate more than one type of gameplay.

[JuggernautOfWar 1]

I'm a "reality fanatic" as you put it, so I'm fine with it. :) Although I've never blacked out BEFORE I fell down from running too long, even with 170 lbs of gear.

[Evil_Echo 11]

Explain to me how anyone who has not even tried the new stamina system has the right to flame ACE2. Several team members who know a lot more about the details have tried to be extremely patient in explaining that the stamina system has been rewritten, retuned, etc.

Yet a number of posters here continue to drag out ACE1 issues as reason to flame away, make accusations of elitism, document attempts to cripple the mod, etc.

The reason a number of developers have stopped posting here is because they are fed up with the BS. How many more do you want to drive off?

No one in ACE is expecting to be worshipped. We know our shortcomings in the past and trying really hard to deliver a quality ArmA2 product. Tearing it down before it's even out does nothing to help the project.

This talk of "customizing" the package via file removal needs to end as well. You have no idea of what interconnects exist in the new system. If a feature can be disabled then an option to do so will be provided.

After you try ACE2 then you have fair reason to criticize us if we screwed up. We'll try to fix it if something comes up. If you still hate ACE2 after that then it's best not to use it at all.

[PTV-Jobo 820]

Explain to me how anyone who has not even tried the new stamina system has the right to flame ACE2. Several team members who know a lot more about the details have tried to be extremely patient in explaining that the stamina system has been rewritten, retuned, etc.

Yet a number of posters here continue to drag out ACE1 issues as reason to flame away, make accusations of elitism, document attempts to cripple the mod, etc.

The reason a number of developers have stopped posting here is because they are fed up with the BS. How many more do you want to drive off?

No one in ACE is expecting to be worshipped. We know our shortcomings in the past and trying really hard to deliver a quality ArmA2 product. Tearing it down before it's even out does nothing to help the project

Amen!

[Thirdup 0]

I'm certainly not flaming ACE2. Nor am I critisizing it. I simply expressed hope that you guys are making it a bit flexible so it can be enjoyed by a larger number of players.

[subs17 9]

Errm, Subs, I am a combat vet and I know quite well what happens.

Your reference to BHD is invalid because a) Those guys were Rangers and Delta who train beyond what average soldiers do (excepting those that take it upon themselves to train on their own time instead of drinking) and b) they were not carrying full combat loads. Oh, and c) it was a movie, so unless you are going to demand ACE2 recreate The Matrix let's deal with real world examples.

The same individual can be affected differently depending on the circumstances as well. To give you an example from my own experiences: Once I was caught in an open area and a tracer round passed within six inches of my face, I was not affected by this at all, conversely another time, I was riding in the hatch of an armored vehicle. We were engaged and my weapon failed due to faulty ammunition. Although we had not come under accurate fire at the time, my blood went cold and it took a tremendous force of will not to jump out and run away screaming. Never felt that way before or since, but it happened. I've seen battle a hardened guy inexplicably faint at the mere mention of contact and I've seen guys pass out, never being remotely near exhaustion. I once watched a guy, an athlete no less, pitch over face first into cement while on a march and the only thing that had changed was he stretched his arms above his head.

The game cannot create for you a sense of the physiological and psychological experiences of your soldier but this is what ACE2 attempts to do. The difference being, these affects do not come unexpectedly and you are able to avoid them entirely. Perhaps the parameters could be adjusted somewhat (we won't know until we actually get to play it), maybe the effect could even vary slightly from soldier to soldier (to simulate varying degrees of health/fitness), but to say that it shouldn't happen at all is naive. There are a lot of factors that can contribute to an individual blacking out and in the end, they have to work within the limitations of the game.

IRL people do not black out because of running 50m nor do they blackout after running 10km. Its an overexagerated effect based on unrealistic fitness performance. IRL a soldiers fitness prior to going to war or any other type of deployment must be at a good level. The pschological aspects can be recreated in a game but its not done by this method. I used BHD as an example as that movie is based on a book which was a true story especially the end where the soldiers were running and being harrassed by the bad guys. Other things to consider are that all the character classes are of an unfit level especially the SF class. As an example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bravo_Two_Zero

I don't see anyone blacking out in this video either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L9nzk3co-M&feature=related

Although the effect of fitness in Arma is good the best I think is OFP as that had a limit as to how far you could push yourself. Ideally I would agree on a limit based on where your breathing rate is increased which effects your aim. You could go as far as falling over but I don't think black outs should be modeled as it simply does not happen from the running itself nor is it because you are carrying heavy weight normally its because a person is dehydrated or has heat exhaustion which can be prevented by fluid intake.:cool:

Just remember the effect we are talking about here is not what was going through your mind when a tracer flew past you its about fitness. As I mentioned there are other ways to model such effects in a game but this is not one of them. Also for ACE modellers note the above video the M72 was carried in the top of the bergen and had to be removed from the pack to use. Also small items like bandages, morphine maps etc aren't carried in ammo pouches so shouldn't take up space in the webbing.

Heres what I was talking about from BHD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lODIwbJA7MY&feature=PlayList&p=CC31EFEC908DAEA8&index=14

Edited October 15, 2009 by SUBS17

[jhoson14 10]

Guys stop complaning about the BlackOut.

The Devteam already sayd that a new system will come with ACE2.

W8 the mod to come out to see how it works and after that start arging if you dont like.

This is a ACE2 Discussion Thread not ACE1.

[subs17 9]

Explain to me how anyone who has not even tried the new stamina system has the right to flame ACE2. Several team members who know a lot more about the details have tried to be extremely patient in explaining that the stamina system has been rewritten, retuned, etc.

Yet a number of posters here continue to drag out ACE1 issues as reason to flame away, make accusations of elitism, document attempts to cripple the mod, etc.

The reason a number of developers have stopped posting here is because they are fed up with the BS. How many more do you want to drive off?

After you try ACE2 then you have fair reason to criticize us if we screwed up. We'll try to fix it if something comes up. If you still hate ACE2 after that then it's best not to use it at all.

This isn't about flaming anyone this is about suggesting how to make the most realsitic FPS even more realistic and I think the topic can be discussed without upsetting anyone.

[PuFu 4591]

This isn't about flaming anyone this is about suggesting how to make the most realsitic FPS even more realistic and I think the topic can be discussed without upsetting anyone.

That is IF you stay on topic...

And also can be discussed and some things can be asked/proposed, if some good sense is used: inform yourself a bit before requesting stuff that cannot be done (increased head-blob for instance), or that would break more than solve.

I know comparison with ACE1 is imminent, but please try and understand:

1. ArmA2 has some more commands and features to work on with (comparing with ArmA1 for instance)

2. ArmA2 still has some limitations in certain areas that you need to be aware of

3. in the end, it will be done as ACE dev team sees fit, no matter how many complains you put here - i guess you can say we know better somewhat, and by no means we are trying to screw it up for some weird reason.

4. feel free to do a proof-of-concept script/system/addon if you feel something needs to be done differently, and submit it. I am sure it will be looked over and annalyzed/compared.

Evil_Echo has said everything there was to be said on this subject anyways

[Cionara 10]

It's a game, like ACE 2 can not give you the effect of turning your head in real life and looking the same spot ingame. For that you need TrackIR or Freetrack.

With blackout I think is the same. Use a brick falling on your head instead of claiming it should be modded. Yo can't have that effect ingame ^^

[stebbi92 0]

I hope you aren't suggesting that 1 shot should not be able to kill the player. But in any case, the wounding system in ACE makes the game more forgiving. In stark contrast to A1/ACE, playing ArmA2 in MP was far more frustrating from a wounding standpoint.

In addition, I can think of so few times in my MP play experience with ACE/shacktack when I fell down unconscious. You know why? We don't carry too much gear and we rest at regular intervals when marching. The times I did black out where when I was carrying a very heavy loadout and marching up a hill and refusing to rest - since, as you said, I am only sitting in a chair at my computer.

Fact is, a feature like this forces the player to change the way the game must be successfully played - and this is exactly what we wanted. We understand that not everybody will like this and not everybody has to. Those who do not like the style of gameplay that ACE affords, simply do not have to play it.

I was one of few who loved this feature, because of this, i had to organize my loadout, carry only what i had to while other players were complaining when they couldn't take their Barrett with a full mag load and run. In my opinion this balanced the game a lot, and improved teamwork, as i often asked my teammates to carry extra rockets/ammo when i was at my limit.

[hitman07 10]

When does this come out? A release date on it? or is it "when its done"

[Colossus 2]

or is it "when its done"

Yes :)

[Delta 51 10]

subs, give it a rest, like jhonson said this is an ACE2 discussion thread and until it is released, it is a complete waste of time arguing and offering suggestions till you have actually played the next mod sufficiently to justify any problems.

[subs17 9]

That is IF you stay on topic...

And also can be discussed and some things can be asked/proposed, if some good sense is used: inform yourself a bit before requesting stuff that cannot be done (increased head-blob for instance), or that would break more than solve.

I know comparison with ACE1 is imminent, but please try and understand:

1. ArmA2 has some more commands and features to work on with (comparing with ArmA1 for instance)

2. ArmA2 still has some limitations in certain areas that you need to be aware of

3. in the end, it will be done as ACE dev team sees fit, no matter how many complains you put here - i guess you can say we know better somewhat, and by no means we are trying to screw it up for some weird reason.

4. feel free to do a proof-of-concept script/system/addon if you feel something needs to be done differently, and submit it. I am sure it will be looked over and annalyzed/compared.

Evil_Echo has said everything there was to be said on this subject anyways

My opinion is based on my own observations I look forward to ACE2 as it'll be interesting to see just how much further such features can be modeled and compared to real life. The ace team has done an awesome job with Ace for Arma and my comments about that fitness are merely areas that could be improved on. If you don't believe me about the Black outs then put some boots on yourself and go for a run put a pack on and see for yourself you would be surprised I think.

[scubaman3D 0]

... i often asked my teammates to carry extra rockets/ammo when i was at my limit.

Thank you for the comments, as this is exactly what we wanted to happen. Players are forced to depend on each other now. The machine gunner needs teammates to carry extra ammo, the AT gunner needs people to carry extra rockets, and so on.

In addition, since resources are more limited, this forces the player to mind their inventory and not run their ar's on full-auto all the time. And its important to share as well. As a medic, I might often hand out my extra mags to other players and there is sharing among fireteams as well.

[Defunkt 431]

I don't see anybody complaining about the intent only the implementation. There is a point where a feature is just not worth having if the engine won't allow it to be implemented appropriately, making characters blackout to enforce exhaustion is not appropriate. Thankfully there are better options in ArmA II, this discussion would be better served and end a lot quicker by talking about what can be done now rather than bagging/defending what was done before.

[hitman07 10]

It will prob come out Nov or Dec 2009

[scubaman3D 0]

... this discussion would be better served and end a lot quicker by talking about what can be done now rather than bagging/defending what was done before.

This discussion would be better served if individuals would read what's already been written on the subject. It would end a lot quicker if random people where were not previously involved in the discussion wouldn't do a drive by "shit on ACE mod feature x", with total disregard about whether or not they're just rehashing the same point over again - much like what you've done.

And the fact is that some people do have complaints about the intent. You're trying to tell me that nobody out there likes to lone-wolf in MP, and that the community is devoid of run-and-gunners? But wait, don't even respond to this question because in my mind, we can sum this discussion up by what pufu said :

3. in the end, it will be done as ACE dev team sees fit, no matter how many complains you put here - i guess you can say we know better somewhat, and by no means we are trying to screw it up for some weird reason.

A couple pages back, people actually had constructive criticism and good alternate ideas but now, you're right, I've only wasted precious moments responding to your post.

[Lhowon 10]

No offence but you're coming across as unnecessarily defensive. What is so hard to take about a simple criticism of a feature? Nobody here is "shitting" on any ACE feature, quite the opposite - we care enough about the mod to want to improve it.

We're your friends in this, we love ACE and want it to be the best it can be. Pointing out what we see as failings in the original is one of the best ways of identifying the areas most in need of improvement.

Yet instead of simply saying "there won't be blacking-out in ACE 2, we're looking at X instead" you get angry at anyone bring up the topic.

[Pegasus7 10]

To the guys that never played ArmA and ACE1.

Why do you even post here.

[Alex72 1]

Like Scubaman & co said already - they dont have to tell us shit if they dont want to. Its their mod and we should be damn thankful to get all that work for free to play with. Cant believe some of you actually "telling" ACE team what to do, and telling them to come here and have certain answers for us, and to change this and that... Did any of you pay for ACE? We all get a huge mod with years of work put in it for free.

Just by reading the feature list you can see that they added blurring to a lot of different events since ARMA2 have new effects to play with. They dont have to blackout anymore unless they want to ofcourse. Even if they do go with blackouts it will still be more realistic than how it is in stock ARMA wich is that you can run and run and run and run and... And it is still their decision. Not ours that doesnt work with the mod.

We have given our points of views on this matter. Ok some of us have and some just bitch, but what we can do now is to wait for it to come out - test it and go from there. No need in talking about this anymore unless someone comes up with a superb idea and can share it in an informative way.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Cross fingers that ACE2-AI will use most of the ACE2-features too. Btw what about some "info-food" like a teaser or a mp/coop-ingame vid? Would be interesting + good to see/hear ACE2 devs in combat. :)