ARMA 2 Micro AI Thread

[^Th0mas^ 10]

Err ... no. I remember the first OFP mission, the one you rode in the truck with other soldiers. That truck seemed to be driven by a drunk man!

The major difference now is that AI drives on the right side of the road instead than in the middle.

Pathfinding is just about the same.

A funny letdown is that now AI nearly overruns all the road signs it encounters :)

A drunk AI simulator that is ;)

[TangoRomeo 10]

A funny letdown is that now AI nearly overruns all the road signs it encounters

If it was only road signs ... :D

[st!gar 3]

I can assure you that AI will eventually lean out of trees (at least some tree models), since i've seen that many times.

You can't really judge how effectively the AI uses cover from my video, since there is no actual opposition. However i can tell you that normally in a combat session AI is not 100% perfect in taking cover, as you may expect.

Sometimes it does it just fine, other times it fails.

If cover is scarce or too far then it just behaves like it did in ARMA, it simply lies down and/or run.

Thanks for the info. :)

[Scrub 0]

I can assure you that AI will eventually lean out of trees (at least some tree models), since i've seen that many times.

You can't really judge how effectively the AI uses cover from my video, since there is no actual opposition. However i can tell you that normally in a combat session AI is not 100% perfect in taking cover, as you may expect.

Sometimes it does it just fine, other times it fails.

If cover is scarce or too far then it just behaves like it did in ARMA, it simply lies down and/or run.

That's the way I played last night when I got caught with my pants down in the middle of a field of grass. Nothing much you CAN do but hit the deck and try to fire back. I learned my lesson for about the 10,000th time, and went from cover to cover around such dying grounds. I'm glad the AI isn't TOO perfect yet. It's still a steep learning curve from A1. When I see a unit, I think I've a few seconds, or longer, before it reacts. Not so.

[trini scourge 1]

For those worried about AI seeing through buildings and terrain here is a video about the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6mI410K_ZU

Here is the mission file to test yourself: http://www.mediafire.com/?z11buitwh6n

[lapa 1]

For those worried about AI seeing through buildings and terrain here is a video about the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6mI410K_ZU

Here is the mission file to test yourself: http://www.mediafire.com/?z11buitwh6n

You didn't test how the AI reacts when you kill one of them and they actually (and in some cases, instantly) spot you (and fire uber precise shots), which is the behaviour some have complained about. In this video the AI becomes aware of your general direction and behaves accordingly. This is, however, not the issue with the "uber" AI.

Nonetheless, your vid is very illuminating and shows how good Arma2's AI can be.

[fabrizio_t 58]

Now it's sadly time for some not-so-good impressions about the AI.

I tried running some simple missions involving a fight through a forested area. So far i am not pleased by the result at all.

The AI seems really not able do do a good job into forests. It tends not using cover at all.

It's a shame, since ive seen AI taking advantage of tree cover many times. It just seems that it won't do that properly in forests though.

Cover mechanics seem screwed too. Please try that out, i am out of time :(

Another thing is bugging me more and more ... in combat AI groups tend to spread really too much on terrain and quickly lose their cohesion.

In a matter of minutes the units start to move and engage individually, not as a whole anymore.

The bigger the group, the faster that happens. So far i've noticed that small groups of 4-6 units work better.

12 men groups end with half of the units just running back and forth without a clue of what is going on.

Last rant: we still have a serious problem with AI group leaders, inherited from ARMA. They just run in front of their groups, lose contact with squaddies and get dead too soon.

Alse they don't care if you tell the group to move with LIMITED speed.

I Still think the AI is nice and better than in ARMA, but thes issues are high in my fixes wishlist.

Edited June 8, 2009 by fabrizioT

[walker 0]

You didn't test how the AI reacts when you kill one of them and they actually (and in some cases, instantly) spot you (and fire uber precise shots), which is the behaviour some have complained about. In this video the AI becomes aware of your general direction and behaves accordingly. This is, however, not the issue with the "uber" AI.

Nonetheless, your vid is very illuminating and shows how good Arma2's AI can be.

Hi lapa

Repeat his experiment with same mission and the variation you are suggesting. Fire at the AI and hit one. Then teleport. and use his included script to see. What happens.

I suspect all that is happening is that loosing one of their own is programmed in to goad them into extra action so they actually suppress an unseen targets location. As distinct from over watching and flanking the probable position until the sniper reveals their position or they are spotted.

I do not have ArmA II I am waiting until the 505 release so I can not test it.

Thank you trini scourge for actually doing a proper experiment. :cheers:

Kind Regards walker

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Also I'd like to see if the results vary depending on:

* Yourself is a sniper or a rifleman with scoped weapon (camoflage value).

* Night or day. (Visibility check).

* AI squad has scoped weapons (optically assisted detection).

* AI squad has a sniper onboard ('counter sniping').

Personally, although I can't play the game yet, I'm convinced the AI doesn't 'cheat' in this respect. I am convinced they may cheat regarding how reveal works, but that's a program bug, not a deliberate cheat.

[lapa 1]

I do not have ArmA II I am waiting until the 505 release so I can not test it.

We're in the same boat ;)

[whisper 0]

Also I'd like to see if the results vary depending on:

* Yourself is a sniper or a rifleman with scoped weapon (camoflage value).

* Night or day. (Visibility check).

* AI squad has scoped weapons (optically assisted detection).

* AI squad has a sniper onboard ('counter sniping').

Personally, although I can't play the game yet, I'm convinced the AI doesn't 'cheat' in this respect. I am convinced they may cheat regarding how reveal works, but that's a program bug, not a deliberate cheat.

I think you're right. Tested the mission with a marksman instead of sniper, the AI can spot standing people in their front arc (smtg like 30-40° off their view target) up to 700m as far as I've seen.

Something else, group communicates, so ofc, as soon as a group members spots you, all group memebrs know your position

[st!gar 3]

The AI seems really not able do do a good job into forests. It tends not using cover at all.

It's a shame, since ive seen AI taking advantage of tree cover many times. It just seems that it won't do that properly in forests though.

Awww, fuck it. That's a huge turn-off right there. :mad_o:

Edited June 9, 2009 by St!gar

[mr.g-c 6]

Well here i have made a Video Sniping with a Ghillie suit from more than 500m distance.

Like you can see and hear, after i fired the FIRST ROUND, lying below a bush prone, they still could detect me instantly and firing on me. This is typical for the cheating AI.

Then the way they take cover is bugged.... i don't know what to do if you and your team are under sniper fire in RL, but i would clearly not advance through the open field!

Then they are going prone in the middle of anywhere and i can shoot one after each other...

[whisper 0]

You put AI on max skill and ask for it to stay easy bait ... oO

lil rant on : You clearly do not enjoy the game, I suggest you drop it and keep going with ACE.

[Killerwatt 0]

Well here i have made a Video Sniping with a Ghillie suit from more than 500m distance.

Like you can see and hear, after i fired the FIRST ROUND, lying below a bush prone, they still could detect me instantly and firing on me. This is typical for the cheating AI.

Sorry, but that video does not prove the AI cheated. When you fired the first shot some of the enemy soldiers were directly facing you, so could easily have seen your muzzle flash.

[ilovebeer 0]

I just found this video, very nice video. It proves that the AI does not acually cheat. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6mI410K_ZU

[Sam75 0]

AI doing better with faster CPUs ? seems to be the case to me

[whisper 0]

AI doing better with faster CPUs ? seems to be the case to me

I'd say so too. Definitely doing more stupid things / being clueless (going back toward ArmA1 behavior) under CPU-intensive conditions

[Scrub 0]

I just found this video, very nice video. It proves that the AI does not acually cheat. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6mI410K_ZU

Yup. That was a solid experiment. I'd like to see a few more to understand the AI. I'll try to rig something up in the next few days.

[Leopardi 0]

Well here i have made a Video Sniping with a Ghillie suit from more than 500m distance.

Like you can see and hear, after i fired the FIRST ROUND, lying below a bush prone, they still could detect me instantly and firing on me. This is typical for the cheating AI.

Then the way they take cover is bugged.... i don't know what to do if you and your team are under sniper fire in RL, but i would clearly not advance through the open field!

Then they are going prone in the middle of anywhere and i can shoot one after each other...

The AI does not cheat. They hear u or see ur muzzle flash so they suppress that direction. See that other video posted above

[turin turambar 0]

The AI doesn't cheat in a meaning, as it uses their vision and hearing to locate you. The problem is the range and accuracy of these senses, somewhat superhuman. In that sense, yes, it cheats. But it is more a subjetive thing.

[whisper 0]

Let's be honest too, they have quite good spotting capabilities. Like I said, I used the test mission linked above yesterday, replaced the ghillie suit with a normal camo, placed myself seomwhere in view, shot a guy, the team came chasing after me, I teleported out of view, checked their reaction (exactly like in the vid in fact, and result is no different), then teleported somewhere else roughly in the front arc of incoming AIs, standing, something like 700m away.

It took them around 2 seconds to spot me again. At 700m, I think it's a bit fast.

EDIT : Something else, they will spot you very fast if you appear to come back in sight in their real frontal arc (30° from original position or so).

In fact, something to remember, they'll try to calculate your movement (you often see your target designator moving when asked by leader, it's the path prevision of your target) in advance and base their aiming and attack on this. So if you appear to move in the same way they think you'll move, you're spotted almost instantly as soon as you're out of cover.

3rd point, do we know the LoD for vegetation protection? If the same as in ArmA1, then trees do not offer as much cover as we may think. When going up 700m away in a forest thinking you're safe, you may not be, which will obviously make you think the AI is cheating (long range standing-ennemies spotting + ability to see through edge of foliage)

Edited June 9, 2009 by whisper

[arigram 0]

3rd point, do we know the LoD for vegetation protection? If the same as in ArmA1, then trees do not offer as much cover as we may think. When going up 700m away in a forest thinking you're safe, you may not be, which will obviously make you think the AI is cheating (long range standing-ennemies spotting + ability to see through edge of foliage)

Arma 1 and Arma 2:

In the first picture you see the results, color parts shows components, how they're located by Linda - ArmA 2 (right), gray picture original geometry LOD fom Armed Assault (left). See how much more precise it is, much more then the original hand made one in Armed Assault. We hope that it will resolve most of the ingame troubles, such as: "I can see but not shoot, or AI can spot me though dense vegetation...".

...

Impact on gameplay

In our engine the AI try to spot you through the View Geometry, just a small part of your body is enough to be able to recognize and track you. When this view geometry is not masking foliage well, the chance that you will be spotted is high. Another problem is Fire Geometry, there were just trunk not foliage components, so for example, when you were hidden in some bushes and the AI saw you, looked to Fire Geometry to see if it can open fire, this geometry was empty, so they started to shoot. Empty foliage Fire Geometry also allows you to throw grenades or shoot rockets into the vegetation as if to an open space, all these things will now work better and more correctly. The reason why we do this now is that making geometry for vegetation is not a simple task. On a typical model you can use resolution LODs as reference for the volume of these special geometry LODs, but with vegetation making that from some billboards or crossing planes it's not that easy. Making correct vegetation volume manually is very time consuming, difficult and in fact impossible. There is lot of math work in the background, that allow this automatization on vegetation models.

http://www.bistudio.com/developers-blog/arma2-vegetation-progress-2-3_en.html

Edited June 9, 2009 by arigram

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Did anyone try reading out the groups knowsAbout value?

A norwegian sniper team consisting of M82/M107 with HEAPI (multipurpose) ammunition, one 'regular' M24/M40 like 7.62 sniper platform (unsure of the specific type), and one scoped AG3 7.62 assault weapon (close pretection, spotter like?) engaged a group of about 40 Taliban fighters in Afghanistan. They estimated distance to 1380m iirc. When the .50 cal took out the first target, there was a little bit of confusion. When the second round hit, the group new exectly where they was and engaged them in vehicles from three flanks. In the open? Oh yes, no other choice. Constantly laying supression fire? Oh yes, so close that sand were thrown up in the shooters faces. They picked off several targets before they were forced to disengage, and call for artillery support to supress them. They got away and lived to tell the tale.

One shot, one kill, then evade. This is the tactics employed for a sniper team operating on their own. The norwegians was probably on an observation mission, spotted the enemy as was cleared to engage thinking the distance would be sufficiant. It wasn't :)

The whole thing changes once the sniper team is out on a support mission, supporting own troops. Now the enemy has something else to worry about as well, and the snipers chances improves for staying in the area, unless they decide to mortar his ass.

[fabrizio_t 58]

Let's be honest too, they have . Like I said, I used the test mission linked above yesterday, replaced the ghillie suit with a normal camo, placed myself seomwhere in view, shot a guy, the team came chasing after me, I teleported out of view, checked their reaction (exactly like in the vid in fact, and result is no different), then teleported somewhere else roughly in the front arc of incoming AIs, standing, something like 700m away.

It took them around 2 seconds to spot me again. At 700m, I think it's a bit fast.

EDIT : Something else, they will spot you very fast if you appear to come back in sight in their real frontal arc (30° from original position or so).

In fact, something to remember, they'll try to calculate your movement (you often see your target designator moving when asked by leader, it's the path prevision of your target) in advance and base their aiming and attack on this. So if you appear to move in the same way they think you'll move, you're spotted almost instantly as soon as you're out of cover.

3rd point, do we know the LoD for vegetation protection? If the same as in ArmA1, then trees do not offer as much cover as we may think. When going up 700m away in a forest thinking you're safe, you may not be, which will obviously make you think the AI is cheating (long range standing-ennemies spotting + ability to see through edge of foliage)

"quite good spotting capabilities" is quite a good euphemism ;).

Seriously, i have to agree on both your points.